The Sixerfan1976 Off-Season Thread (Update: Page 61)

[bebopdeluxe]

tk -

I'm sure the tax played some role in it...but since Comcast/Snider is eating EFJ's contract AND paying some decent coin to Collins, I'll give them a "Get Out of Jail Free" card on this one. I still think that when Collins told them before he took the job that changes needed to be made to the roster, Sammy was numero uno on his "get this guy off the roster" list, and that was the main motivation behind the deal.

[HotSauce77]

It seems like Sammy's bad practice habits, desire to be traded, and less than 100% positive influence in the locker room, made moving him before his contract was up a preferable option. That being said, I'm not sure if taking on as much salary as we did for a back up SF/PF who is on the downside of his career was a wise move. It's a judgment call - if Stefanski believes Hawes is a legitimate NBA starting center, the move is a no brainer. He has certainly shown flashes. It took Brad Miller a few years to get it and he was an undrafted free agent. Hawes is already a good jump shooter for the C spot and a solid passer. He was drafted because he had soft hands and decent foot work with some solid post moves. He has been too weak to hold position in the post and his work on the boards has been less than inspiring. That being said, he's still a very young kid and if he continues to work at getting stronger, he certainly has the talent to be a solid starting NBA center. It's one of those moves where as fans, we pretty much have no choice but to hold off reservations. If Hawes turns into a legit starting center, it was a very good move. If he doesn't, it was another cap related blunder.

[Sixerscan]

We will never know, but IMO Sam was traded to get under the tax. They basically gave up on any cap space next summer in exchange for getting under the tax this year.

I'm not condemning it- because tax motivated trades like this happen all of the time- and it was a better option than giving away one of the young players. But I would not praise the move or read too much into it. I would think that given the choice Collins would take having a quality post defender/rebounder over having none. But Sam was not part of the teams long term plans anyway- so it is not a big deal. Just more an example of how this team will be hamstrung and against the cap until Brand's contract expires.

They made that trade before everyone found out the tax/cap was going to be higher than expected. From taking a look at their salaries I'm pretty sure they would have been under even with Sam now.

Even if they were going to be over the tax, maybe they shouldn't have traded for Jodie Meeks.

They aren't hamstrung against the cap. They would have been under the cap next summer... by a lot... more than when they signed Brand... had they not made that trade. They force themselves to be hamstrung against the cap by never thinking beyond the present season.

[Sixerscan]

Relative to the bozos who have been running/coaching this team for the past few years, given Collins' track record he can make WHATEVER roster demands he wants, IMO. Givne his job the past few years (which he did so well that he's in the HOF), he probably knows the players in this league as well as many pro personnel guys or GM's out there, and I abso-freaking-lutely respect his basketball knowledge more that the yabo that is currently the Sixers GM. How about you?

I think this is ridiculous to argue about because we don't know who decided Sam to be gone and to suppose a big conspiracy is pointless.

Doug Collins announced one NBA game a week. The same 10-15 teams play the National games every week. Many teams never get national games, including our heroes. So throughout his travels, I am willing to bet he hasn't seen Sam play live since when we had Iverson. I'm not sure how often the Kings have been on TNT since Hawes got there but I'm pretty sure it's minimal as well.

I don't know how his announcing gig prepares him for being a coach/making personel decisions. Kerr was pretty shaky in Phoenix (Although that had a lot to do with their owner sucking). I do know however that Rick Pitino and Kevin McHale were some of the best announcers of the last 20 years and they were horrible at putting teams together.

So short answer... jury is still out on Collins. He can talk a good game, but so could Stefanski once upon a time. Now he's the village idiot.

To me, this trade isn't about cap room in the summer of 2011 or having a shotblocker behind J/T/I (although I would be more than happy to debate you on both of those points)...it was about getting Sammy as far away from this roster as possible - both for the direct benefits (i.e. having a guy like Hawes or Brand at the 5 who has a freaking clue when it comes to running offensive sets) as well as the indirect benefits (in terms of getting Speights, Lou, Thad and others to tighten the f up). If Hawes turns out to be something, that's just bonus points for me.

I understand. Here's the thing; they didn't trade him right before training camp.They traded him in June. They didn't even wait for the draft or free agency. I refuse to believe they couldn't have gotten equal amounts of expiring contacts back for him if they waited. I feel like they literally accepted the first offer they were given. They're basically paying $17 million over the next two years (Hawes and Noc's contracts) to try Hawes out for a year and see if they want to give him more money next summer.

It just shows a lack of patience or vision.

[tk76]

HotSauce77, I agree that the trade depends a lot on how Hawes turns out.

Scan, taking into account Young's cap hold, they would have only been at 55M before the Sammy trade. Actually 57M when you include the cost of their 2011 first round pick. If they renounced Young and let him walk they would be at 47M. Either way, that is not much under the cap- and we don't even know what the new cap rules will be.

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/philadelphia.htm
41.5M for Brand/Iguodala/Lou/Turner
5.5M for Speights/Jrue/Meeks
============================================
47M + 8M Cap hold for Thad + 2-3M for 2011 #1 pick = 57M

[Sixerscan]

They'd have 45.2-ish without Meeks. That's about $13 million based on this year. Unlike Iguodala, Young doesn't seem like he is going to get a very big contract, and I have reservations about whether or not he should be brought back after last year. We'll see. I forgot about the first round pick. Maybe they won't have a lot of cap room, but they would have been under next summer had it not been for Nocioni being on the team. So instead of paying Nocioni his salary, they could have given it to someone a 2-3 year deal who isn't awful.

There is no scenario in CBA bargaining where paying Andres Nocioni $7 million ends up being an intelligent decision.

[tk76]

Agree with what you are saying. Even if they only had a few million of space- that can be turned into draft picks liike Presti has done, by absorbing other teams short term contracts to allow them to get under the tax.

Stefanski himself extolled the value of cap space when he first took the job... This was Stefanski in 2008:

"We're in a position right now where we want to go into the Summer with cap space. Right now, we're at a low of $10M in cap space, a high of $12M depending on where the league number comes in. We are under the cap and our options are much, much more liberal than they would be if we were over the cap. We can use this money either to sign a free agent, or to trade, with a player or without a player, to another team in a situation where that team doesn't have to take money on. If you look around the league, there are always teams that are unhappy with what went on. They're spending a lot of money on their players, and you know, it's just not working so let's see if we can get rid of a guy or two. We'll be situated in the Summer so that if an opportunity like this arises, we can seize that opportunity. We feel that it's really important that with the team we have, it's crucial that we have this flexibility.

http://www.depressedfan.com/basketball/ ... -ed-st.php

[bebopdeluxe]

I hear all of the points being made about cap space and how this trade impacts it...bvut I still think the bottom line is that Collins only wants people on this roster who aspire to do more than show up, joke around in shootaround and collect a paycheck. He wants players who aspire to be great...and are willing to put in the work to make it happen.

That is NOT Samuel Dalembert. No way, shape or how.

Could they have waited until later this offseason to make a better deal? Perhaps. But I'm not going to second-guess the thought process...as I said, it is a breath of fresh air for this franchise, and I welcome it.

[HartfordWhalers]

I hear all of the points being made about cap space and how this trade impacts it...bvut I still think the bottom line is that Collins only wants people on this roster who aspire to do more than show up, joke around in shootaround and collect a paycheck. He wants players who aspire to be great...and are willing to put in the work to make it happen.

That is NOT Samuel Dalembert. No way, shape or how.

Could they have waited until later this offseason to make a better deal? Perhaps. But I'm not going to second-guess the thought process...as I said, it is a breath of fresh air for this franchise, and I welcome it.

Then they could have told him to stay away, and bought him out. In no way was this trade needed to have Sammy away from the team, so I just don't get the logic of approving the whole trade on this basis.

They instead gave up 6.5 million in cap space next year (Noc) to be able to have Hawes for a year and as a restricted FA next offseason. That is a big flier on Hawes. {And they got under the LT which isn't a small thing.}

I'm hoping Hawes plays great and makes it a good deal, and sorry to repeat myself, but I cannot understand judging a trade in which players go in and out by just one side of it.

[tk76]

bvut I still think the bottom line is that Collins only wants people on this roster who aspire to do more than show up, joke around in shootaround and collect a paycheck. He wants players who aspire to be great...and are willing to put in the work to make it happen.

My counter:

Sam Amick of the Sacramento Bee breaks the news that Spencer Hawes will not, in fact, play in Summer League, despite the Kings putting his name on the roster. Geoff Petrie actually seems fairly pissed off by Geoff Petrie standards.

"We have, for the most part, five roster players here, and we're going to be a young team and having a new coach and a new staff. Certainly a good part of what we were trying to accomplish is to prepare those (players) better for the start of training camp and let the coaching staff get their first feel of them as players, and they can start to put in things that they're going to do in fall camp. I think it's valuable and completely productive."

This is disappointing -- from all angles, the communication should be better. Hawes should have made sure the team knew he wouldn't be available (he claims a "family commitment," though he'll be in Vegas on Monday, just five days after training camp began), and the team should have made sure Hawes, a third-year player, would be ready to go.

But the bigger disappointment comes from Hawes' apparent lack of love for the game.

http://www.sactownroyalty.com/2009/7/9/ ... mer-league

Spencer has intrigued and frustrated Kings fans who see so much potential in him for the last 3 years. The biggest problem with Spencer have revolved around work ethic and attitude. This year especially, he had various disputes with the Kings organization and Paul Westphal about his inconsistent playing time and his decision not to attend the Vegas Summer League.

http://www.libertyballers.com/2010/6/17 ... -noc-hawes

Quotes are from Aykis16 and Ziller, editors at the SBN Kings Blog Sactown Royalty.

[tk76]

One more, from the post season wrap up at the blog "Kings Kingdom":

News that Spencer Hawes was going to miss the rest of the season due to a knee injury at the beginning of April was unfortunately met with a positive reaction from Kings fans. The Sacramento Bee article about his season-ending left knee injury meant the Kings would lose their starting center, but it also brought out all of those folks who loved to bash Brad Miller and Kevin Martin for being “soft.” “And Kevin Martin is the fragile one…,” said one reader. Another reader called Hawes a “soft, immature, lazy loser.” On Facebook, people “liked” the status update from the Bee that he would miss the remainder of the season.

Ouch.

The next couple of years could be rough for Hawes if he doesn’t step his toughness up. That all rests on if the Kings decide to sign him to a long-term deal as well. He has been quoted as saying being tough like Jon Brockman “just isn’t part of his game.” Maybe that is true.

http://kingskingdom.com/2010/04/19/the- ... s-2009-10/


Its great we got rid of a lazy bum like Sam in order to travel down the same road hoping our young center will mature and find passion for the game.

[bebopdeluxe]

I hear all of the points being made about cap space and how this trade impacts it...bvut I still think the bottom line is that Collins only wants people on this roster who aspire to do more than show up, joke around in shootaround and collect a paycheck. He wants players who aspire to be great...and are willing to put in the work to make it happen.

That is NOT Samuel Dalembert. No way, shape or how.

Could they have waited until later this offseason to make a better deal? Perhaps. But I'm not going to second-guess the thought process...as I said, it is a breath of fresh air for this franchise, and I welcome it.

Then they could have told him to stay away, and bought him out. In no way was this trade needed to have Sammy away from the team, so I just don't get the logic of approving the whole trade on this basis.

They instead gave up 6.5 million in cap space next year (Noc) to be able to have Hawes for a year and as a restricted FA next offseason. That is a big flier on Hawes. {And they got under the LT which isn't a small thing.}

I'm hoping Hawes plays great and makes it a good deal, and sorry to repeat myself, but I cannot understand judging a trade in which players go in and out by just one side of it.

Fair point about telling him to stay away/buying him out...and I am not saying that getting under the LT is absolutely NOT a factor. I am sure that plays a role. I think that the combination of not paying the tax and getting a guy that Collins believes has potential (Hawes) offsets the impact of Noc's salary next year...in addition to the obvious impact of having Sammy gone as far as setting the tone that Collins wants from the jump. I would agree that if Hawes is an absolute bust, then the trade looks bad. As with many things that we have been discussing around here lately, we may have to wait until January before we have a better sense of things.

[HartfordWhalers]

Fair point about telling him to stay away/buying him out...and I am not saying that getting under the LT is absolutely NOT a factor. I am sure that plays a role. I think that the combination of not paying the tax and getting a guy that Collins believes has potential (Hawes) offsets the impact of Noc's salary next year...in addition to the obvious impact of having Sammy gone as far as setting the tone that Collins wants from the jump. I would agree that if Hawes is an absolute bust, then the trade looks bad. As with many things that we have been discussing around here lately, we may have to wait until January before we have a better sense of things.

I think we will just have to fundamentally disagree here. In January we will see if it it is working out, but I think we need to judge if its a smart bet now.
If you put all your money on #11 on a roulette wheel in Vegas, I think the decision right then is a bad gamble. I don't think you have to wait until it lands on #12, to see the final result to judge whether a risky gamble was a smart gamble to take. And if it does land on #11, I'm feeling you were lucky, not smart.
Some good gambles fail and some bad gambles work, but I would much rather judge the GM based on the quality of the gamble he takes then the lucky or unlucky result.

[Skates]

Most teams wouldn't take Sammy even when we were trying to give him away. Noc's 2012 salary is a team option so his deal will be an expiring one next year which could be movable for team trying to cut salary for 2012, so it is not as bad as it looks. Plus who knows how much of his salary will ever be paid in 2011 given the likely lockout.

Hawes is a talented, 7'0" tall flawed shot in the dark. If he wasn't overly soft he would never be available given his skill set. Every once in a while a team needs to pull off an Eric Snow trade where the guy you get exceeds expectation and really does play better with a change of scenery. Ron Anderson was another guy the Sixers got that way who blossomed as a Sixer. If Hawes finally puts it all together and becomes a solid starter or top reserve, great. If not, then he is an expiring contract and the kind of guy Collins can easily bury at the end of the bench with little fanfare. Benching Sammy OTOH always created an uproar.

Dalembert was going one way or another. The Kings were one of the few teams to ever show interest. even with cap room it will likely be another year or two before the Sixers become an attractive FA destination and lots of other teams will have cap room next year.

Hopefully Stefanski's contract expires before the Sixers make any further big money commitments in FA, that might be the most important expiring contract of all.

[bebopdeluxe]

Fair point about telling him to stay away/buying him out...and I am not saying that getting under the LT is absolutely NOT a factor. I am sure that plays a role. I think that the combination of not paying the tax and getting a guy that Collins believes has potential (Hawes) offsets the impact of Noc's salary next year...in addition to the obvious impact of having Sammy gone as far as setting the tone that Collins wants from the jump. I would agree that if Hawes is an absolute bust, then the trade looks bad. As with many things that we have been discussing around here lately, we may have to wait until January before we have a better sense of things.

I think we will just have to fundamentally disagree here. In January we will see if it it is working out, but I think we need to judge if its a smart bet now.
If you put all your money on #11 on a roulette wheel in Vegas, I think the decision right then is a bad gamble. I don't think you have to wait until it lands on #12, to see the final result to judge whether a risky gamble was a smart gamble to take. And if it does land on #11, I'm feeling you were lucky, not smart.
Some good gambles fail and some bad gambles work, but I would much rather judge the GM based on the quality of the gamble he takes then the lucky or unlucky result.

There are several issues here - 1) does getting under the LT this year and taking a one-year flyer on Hawes equal Noc's 2011-12 salary? 2) How important was getting Sammy off the team in terms of changing team chemistry/sending a message to the rest of the roster? 3) Will losing a measure of cap flexibility next summer keep the team from adding a key piece for the future? And 4) will the team be better with Hawes/Nocioni than with Sammy?

My answers are:

1) A qualified yes (unless Hawes is an absolute bust);
2) VERY important (the key reason for the trade, IMO);
3) Probably (although there was no guarantee that we were going to add a great piece anyway);
4) I think so

Net-net, some good aspects to the deal (particularly when it comes to team chemistry), but with the loss of some bullets next summer. As I said, I need to wait until January to make a more definitive call.

[Sixerscan]

I don't think you understand how much easier it is to build a team when you are under the cap.

If a team is over the cap, they are essentially limited to their own players and people who are willing to sign for the MLE or less. This forces teams to overpay their own players who will command more than the MLE because they have no real way to replace them.

If you remember, this was the main defense as to why the Sixers overpaid Dalembert 5 years ago; they had no way to acquire another center. Another example this summer is John Salmons resigning with the Bucks. He's not worth $8 million a year, but the Bucks had to give him that because he fills a major role for them and the Bucks had no real way to replace him if he signed elsewhere.

Now, instead of having options, the Sixers are likely going to be forced into a corner of having to resign Thad and Hawes, even though neither have shown the ability to be starters in this league. With Iggy, Brand, Thad, and Hawes, along with the rookie contracts, it's likely they aren't going to have cap room again until Brand's contract expires.

This is all the same circular pattern that the Sixers have been following since the Larry Brown days. They never give themselves any kind of flexibility, so they are forced to either hold onto their flawed talent for too long or trade it for similarly flawed talent. This is why we always have replaceable bench players signed to 5 year deals.

If they wanted to dump Dalembert, that would have been fine. But they should have waited longer than mid June and let a market develop.

[Slacktard]

All those little incidents with Hawes is why Charles Barkley calls him a spoiled little kid who needs to man up.

[bebopdeluxe]

Sixerscan:

How many teams are materially under the cap this summer with nobody of REAL value to spend it on? While I do understand how important it is to be under the cap, I also look at basically pizzing a year away with EFJ (actually, it is worse than that...as several players actually REGRESSED under his watch) and I am thrilled that Collins is running a ship of accountability and hard work - two concepts that Dalembert has shown ZERO grasp of during the majority of his NBA career. As somebody else said, if Hawes doesn't work out, we just bench him and ride him out until the deadline or let him walk after the season. If Sammy doesn't work out, and we start the season with him, what does that do in terms of team chemistry? Is is a distraction that the media and bloggers run with every day? You betcha. Better to move on now - before Collins even gets started remaking the personality of this team.

They've been trying to trade the guy for the better part of two seasons - and got no takers. The only team that was even remotely interested were the Kings...and there is no guarantee that we would have found anybody else before the season started. Could we have moved him by the deadline? Perhaps - but given the relatively weaker FA crop next summer and the fact that a bunch of teams who cleared cap room for this summer got a whole lot of NOTHING for their efforts (at least so far) suggests that there may not have been anything of REAL value if we waited until the deadline to move Sammy...and, at best, we would have delayed the inevitable (moving forward abouyt Sammy)...and, at worst, we could have dealt with months of distractions until Sammy was gone.

I guess a buyout could have been a better option...and this is where what we get out of Hawes and Nocioni will determine whether making the trade was worse than just cutting Sammy. I am willing to wait until January to assess that question.

[Sixerscan]

Dalembert was not an expiring contract these last two years. It's completely different.

You said it yourself that Stefanski has been trying to trade him for two years. I don't see why you are choosing to put this dumb move all on Collins.

By the way once again, anyone that thinks Collins is some sort of hardass is kidding themselves. This is the guy who Jordan once said to a bunch of guys at an all-star game "You may think you've got problems with your coaches but, well, mine cries every day."

the fact that a bunch of teams who cleared cap room for this summer got a whole lot of NOTHING for their efforts (at least so far) suggests that there may not have been anything of REAL value if we waited until the deadline to move Sammy

Can you be specific? As far as I can see, everyone who had cap room going into the summer with plans to spend improved themselves. Besides the Clippers. Than again, it is the Clippers. Even the Nets got some decent role players. The point is flexibility can't be a bad thing, and paying Nocioni $7 million can't be a good thing. And Hawes is soft and apparently spoiled.

[radrmd216]

Sixerfan, are the Sixers interested in Rudy Fernandez? Also is there any trades involving Kapono being talked about or trading the TPE?