Retro POY '78-79 (Voting Complete)

[Sedale Threatt]

I'd like to hear more about Elvin Hayes. His numbers are outstanding, but you rarely hear him mentioned among the all-time greats despite his inclusion in the Top 50. Especially when compared to the other great PFs -- Garnett, Barkley, Malone, McHale, etc. (Duncan's always been a center to me, so I don't include him here.) Was he really that bad a teammate? Did he really choke that much, enough to deserve Peter Vescey's nickname for him -- Silent E?

[penbeast0]

He isn't talked about as much because he played in the 70s and didn't come over well in public (Jordan was as annoying but he gave good interviews and had great PR throughout his career). He did tend to whine and sulk, one teammate said being around him was like Chinese water torture. On the other hand, he was a true mentor to Moses Malone in his hometown of Houston even before being traded back to the Rockets.

The choking thing was overdone, though it was always brought up on the radio when I was growing up too. He was not a great percentage shooter and was vulnerable to doubleteams; plus he went to the line a lot and shot in the 60s which meant a lot of missed free throws in clutch time. He was a player who was pretty much "you get what you see" -- great rebounding, volume scoring, good defense -- put up big numbers on bad Rockets teams then good numbers on good Bullets teams where he was always the main focus. And, the Bullets went to more finals in the 70s than any other team though they were only 1 for 3.

Stylistically, E was really a center, much like Duncan, and played like one. Back to the basket scorer, dominant inside post defender, physical rebounder and good shotblocker. Unseld was actually the PF (played up around the top of the key or down low for garbage points) but he was established as the center already when they traded for Hayes so they called Hayes a PF.

[andykeikei]

I have been watching this season's final Bullets vs Sonics game 5. Lots of players that I am not familiar with (except DJ and Sikma), but I was really impressed with the plays of Gus Williams, Elvin Hayes, Bob Dandridge.

Gus Williams had some magical touches and crafty dribbles, combining with his pace he was pretty hard to stop despite being only 6-2. He was Sonics best player.

Elvin Hayes shot awful lot, but with good accuracy (different from what I heard, but he sure used his turnaround Js a lot, in fact I don't even recall him had another scoring moves...) and those were good attempts too. He rebounded really well and bother the opponentd with his length. He was Bullets best player.

Bob Dandridge was called "Mr. Clutch" by the announcers because of his heroics in the previous series. He was the one who step up when the Bullets went into a scoring drought.

Young DJ played pretty wild, sometimes would forced some really tough shots that result in airballs. But he indeed had a good vertical that helped launch his fadeaway. He was quick and played good defense already in this stage of his career.

Young Sikma had a midrange J, defended well and rebounded great (leading rebounder of the series from what I heard from the announcers, which was pretty impressive considering he was going against Unseld and Hayes), just like his older self.


I am curious though, for those that who have seen Gus Williams and Earl Monroe played in their primes, who was considered a better player?

[lorak]

1. KAJ
2. GG
3. Moses
4. Marques
5. Dr J

[penbeast0]

Monroe came into the NBA with an incredible street rep; his street name wasn't actually "Earl the Pearl," it was "Black Jesus." He had moves rarely seen, his signature move was a spin move or frequently two or three of them with shifts and reverses in traffic. He got a ton of press early before settling into a decent but not spectacular career with the Knicks.

Gus Williams came in without the hype, on a small market team. He was for almost 10 years, the #1 offensive threat on one of the best teams in the NBA (though I would argue that Sikma was the most important Sonic; and DJ nearly as important as Gus), I think he had easily the better pro career though Monroe is still the better known.

[Sedale Threatt]

Playing on the East Coast, and the Knicks in particular, didn't hurt, or the fact that he had so much style, as you noted. In that regard, he reminds me of certain musicians or film directors, in that it wasn't what they did as much as how they did it that impressed.

From what I've read, he seems to get as much credit or more for revolutionizing the game for anything he actually did on the court. Frankly, when I really committed to learning about the game he was one of the legends I was least impressed with, he and Lenny Wilkens. Those guys over Dominique in the Top 50 is a crime, in my opinion.

Recognizing innovators is important, but at the end of the day Monroe and Dominique were both scorers, and the former had one 25-point season and the latter had 10. Not even a contest. Williams seems cut from the same cloth -- really, really good, but not great.

[shawngoat23]

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. George Gervin
3. Moses Malone
4. Julius Erving
5. Elvin Hayes

I really wasn't super impressed with any of the individual performances this year. I think I'm pretty set with my top 3 guys; dropped Malone a bit more than his stats and accolades would suggest because I'm deferring to what other people are saying about his intangibles and limitations.

Erving is more of a "comfort" pick at #4, because I don't really see anything that makes him stand out this year, so I'm giving a nod to him because I know the guy is one of the best players to ever lace them up. (And the team was somewhat flawed this year.) I could easily be convinced to change this.

I admit I kind of just threw a dart at the board for Elvin Hayes, also being a recognizable name on arguably the berst team in the league.

I also considered Bob Dandridge, Jack Sikma, Gus Williams, and Paul Westphal for the last slot and couldn't think of anything to differentiate them.

[Dr Positivity]

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Julius Erving
3. George Gervin
4. Moses Malone
5. Marques Johnson

Kareem was the easy #1 for me. Dominant player on both ends.

I put Erving 2nd despite the weird MVP and All-NBA snubs. Just the most complete player of the remaining choices. Scores, passes, rebounds, defends, good guy, and led a pretty good team. Was also pretty good in the PS.

3rd and 4th are Moses and Gervin. Both fantastic offensively, have some questions about defense. I'll go with Gervin for winning more with equal or less talent

5th goes to Marques Johnson. Great scoring and rebounding, good passing and d... no real holes in his resume. Recognized for it with 1st team All-NBA. I like him over Hayes who I don't trust team wise

HM: Westphal, Davis, Williams, Sikma, DJ, Hayes, Dandridge

[ItsMillerTime]

1. Kareem
2. Gervin
3. Moses Malone
4. Dr. J
5. Elvin Hayes

HM: Sickma, DJ, Westphaul, Dandridge

[Optimism Prime]

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. George Gervin
3. Julius Erving
4. Moses Malone
5. Elvin Hayes

[semi-sentient]

From this point forward I'm going to wait until some of the old-timers have spoken so that I can get my candidates together, then I'll post my results along with player statistics. I really don't have much to add from this era and unfortunately I won't be able to do much research over the next 2 weeks so I'll be relying on the opinions of others to base my votes. Anyway...

Regular Season

Code: Select all

Player      GP  MIN   PTS   TS%   REB   AST   STL  BLK  TOV
============================================================
Kareem      80  39.5  23.8  .612  12.8  5.4   1.0  4.0  3.5
Gervin      80  36.1  29.6  .587   5.0  2.7   1.7  1.1  3.6
Malone      82  41.3  24.8  .604  17.6  1.8   1.0  1.5  4.0
Erving      78  35.9  23.1  .538   7.2  4.6   1.7  1.3  4.0
Dandridge   78  33.7  20.4  .553   5.7  4.7   0.9  0.7  2.8

Post Season

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Player      GP  MIN   PTS   TS%   REB   AST   STL  BLK  TOV
============================================================
Kareem       8  45.9  28.5  .636  12.6  4.8   1.0  4.1  3.6
Gervin      14  36.6  28.6  .587   5.9  2.5   1.9  1.1  2.9
Malone       2  39.0  24.5  .501  20.5  1.0   0.5  4.0  4.0
Erving       9  41.3  25.4  .568   7.8  5.9   2.0  1.9  4.2
Dandridge   19  41.4  23.1  .527   7.4  5.5   0.7  0.8  3.1

Awards Recognition / Misc

Code: Select all

Player      MVP     All-NBA   All-Defense    Team Record
=========================================================
Kareem      4       2         1              47-35
Gervin      2       1         -              48-34
Malone      1       1         2              47-35
Erving      -       -         -              47-35
Dandridge   5       1         1              54-28

Final Rankings:

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. George Gervin
3. Moses Malone
4. Julius Erving
5. Bob Dandridge

HM: Elvin Hayes, Marques Johnson

[ElGee]

Well, this year, as expected, has confused me greatly. Going to watch G5 of the Finals before my final vote, but I see about 8 players in a hazy mix together.

Kareem "struggled" to a degree -- it seems these years he was criticized at times for lack of a defensive effort and team camaraderie. I'm not sure how much to factor that in. Two things that worry me about him:

(1) Kareem's scoring rate is the lowest it's been in years (going backwards). He's actually right with Dandridge and just ahead of Elvin Hayes, at the back of the pack for my finalists.

(2) His individual rebounding numbers are up, and I have no doubt Kareem was a "good" rebounder based on what I see during games. It's just, well, his team was -268 in rebounding differential. Even without a solid big forward, that's a pretty big deficit for a team with a pivot at 17.6% TRB playing big minutes. Moses' teams were break even the last two years.

Gervin is obviously a defensive sieve. I will give him credit -- in the playoff games online, he has a good balance between passing when doubled and rising up and scoring. At 6-8, it feels like target practice with him sometimes when he's within 15 feet.

Moses carries over the same baggage from last year, only his rebounding effort this year is historically good.

Doctor J had another "down" year according to all reports. His playoff numbers ended up looking amazing, but that doesn't really sync up with the articles I've read and film I've watched. I'm not sure what to do with him. Like Kareem, the criticism does line up with the stats: Erving's scoring took a precipitous drop compared to 1980. Erving didn't even make an All-NBA team this year. I'm not sure how to justify having him over someone like Marques Johnson...

Hayes and Dandridge both have pretty solid resumes. But I'm not sure which Bullet ranks higher.

Gus Williams is probably on the outside looking in. I'm a big fan of his increased scoring throughout the year, then again in the postseason, then again in the Finals. It really seems to be a catalyst for a defensive team, but still, Seattle's overall offense in the regular season was poor (like Philly's) and that hurts Williams' contributions a little in my eyes. Then again, there was so much parity, maybe I'm reading too much into that.

Marques Johnson will probably be up there for me -- just had an outstanding all-around year by all accounts. His team was actually solid as well (despite no Lanier and Squid yet) and only missed the playoffs due to a combination of schedule/luck/alignment.

Would love to hear the take of any older posters who haven't weighed in on these guys yet...

[TrueLAfan]

Again, a chunk of the problem with the Lakers rebounding this year can be traced to … Adrian Dantley. By playing at SF, he pushed Wilkes to PF. Right there, that took away Kareem’s advantages in rebounding. At a Reb % of 17.6, Kareem grabbed about 100-125 more rebounds that an “average” C with a Reb Rate of 16.0. But with Wilkes at PF combined with Don Ford—one of the worst starters I’ve ever seen—the Lakers got 1219 rebounds out of their starting SF and PF positions … a combined Reb % of 21.3. That’s bad. You should get about 23 to 23.5% of rebounds from those positions. That meant the Lakers gave back Kareem’s extra rebounds. And most of the rest of the team—Lou Hudson (who I loved, but was shot by 1979), Ron Boone, Norm Nixon—were really bad rebounders. When West points out that the Lakers didn’t compliment Kareem well, he’s right. Kareem's scoring took a hit because his usage dropped so much...14% to be exact. That's more than his socring drop, even adjusted per minute. Why did Kareem's usage drop? Because the team had added a player who took as many shots per mintue as Cap, held the ball too long, and caused a disruption to the offense that was much more obvious when you were watching than it is in the box scores (although when you know about it, the statistical evidence is there too.) Put it this way...who do you think should be leading the team in usage? The five time MVP with the best halfcourt move in the history of basketball, or the second year player who forced a starter to play out of position? Guess which player led the Lakers in usage?

I should add this...maybe Kareem should have said something publically. I have the feeling, based on what West said at the time and since, that it was brought up to and known by coaching and management. The problems with the team (and Dantley, in particualr) were not a mystery. But should Kareem have put his foot down? Would that have helped the situation? Would it have helped the team? It’s hard to say. It was a different time, and players operated differently with the media in terms of asserting power and having their reputations established. I have the feeling that if Elvin Hayes had had a microphone in his face as often as, say, Allen Iverson has/had, he’d have a very different legacy. But, all in all, I can’t fault Kareem for this. I think he’s naturally taciturn, and I think West didn’t want to play up the mistake in picking up Dantley. But, for me, that doesn’t affect Kareem’s value. And I think it should be noted that when Dantley got his wish and went to a team that allowed him free rein on offense, he never got his team to as many wins as the Lakers did in a season of disruption where there was great parity in the league.

Elvin Hayes … one word. Moody. About 80% of Elvin Hayes game was good, but he didn’t understand why people didn't think that 100% of it was good, and he didn’t get it when people pointed out that he sometimes took bad shots and didn’t pass the ball well (which means “not at all”) and sometiems sulked and complained to the point of (great) irritation. He was a terrific help defender, but a below average man defender. Really, he was lucky in pretty much every way to be paired with Wes Unseld. Unseld was the anti-Hayes; quiet (but not surly, as others sometimes say…that’s just the way his expression is), great passing, great man defender. Hayes was able to get help blocks because Unseld wouldn’t let players get around him. Hayes didn’t have to pass as well because the other frontcourt player was such a terrific passer. If Unseld had had Hayes’ personality and moodiness, we would have heard a lot about how Wes did all the little things and didn’t get much recognition. And it would have hurt the team. But Wes kept his yap shut, and it helped the team. He was, literally, the rock that the Bullets were based on. Dandridge and—to a greater extent—Hayes were streaky players. When they felt good, they could carry a team. But when they felt back, they dragged others down with them. More and more, I feel that Hayes was incredibly lucky to have Unseld alongside him (much as Dave Cowens was lucky to have Paul Silas). Unseld covered almost all of Hayes’s flaws. It’s a prime example of how statistics underestimate the value of a player. I’m not saying Elvin Hayes wasn’t great in 1979—he was. But the team and Hayes, in particular, had a security blanket in Unseld.

[tkb]

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. George Gervin
3. Moses Malone
4. Julius Erving
5. Dennis Johnson

[ElGee]

Finalizing my list and having a hard time justifying Gervin very high.

For someone likes True, who uses "value" as a primary factor, I suppose I could see the argument. But I'm not sure Gervin even played better in 1979 than he did in 1980 (3rd in MVP voting in 80 as well) and suddenly he's moved up by default. That's understandable, but I thought Marques Johnson was better in 1980 and I think Hayes and Dandridge certainly have a claim over him this year.

I'm interested in others take on this before the voting period closes...

[Doctor MJ]

My vote:

1. Kareem
2. Moses
3. Gervin
4. Marques
5. DJ

Fascinating period in NBA history. The stars just aren't leading to title winners. Would love to see more analysis on why. Undoubtedly, a huge part of why basketball was less popular.

I don't totally buy that Kareem's blameless in his team's relative underachievement. I think it's possible to have a bigger impact than he had, and I do think he was in a bit of a lull. However, I do also think there was an overreaction in his treatment in the accolade voting of the time. After all, the other superstars of the time weren't winning more than he was. So he still gets the nod.

I don't share the major skepticism of Moses others clearly have. This is a year where his team improved its record by 20 wins over the previous year, and that's considered a disappointment? None the less, I don't think that stats aside, Moses just impacted the game in a more positive way than Kareem.

Gervin is an obvious member of the semi-successful superstar group.

Marques is the 4th guy. At first glance the team record makes you wonder if he's having any success at all, but look at the team's SRS. This was team's showing signs of improvement, which of course continued for several years. Marques was legit.

Thus ends the Big 4 of the year. I'm a big Dr. J fan, but he just wasn't playing that well at this point. So which mortal gets the nod? I'll go with the Finals MVP here, obviously not just because of his finals performance.

People are likely to wonder why I didn't pick Hayes or Dandridge, well my opinion is that those guys were so much more respected this year simply because Washington as a team was more impressive in the regular season. Seattle won the title, and did so in a significantly more dominant fashion than Washington won the WCF. And of course the next year, DJ and Gus Williams got MVP votes. Also, statistically, Gus in the playoffs had some quite star-like stats, so it's hard for me to not pick one of those two Sonics.

Honorable Mention

Gus & Sikma
Hayes & Dandridge
Davis & Westphal

[Doctor MJ]

Last call.

[ElGee]

My 1979 POY Ballot:

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Moses Malone
3. Marques Johnson
4. George Gervin
5. Bob Dandridge

Obviously, this is a weaker period for individual performance. I still buy Kareem as the best player in the game. Moses then sits comfortably in the second position, with just historically good rebounding and typically efficient contributions scoring the ball. I have my reservations about him but I'll take him over the rest of the lot.

Marques Johnson, in what I guess is an outlying vote, goes next. I had him 6th in 1980 and, statistically, this was as good of a season. He is spoken of extremely highly in all the literature I read, provides great all-around play, and in many ways this his McGrady season on the stat-sheet. Really low turnovers, really efficient scoring as well. My guess is voters were turned off because of the Bucks 38 wins (1st team all-nba and no MVP votes). But the SRS is 2.1, which isn't far from the champion Sonics and ahead of Philadelphia and Houston.

Gervin, reluctantly, goes next. I'm trying to balance how much his scoring means in the NBA in 1979, where spacing was more clogged up and I see a lot of offense flowing through the middle of the court of the lane (geometrically similar scoring spots to the international trapezoid paint). Gervin was a master of that. Still, hard to take him over Marques when Johnson's scoring rate wasn't all that high. Some other Spurs also impressed me (Kenon) so I'm not coming away with the impression that Gervin played on a bad team...

Dandridge gets the nod over his teammate Hayes by virtue of a superior postseason. His playoff run was fairly spectacular, actually, and it helps that the guy put on one of the best clutch shows I've ever seen. He makes every big shot and grabs huge rebounds and loose balls. The defensive output and overall season statistics are strong as well. Dandridge often sees double-teams and makes functional passes to teammates as well. He reminds me a lot of Paul Pierce: deliberate, gets to his spots, big shots, big games, like a crafty YMCA player.

Hayes would be up near Kareem and Moses, but his shot selection hurts his performance. He's taking a good 3 or 4 shots per game that are head-scratching. I really value those possessions. Otherwise, he's right there.

And no, I didn't forget Doctor J. My eyes, my research and the statistics all have him down a notch this year, and I couldn't find a way to get him in the group above the aforementioned players. Right there with the last bunch, but his huge dip in scoring, efficiency, hike in turnovers, etc. all hurt his case for me in the end.

[ElGee]

My vote:

1. Kareem
2. Moses
3. Gervin
4. Marques
5. DJ

Fascinating period in NBA history. The stars just aren't leading to title winners. Would love to see more analysis on why. Undoubtedly, a huge part of why basketball was less popular.

I don't totally buy that Kareem's blameless in his team's relative underachievement. I think it's possible to have a bigger impact than he had, and I do think he was in a bit of a lull. However, I do also think there was an overreaction in his treatment in the accolade voting of the time. After all, the other superstars of the time weren't winning more than he was. So he still gets the nod.

I don't share the major skepticism of Moses others clearly have. This is a year where his team improved its record by 20 wins over the previous year, and that's considered a disappointment? None the less, I don't think that stats aside, Moses just impacted the game in a more positive way than Kareem.

Gervin is an obvious member of the semi-successful superstar group.

Marques is the 4th guy. At first glance the team record makes you wonder if he's having any success at all, but look at the team's SRS. This was team's showing signs of improvement, which of course continued for several years. Marques was legit.

Thus ends the Big 4 of the year. I'm a big Dr. J fan, but he just wasn't playing that well at this point. So which mortal gets the nod? I'll go with the Finals MVP here, obviously not just because of his finals performance.

People are likely to wonder why I didn't pick Hayes or Dandridge, well my opinion is that those guys were so much more respected this year simply because Washington as a team was more impressive in the regular season. Seattle won the title, and did so in a significantly more dominant fashion than Washington won the WCF. And of course the next year, DJ and Gus Williams got MVP votes. Also, statistically, Gus in the playoffs had some quite star-like stats, so it's hard for me to not pick one of those two Sonics.

Honorable Mention

Gus & Sikma
Hayes & Dandridge
Davis & Westphal

For anyone who had this vote, why DJ over Gus? From the Seattle games/clips I saw, I'd take Gus. His stats seem better too. His Finals seem better although I've only seen G5.

[ronnymac2]

Sorry for not being able to vote on this one. Some things came up, and I didn't have the mental energy to participate in the thread. I'm definitely going to read everything at some point though, because I really want to learn about this time period. Seems like a weak yet interesting year.