Rod Thorn and His Swamped Drafts

[Universe]

Starting in September, the New Jersey Nets will start their first season in ten years with a general manager not named Rod Thorn.

Thorn, who is often credited for acquiring Michael Jordan and Jason Kidd, is a legendary basketball general manager who has made poor decisions on draft night for the past decade.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/4246 ... -the-swamp

[mikhailjordan]

Use hindsight to evaluate any GM's draft choices and you're going to find similar results. Thorn wasn't terrible at drafting.

[demens]

what is worse then terrible?

[Universe]

Use hindsight to evaluate any GM's draft choices and you're going to find similar results. Thorn wasn't terrible at drafting.

He wasn't terrible but he definately wasn't gifted in judging this decades talent in the draft. Like I wrote in the article, Kenyon was the easy choice and Lopez fell into our laps. Aside from those two, along with the Jefferson and Collins trade, his draft nights have been below par.

[enetric]

what is worse then terrible?

Answer: YOUR POSTS

[enetric]

Use hindsight to evaluate any GM's draft choices and you're going to find similar results. Thorn wasn't terrible at drafting.

He wasn't terrible but he definately wasn't gifted in judging this decades talent in the draft. Like I wrote in the article, Kenyon was the easy choice and Lopez fell into our laps. Aside from those two, along with the Jefferson and Collins trade, his draft nights have been below par.

You cant decide who fell into your laps based on who worked out and who didnt.

Marcus Williams, Sean Williams...BOTH guys on draft night...while ending up sucky...were considered guys who "fell into our laps" on draft night.

Nenad was an absolute steal.

MOST of our draft picks over that decade were 18-25. You will find if you make a chart of the last decade...more dissapointments than WOW picks in that batch. Someone is always a needle in the haystack later. ALWAYS. That doesnt mean YOUR guy screwed up for not saying...WOW why didnt we see that Monta and Boozer should have been taken 30 picks earlier when no one else did.

We have had a few steals...and that is about all you can ask when you draft low. Its all a crap shoot after 10 to some extent. Is Isiah a draft day genius for finding D.Lee at 30 when in the same draft he takes Frye over Bynum in the lottery?

To me...its the more obvious picks...you have pressure to make the right moves...and the lower moves its only reasonable to take with some grain of salt. Now, want low moves that we made that were overrated?

OK...the move Rod gets so much credit for....the Griffin draft day trade for 3 picks with RJ, Twin and Armstrong. Truth? Bad drafting. He went big and take Twin with Zach on the board. He goes PG with Parker and Arenas on the board. Sure...late pick...but that was BAD scouting.

Jordan? LUCK. Tell you right now...had Portland not drafted Drexler the year before...they take MJ. But Bowie was a STAR center....and in the draft bigs with a high expectation tend to go first. Hakeen was the FIRST pick of that draft. He was an all time great which is why it is forgiven...but MJ still destroys him...so perhaps they shouldnt get such a pass. Its all about after the fact thinking. And...had Portand taken MJ...who does Rod take? He takes Bowie...who had an "OK" career...albeit dissapointing.

These draft conversations after the fact are bogus. Want to rip Wright over Granger even though the entire league passed on Granger for his knee? OK go for it. But at what point do we realize how much nonsense it is to decide these things after the fact?

If Cousins is a stud...those that loved him will say....KINGS genius...how could people pass on him. But...he gets clocked doing 100miles per hour after getting his license, or being fined for missing practice, or punching a coach, or gets benched for fake hustle...and people will say in reverse...see? Why would you take the chance on a guy like that? Everyone knew he had red flags.

Just not fair to do it after the fact without looking at why teams made the moves they made the time. And if you find yourself adding 2nd round moves as BAD picks because you DIDNT take that one in 30 name that made it? Well then shame on you. You have your head up your own ass. SO pull it back out and realize what a crap shoot the later picks are. 15-20 hard 21-30 harder....31-35 leftovers, 36-60 pure luck.

[Universe]

Use hindsight to evaluate any GM's draft choices and you're going to find similar results. Thorn wasn't terrible at drafting.

He wasn't terrible but he definately wasn't gifted in judging this decades talent in the draft. Like I wrote in the article, Kenyon was the easy choice and Lopez fell into our laps. Aside from those two, along with the Jefferson and Collins trade, his draft nights have been below par.

You cant decide who fell into your laps based on who worked out and who didnt.

Marcus Williams, Sean Williams...BOTH guys on draft night...while ending up sucky...were considered guys who "fell into our laps" on draft night.

Nenad was an absolute steal.

MOST of our draft picks over that decade were 18-25. You will find if you make a chart of the last decade...more dissapointments than WOW picks in that batch. Someone is always a needle in the haystack later. ALWAYS. That doesnt mean YOUR guy screwed up for not saying...WOW why didnt we see that Monta and Boozer should have been taken 30 picks earlier when no one else did.

We have had a few steals...and that is about all you can ask when you draft low. Its all a crap shoot after 10 to some extent. Is Isiah a draft day genius for finding D.Lee at 30 when in the same draft he takes Frye over Bynum in the lottery?

To me...its the more obvious picks...you have pressure to make the right moves...and the lower moves its only reasonable to take with some grain of salt. Now, want low moves that we made that were overrated?

OK...the move Rod gets so much credit for....the Griffin draft day trade for 3 picks with RJ, Twin and Armstrong. Truth? Bad drafting. He went big and take Twin with Zach on the board. He goes PG with Parker and Arenas on the board. Sure...late pick...but that was BAD scouting.

Jordan? LUCK. Tell you right now...had Portland not drafted Drexler the year before...they take MJ. But Bowie was a STAR center....and in the draft bigs with a high expectation tend to go first. Hakeen was the FIRST pick of that draft. He was an all time great which is why it is forgiven...but MJ still destroys him...so perhaps they shouldnt get such a pass. Its all about after the fact thinking. And...had Portand taken MJ...who does Rod take? He takes Bowie...who had an "OK" career...albeit dissapointing.

These draft conversations after the fact are bogus. Want to rip Wright over Granger even though the entire league passed on Granger for his knee? OK go for it. But at what point do we realize how much nonsense it is to decide these things after the fact?

If Cousins is a stud...those that loved him will say....KINGS genius...how could people pass on him. But...he gets clocked doing 100miles per hour after getting his license, or being fined for missing practice, or punching a coach, or gets benched for fake hustle...and people will say in reverse...see? Why would you take the chance on a guy like that? Everyone knew he had red flags.

Just not fair to do it after the fact without looking at why teams made the moves they made the time. And if you find yourself adding 2nd round moves as BAD picks because you DIDNT take that one in 30 name that made it? Well then shame on you. You have your head up your own ass. SO pull it back out and realize what a crap shoot the later picks are. 15-20 hard 21-30 harder....31-35 leftovers, 36-60 pure luck.

Since Richard Jefferson in 2001, no Net rookie has lasted beyond their rookie contract. My head isn't up my ass, it's facts.

[enetric]

That's you vaiidation of criticising the draft process? The average for an NBA team is to turn over its roster every 3 years....or roughly, less than the time frame of a rook contract.

And the head up the ass comment wasn specific for you...its was this constant after the fact criticism of who was taken after a team's picks to validate good or bad drafting. Its straight up ignorance. You will find similar results over a decade for all teams. You need to break down the expectation per the area of the draft your picks are being made...and understand the thinking behind the moves at the times.

Marcus Williams...who I absolutely hated from almost day 1....we got an A for that draft by every single source out there. No one could believe we got a guy projected as the best PG in the draft that low. So because he sucked we FAILED? Absolutely not! That was worse than the 20 something teams that passed on Rondo taken one pick earlier????

Need to realize how silly this is to be dealing with it years later. Opportunity, and system wil also play into future stats and NBA success.

Nenad was an absolute steal where we got him and was on track to be an all star in this league before his injury. But you want to give an angle like....past rook contract? Rod Thorn is accountable for his ACL injury?

I wont sit around ripping management for not doing better than Boone, or Planinic with late picks either. That's what you get with late picks more often than you get a Tony Parker or Arenas, or David Lee. Those standouts are the exception not the norm...and those type of steals are spread out accross the league. Its not like there are 3 teams constantly making these great finds.

[NjNeTs1029]

Antoine Wright was the worst. He was terrrrible.. Everyone was excited about Marcus Williams so cant blame him for that pick, but i hated and still hate the Boone pick.. Sean Williams wasnt a terrible pick. He had potential and he fell to us but went crazy.. Nenad was a great pick. He was really solid for us until he blew out his knee.. Planinic was god awful..

But we cant forget the trades he made. Got us Jason Kidd. RJ and Collins for Eddie Griffin was a steal. Vince Carter for basically nothing. Also brought us to the finals and made us relevant in the NBA for the first time in a long time. Yea we sucked for the past couple years but we cant forget that he brought us to the finals and if it wasnt for that dynasty Lakers team or the Duncan/Robinson Spurs then maybe we would've actually won a championship. Successful career as Nets GM in my opinion.

[S.I.C. GM]

I agree with what E says.

Yeah we can say the Thorn has done a terrible job of draft because he has passed on several players that have turned out to be very good. I want to reiterate since some here may have already stated this but

DIDNT THE OTHER GMS ALSO PASS ON THEM TOO!!!!!!

[Universe]

That's you vaiidation of criticising the draft process? The average for an NBA team is to turn over its roster every 3 years....or roughly, less than the time frame of a rook contract.

And the head up the ass comment wasn specific for you...its was this constant after the fact criticism of who was taken after a team's picks to validate good or bad drafting. Its straight up ignorance. You will find similar results over a decade for all teams. You need to break down the expectation per the area of the draft your picks are being made...and understand the thinking behind the moves at the times.

Marcus Williams...who I absolutely hated from almost day 1....we got an A for that draft by every single source out there. No one could believe we got a guy projected as the best PG in the draft that low. So because he sucked we FAILED? Absolutely not! That was worse than the 20 something teams that passed on Rondo taken one pick earlier????

Need to realize how silly this is to be dealing with it years later. Opportunity, and system wil also play into future stats and NBA success.

Nenad was an absolute steal where we got him and was on track to be an all star in this league before his injury. But you want to give an angle like....past rook contract? Rod Thorn is accountable for his ACL injury?

I wont sit around ripping management for not doing better than Boone, or Planinic with late picks either. That's what you get with late picks more often than you get a Tony Parker or Arenas, or David Lee. Those standouts are the exception not the norm...and those type of steals are spread out accross the league. Its not like there are 3 teams constantly making these great finds.

You don't understand the point. Just because media sources gave us high grades on the Marcus Williams pick, he was still a bust. Teams passed over him for a reason yet Rod picked him. Yes other teams pass over players too and I'm not saying Rod Thorn is the worst drafter ever but I'll repeat myself yet again. It's been nine years since a rookie has lasted past his rookie contract. Look around the league and you can see which teams still have players that have lasted past that.

And Nenad Krstic was a steal. And what happened with his knee was not Thorns fault but it still happened.

It has NOTHING to do with the other GM's because this is Rod Thorn and the Nets. The picks were there and he messed up from risking on troubled players to drafting Europeans. We are in this position because of that and if you fail to realize what a horrible job drafting he's done then so be it.

[Universe]

I agree with what E says.

Yeah we can say the Thorn has done a terrible job of draft because he has passed on several players that have turned out to be very good. I want to reiterate since some here may have already stated this but

DIDNT THE OTHER GMS ALSO PASS ON THEM TOO!!!!!!

So they became free agents? No, a general manager selected them.

[Universe]

But we cant forget the trades he made. Got us Jason Kidd. RJ and Collins for Eddie Griffin was a steal. Vince Carter for basically nothing. Also brought us to the finals and made us relevant in the NBA for the first time in a long time. Yea we sucked for the past couple years but we cant forget that he brought us to the finals and if it wasnt for that dynasty Lakers team or the Duncan/Robinson Spurs then maybe we would've actually won a championship. Successful career as Nets GM in my opinion.

Oh I'm beyond grateful to Rod Thorn as though it wouldn't matter to me in Canada but it might have been a far drive to Charlotte or one of those cities the Nets might have been moved to if Kidd and company hadn't came in.

[mikhailjordan]

I have a question for you Universe.

Let's say we have 3 players who are all deemed to have the same upside:

Player A: No red flags, 2 time NCAA champion, averaged 20 ppg 10 rpg 5 apg

Player B: Red Flags = Weight concerns, maturity issues, 0 NCAA championships, averaged 13 ppg 9 rpg 1 apg

Player C: Red Flags = Physical attributes (height, etc.), ability to stay healthy, 0 NCAA championships, averaged 17 ppg, 7 rpg, 1 apg

If Player A gets drafted #5 overall, Player B gets drafted #25 and Player C gets drafted #45 but 5 years down the road it turns out that Player B and Player C are both better than Player A.

Was the GM who drafted Player A wrong for drafting him? Was Player A a bad pick?

---

My thing is this, and I'm not saying Thorn is an excellent drafter, but when analyzing a draft you have to analyze it based on what was known at the time. If some no-name players gets drafted in the second round but works himself into an all-star, that's something that can't be predicted, and IMO shouldn't be held against any GM.

Also you can't hold the Korver and Krhapaya picks against Thorn. Not only were those not his draft choices (they were picks made on behalf of the Sixers and Blazers) but his hands were tied by upper management. He had to sell those picks no matter what.

[Universe]

I have a question for you Universe.

Let's say we have 3 players who are all deemed to have the same upside:

Player A: No red flags, 2 time NCAA champion, averaged 20 ppg 10 rpg 5 apg

Player B: Red Flags = Weight concerns, maturity issues, 0 NCAA championships, averaged 13 ppg 9 rpg 1 apg

Player C: Red Flags = Physical attributes (height, etc.), ability to stay healthy, 0 NCAA championships, averaged 17 ppg, 7 rpg, 1 apg

If Player A gets drafted #5 overall, Player B gets drafted #25 and Player C gets drafted #45 but 5 years down the road it turns out that Player B and Player C are both better than Player A.

Was the GM who drafted Player A wrong for drafting him? Was Player A a bad pick?

---

My thing is this, and I'm not saying Thorn is an excellent drafter, but when analyzing a draft you have to analyze it based on what was known at the time. If some no-name players gets drafted in the second round but works himself into an all-star, that's something that can't be predicted, and IMO shouldn't be held against any GM.

Also you can't hold the Korver and Krhapaya picks against Thorn. Not only were those not his draft choices (they were picks made on behalf of the Sixers and Blazers) but his hands were tied by upper management. He had to sell those picks no matter what.

It has nothing to do with what the potential draftee had done in the past, it's about doing your homework and finding the guy who will be on your team for years to come. Yes, late round picks aren't always going to average 20 and 10 but to not find a single role player or anyone who lasts on this team is a fail.

It's the GMs job to find the players in the draft. A second round pick who works himself into an All-Star was picked by the general manager due to the fact that GM saw something in that guy that could lead to becoming a better basketball player and that's why they watch video footage, have the predraft workouts and interview the players months going into the NBA draft.

[demens]

Most of these picks are not even in the NBA now, how can that be anything other then piss poor drafting.

[vincecarter4pres]

You don't understand the point. Just because media sources gave us high grades on the Marcus Williams pick, he was still a bust. Teams passed over him for a reason yet Rod picked him. Yes other teams pass over players too and I'm not saying Rod Thorn is the worst drafter ever but I'll repeat myself yet again.

So you're blaming Rod for taking Marcus Williams, who experts thought fell to us, because he didn't pan out and because there "was a reason teams passed on him", but you're also blaming Rod for not taking Granger who experts think fell to Indy because he did pan out, even though there "was a reason teams passed on him"?
I mean teams past over Granger for a reason, but Bird picked him, so does that make Bird a good drafter even though he has been religiously terrible with pretty much ever other pick he has ever made, barring my boy Paul George blowing up?
Seriously, you can't have it both ways.

It has NOTHING to do with the other GM's because this is Rod Thorn and the Nets. The picks were there and he messed up from risking on troubled players to drafting Europeans. We are in this position because of that and if you fail to realize what a horrible job drafting he's done then so be it.

And so the bottom line reason we are in a rebuild today is directly correlated to Rod Thorn not finding stud franchise players in the portion of the draft notorious for busts, role players and guys that don't last past their rookie contracts?
Laughable.

[NyCeEvO]

It has nothing to do with what the potential draftee had done in the past, it's about doing your homework and finding the guy who will be on your team for years to come. Yes, late round picks aren't always going to average 20 and 10 but to not find a single role player or anyone who lasts on this team is a fail.

It's the GMs job to find the players in the draft. A second round pick who works himself into an All-Star was picked by the general manager due to the fact that GM saw something in that guy that could lead to becoming a better basketball player and that's why they watch video footage, have the predraft workouts and interview the players months going into the NBA draft.

This is pretty funny. You really think that all second round picks that turn themselves into stud players were selected by GMs because they knew that they would be good? That's complete nonsense. We've heard this statement from GMs countless times when they select a player: "Select the best available player". There are plenty of times that red flags scare teams into not selecting a player and so they draft a player who they deem to be the NEXT best available player who doesn't have as many red flags as the one previously considered." I guess we can take a guy like new Nets SG Anthony Morrow and say that every GM in the NBA failed doing their homework in not seeing this kid since he went undrafted. Obviously, everyone should have seen that he would score 37 points the first time he would start a game, right?

It has nothing to do with what the potential draftee had done in the past, it's about doing your homework and finding the guy who will be on your team for years to come.

You do recognize that homework is done on things already known right? You can't do homework on something that has not come to fruition aka potential. No GM has a genie and no one can predict whether a "guy will be on your team for years to come". You're literally contradicting yourself in back to back sentences.

There are so many other variables that come into play here that it's a joke to even continue bringing this up.

[Universe]

You don't understand the point. Just because media sources gave us high grades on the Marcus Williams pick, he was still a bust. Teams passed over him for a reason yet Rod picked him. Yes other teams pass over players too and I'm not saying Rod Thorn is the worst drafter ever but I'll repeat myself yet again.

So you're blaming Rod for taking Marcus Williams, who experts thought fell to us, because he didn't pan out and because there "was a reason teams passed on him", but you're also blaming Rod for not taking Granger who experts think fell to Indy because he did pan out, even though there "was a reason teams passed on him"?
I mean teams past over Granger for a reason, but Bird picked him, so does that make Bird a good drafter even though he has been religiously terrible with pretty much ever other pick he has ever made, barring my boy Paul George blowing up?
Seriously, you can't have it both ways.

It has NOTHING to do with the other GM's because this is Rod Thorn and the Nets. The picks were there and he messed up from risking on troubled players to drafting Europeans. We are in this position because of that and if you fail to realize what a horrible job drafting he's done then so be it.

And so the bottom line reason we are in a rebuild today is directly correlated to Rod Thorn not finding stud franchise players in the portion of the draft notorious for busts, role players and guys that don't last past their rookie contracts?
Laughable.

Uh, I never anything about us passing Granger because other teams passed on him? You clearly aren't reading what I'm saying about 'experts'.

Re-read what I wrote about drafting has nothing to do with stats, accomplishements in college and such because drafting is about watching videos, interviews and workouts.

As for us being in rebuild has to do with us not finding talent from 2001 onwards. It's laughable how you cannot see that. If we drafted players who were still in the NBA today contributing, we wouldn't be fighting off record books for worst finishes ever because we'd have talent rather than guys who don't pan out, plain and simple.

[Universe]

It has nothing to do with what the potential draftee had done in the past, it's about doing your homework and finding the guy who will be on your team for years to come. Yes, late round picks aren't always going to average 20 and 10 but to not find a single role player or anyone who lasts on this team is a fail.

It's the GMs job to find the players in the draft. A second round pick who works himself into an All-Star was picked by the general manager due to the fact that GM saw something in that guy that could lead to becoming a better basketball player and that's why they watch video footage, have the predraft workouts and interview the players months going into the NBA draft.

This is pretty funny. You really think that all second round picks that turn themselves into stud players were selected by GMs because they knew that they would be good? That's complete nonsense. We've heard this statement from GMs countless times when they select a player: "Select the best available player". There are plenty of times that red flags scare teams into not selecting a player and so they draft a player who they deem to be the NEXT best available player who doesn't have as many red flags as the one previously considered." I guess we can take a guy like new Nets SG Anthony Morrow and say that every GM in the NBA failed doing their homework in not seeing this kid since he went undrafted. Obviously, everyone should have seen that he would score 37 points the first time he would start a game, right?

It has nothing to do with what the potential draftee had done in the past, it's about doing your homework and finding the guy who will be on your team for years to come.

You do recognize that homework is done on things already known right? You can't do homework on something that has not come to fruition. No GM has a genie and no one can predict whether a "guy will be on your team for years to come". You're literally contradicting yourself in back to back sentences.

There are so many other variables that come into play here that it's a joke to even continue bringing this up.

So the GMs pick players in the second round for the sake of taking someone? Nets have numerous scouts in every country working 24/7 yet you assume they are guessing with picks?

Of course no GM has a genie in a bottle but doing your homework pays off when you snag someone good which is the whole point of my article. We haven't had ANYONE stay on our team.

To me, that equals a failure in drafting yet you guys are defending what? That he didn't know Antoine Wright, Marcus Williams and others wouldn't be good yet every year players become talented outside of the top ten.