Prove to me Derrick Rose is Good.

[prekazi]

I won't claim that he's a great floor manager but I don't agree that he's a bad shooter. His mid-range jumper is money and he performs better on bigger stages. Just check his playoff performances.

[Vader]

+/- is a useless stat.

[BR0D1E86]

His biggest problem right now is that he's an atrocious defender.

Hey now, I thought he progressed from atrocious to bad last year. Really though, he does ok in straight up man but he get flat out lost in pick and roll situations. That’s pretty atrocious.

Other than that, I’ll just agree with Morten.

[mysticbb]

Removed.

[cool007]

Prove to me Derrick Rose is Good.

Here's the SIMPLE proof.

There were ONLY 3 players who averaged 23+ppg 4+rpg 6+apg in the last 4 months of the season.

Do you know who those players are???

LeBron James
Dwayne Wade
Derrick Rose

Once Rose's ankle healed up, he was one of the top players in the NBA and stats DO PROVE it.

In the playoffs: Rose averaged 27ppg 3+rpg 7+apg

That's not proof enough for you???

Go watch some games.

[NADALbULLS]

2010 Playoffs: 26.8ppg 7.2apg 46%fg in the 1st round vs Cleveland.

Compare that to Chris Paul's 2009 playoffs (16ppg 10apg 41%fg).

[jax98]

Well, I just learnt that PER is the tool to evaluate talent, especially the talent I talked about (ball handling, passing). Do you really think this way?

Funny. I didn't say anything about ball-handling and passing in my description of Brewer. So how you got that out of the PER statement, I have no idea.

Wtf? You wrote that "Given that Rose also played games with Noah, Deng and Hinrich, it's easy to see why those numbers came up. His supporting cast SUCKED last year." What I'm supposed to get out of this? Playing with Noah, Deng and Hinrich is hurting his numbers and after that you wrote that his support sucks while not mentioning any other player in your post?
I didn't put any words in your mouth, I quoted you exactly and that's what you wrote.

You've made the mistake of reading my comments as a knock on the supporting cast as a whole. I've repeatedly said offensively. I loooooooove Joakim Noah. Deng too. But offensively, they have been huge problems and have been a part in making Rose look worse than he is.

Which one? That I said you are wrong about your claim that Deng, Hinrich and Noah hurted Rose' +/- numbers? Wasn't that your point? Seriously, stop acting like a 12yr old.

I'm acting like a 12 year old, now? It seems to me that you've decided to make things personal because you in no way, shape or form can refute what I say. Which I understand. Because I'm right.

I replied to YOUR claim that Deng, Hinrich and Noah would have sucked last year. I quoted you, read your OWN freaking post and stop pretending you have written something else.

Offensively and as a fit to Rose through offensive dimensions. I've said this many times now. Care to keep up?

Here is the link to my first answer:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1041517&start=15#p24547459

Dude, I don't care about your answer. Because it's the same story all over again. So don't link me again please. It's not necessary. It's painfully obvious that you have completely misunderstood my points in all this.

Which was all completely unrelated to my previous post. As I said you answered yourself or something like this.

Not really. You made the argument that Deng + Hinrich was a good supporting cast to Rose offensively. I, rightfully so, said that wasn't accurate. Then you twisted your heels in it for a solid two hours, not understanding my rebuttal for some reason.

Your point? Wtf? That Deng with a 3pt shot is better than without one? Damn, try to find a single person on that forum which will disagree with "your point".

Oh you rapscallion you. That was not my point, but rather an explanation of the necessity of Deng adding to his game. Because without a legit three, he doesn't fit well with Rose.

Yeah, really. Similar shooting spots doesn't equal occuping the same space during a play.

Correct, but both dominate the same area, and by watching games, you see they do this often and get in each other's way. Or rather, Deng moving in weird patterns when Rose is on the dribble. Now, have I blamed Deng for this? Nope. Likely a Vinny McSpecial design that went wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.

Yeah, not stepping outside of the 3pt line will beam him to the other side of the court.

You seem to (again) fail to understand my meaning in this. When you have no three-point shot, you do not stand behind the arc waiting for kick-outs. Deng had to remain closer to Rose as he would be with a legit three-ball. It's commen sense that spacing is a product of players having distance between them. Deng, with the lack of proper shot, didn't have much distance to Rose.

Uh, no. Deng's moving patterns are actually something which makes him strong off the ball. But maybe Tom Thibodeau is a moron and you are the real genius here.

Uh, yes. And Thibodeau hasn't coached him yet. In fact, what Tom says intrigues me. So why you want to try at set me up against Thibodeau in a battle for the man-boobs, I don't know. Maybe you should get over it.

It was enough effective to make the Bulls significant better offensively. And that range will make it more effective, doesn't make it ineffective without the 3pt shot. Again, you are arguing against something I never said.

Never said it was ineffective. But if we have a 'fit-scale' from 1-10 (10 being the best), Deng right now with his skillset is at best at 5. He can be effective, but through limited motions. Add a three, and that goes up to 7 or 8 immediately due to the spacing alone. Which has been my point all along. Deng is a good player, but his fit with Rose isn't good. It's average. With a three, it'd be great.

Well, and Deng and Rose played well together last season. Maybe you should take that into account in your assessment.

Except they didn't. They just 'played' together last season. But not well.

Again, don't act like I said Deng with a 3pt shot wouldn't be better.

I never did. I said the coaching staff seemed to think it was necessary for him to stretch his range to be more effective with Rose. Thus proving my point. Honestly, did you even read what I said?

Of course he would be better, and obviously Thibodeau wants Deng with more range, because the Bulls traded their starting SG with a 3pt shot away. Now they have Brewer without a 3pt shot. Deng and Rose better coming into the season with a better 3pt shot, otherwise the Bulls will have bigger problems than last season.

.. and because it helps out Rose more from a spacing perspective. Don't undersell that added bonus.

Well, it is easy to see why you think it is poor, because you disagree with something I never said or you are using PER to evaluate talent of players. It is quite interesting, you said +/- stats are flawed, but PER is the ultimativ evaluating tool. Sorry, but even you should be able to admit that this is rather funny.

Did I say PER is the ultimate evaluating tool? Look again. I never said that. In fact, I believe stats are a secondary to the eye-test. But PER beats out +/- every damn time. THAT'S what I said.

You don't need to talk about that, you can even think +/- stats are poor or whatsoever, but that doesn't change the FACT that the numbers didn't support your claim. Whether you like that stats or not, you tried to explain something and picked the wrong players for that. It is that easy. But I already learnt from you that lying is a good way here on the forum (see your quote about Noah, Deng and Hinrich and your claim you never said that).

No, you misunderstood my point by not reading it well enough, or reading my follow-ups. Not at any point did I lie. And so what if the numbers didn't back my cause? It's +/- stats. They're awful! So yay. Congratulations on winning the meaningless +/- debate which adds nothing to true analysis.

Curry had a -7.0 Net in 2004/05. Maybe he deserved it?

Heh. Good ol' Ed. Not surprised. I was making a hypothetical example in the sense of being on the court while times were 'good' as opposed to 'bad times'. That Bulls team struggled with turnovers and scoring droughts, and had a lot of blow-outs their way unfortunately. It's the idea that players with certain roles can be manipulated in specific ways to have a better (or worse) +/- stat. It doesn't prove anything, nor does it explain efficiency of said player. Ergo, it's a bad stat/tool.

Well, that tells more about you than about the stats.

Well it should tell you I'm awesome. And if you don't reach that conclusion, you've failed miserably.

[FinNasty]

Prove to me Derrick Rose is Good.

Here's the SIMPLE proof.

There were ONLY 3 players who averaged 23+ppg 4+rpg 6+apg in the last 4 months of the season.

Do you know who those players are???

LeBron James
Dwayne Wade
Derrick Rose

Once Rose's ankle healed up, he was one of the top players in the NBA and stats DO PROVE it.

In the playoffs: Rose averaged 27ppg 3+rpg 7+apg

That's not proof enough for you???

Go watch some games.

Not near enough assists per game...

Hes a SG playing PG... and those stats reflect that...

[alucryts]

Prove to me Derrick Rose is Good.

Here's the SIMPLE proof.

There were ONLY 3 players who averaged 23+ppg 4+rpg 6+apg in the last 4 months of the season.

Do you know who those players are???

LeBron James
Dwayne Wade
Derrick Rose

Once Rose's ankle healed up, he was one of the top players in the NBA and stats DO PROVE it.

In the playoffs: Rose averaged 27ppg 3+rpg 7+apg

That's not proof enough for you???

Go watch some games.

Not near enough assists per game...

Hes a SG playing PG... and those stats reflect that...

eh dont put too much stock into that. wait and see this year. if he put up 6 or 7 this year then ya id agree.

getting rid of hinrich will not allow us to run a dual pg system anymore. playing off the ball was a big part of rose's game last year

[Jvaughn]

cause he dunks good and Chicago homers tell me he is 1024284258230582052035820851023 times per day on RealGM

Tired of hearing that. No one ever says Rose is good because he dunks well. If that was the case people would be yelling out the Dahntay Jones praises. Rose is a great scorer, good facilitator, and an all-star in his 2nd NBA season. That's why he's good. Watch a game someday.

[FinNasty]

Here's the SIMPLE proof.

There were ONLY 3 players who averaged 23+ppg 4+rpg 6+apg in the last 4 months of the season.

Do you know who those players are???

LeBron James
Dwayne Wade
Derrick Rose

Once Rose's ankle healed up, he was one of the top players in the NBA and stats DO PROVE it.

In the playoffs: Rose averaged 27ppg 3+rpg 7+apg

That's not proof enough for you???

Go watch some games.

Not near enough assists per game...

Hes a SG playing PG... and those stats reflect that...

eh dont put too much stock into that. wait and see this year. if he put up 6 or 7 this year then ya id agree.

getting rid of hinrich will not allow us to run a dual pg system anymore. playing off the ball was a big part of rose's game last year

Well, he is terrible off the ball...

We will see. I value apg MUCH higher than ppg from a PG. You can find scorers in this league. Not near as important/impressive as apg...

He needs to get his apg at 9+ before I start getting too excited about him...

[bert stein]

lol, this reminds me of the thread where mysticbb started out all belligerent and ended up muttering that he may have misunderstood my point because english isn't his first language.

[alucryts]

Not near enough assists per game...

Hes a SG playing PG... and those stats reflect that...

eh dont put too much stock into that. wait and see this year. if he put up 6 or 7 this year then ya id agree.

getting rid of hinrich will not allow us to run a dual pg system anymore. playing off the ball was a big part of rose's game last year

Well, he is terrible off the ball...

We will see. I value apg MUCH higher than ppg from a PG. You can find scorers in this league. Not near as important/impressive as apg...

He needs to get his apg at 9+ before I start getting too excited about him...

1/3 of his points came off the ball. he was actually the best off the ball scoring pg in the league from last year; it was a huge part of his game.

and for the assists ya I can understand. my personal opinion is they will go up 1 or 2 purely from hinrich no longer being here/rose not being off the ball so much.

also add in how thibodeau's offensive system is going to be completely different so we have no idea what rose is going to do really

[Cliff Levingston]

Well, he is terrible off the ball...

No he's not, but even if he was, it's a good thing he's a point guard so he doesn't have to worry too much about that.

We will see. I value apg MUCH higher than ppg from a PG. You can find scorers in this league. Not near as important/impressive as apg...

He needs to get his apg at 9+ before I start getting too excited about him...

Quite frankly, 6 assists per game as your team's #1 scoring option with Luol Deng as your next best scorer and without any reliable 3 point threats or front court scorers is quite impressive.

[FinNasty]

eh dont put too much stock into that. wait and see this year. if he put up 6 or 7 this year then ya id agree.

getting rid of hinrich will not allow us to run a dual pg system anymore. playing off the ball was a big part of rose's game last year

Well, he is terrible off the ball...

We will see. I value apg MUCH higher than ppg from a PG. You can find scorers in this league. Not near as important/impressive as apg...

He needs to get his apg at 9+ before I start getting too excited about him...

1/3 of his points came off the ball. he was actually the best off the ball scoring pg in the league from last year; it was a huge part of his game

Where did you see that stat? Hes looked lost w/o the ball when I've watched him...

And again... assists >>>>>>>>>> scoring for a PG...

He needs to learn how to actually be a PG instead of a SG playing the point...

[FinNasty]

We will see. I value apg MUCH higher than ppg from a PG. You can find scorers in this league. Not near as important/impressive as apg...

He needs to get his apg at 9+ before I start getting too excited about him...

Quite frankly, 6 assists per game as your team's #1 scoring option with Luol Deng as your next best scorer and without any reliable 3 point threats or front court scorers is quite impressive.

Sorry, I dont find that near as impressive as you do...

[alucryts]

Well, he is terrible off the ball...

We will see. I value apg MUCH higher than ppg from a PG. You can find scorers in this league. Not near as important/impressive as apg...

He needs to get his apg at 9+ before I start getting too excited about him...

1/3 of his points came off the ball. he was actually the best off the ball scoring pg in the league from last year; it was a huge part of his game

Where did you see that stat? Hes looked lost w/o the ball when I've watched him...

And again... assists >>>>>>>>>> scoring for a PG...

He needs to learn how to actually be a PG instead of a SG playing the point...

he scores 33% of his points off of the ball. combine that with 20.8 ppg and it came out to the best off the ball scorer for pgs. as for the assists hinrich being gone (bulls ran a dual pg system) + thibodeau's completely different system is going to completely change everything. less off the ball scoring for sure and more assists.

[alucryts]

We will see. I value apg MUCH higher than ppg from a PG. You can find scorers in this league. Not near as important/impressive as apg...

He needs to get his apg at 9+ before I start getting too excited about him...

Quite frankly, 6 assists per game as your team's #1 scoring option with Luol Deng as your next best scorer and without any reliable 3 point threats or front court scorers is quite impressive.

Sorry, I dont find that near as impressive as you do...

as a second year player it is tho. if he had 20.8 ppg and 9 assists last year hed be almost on par with deron and paul

[Jvaughn]

Where did you see that stat? Hes looked lost w/o the ball when I've watched him...

And again... assists >>>>>>>>>> scoring for a PG...

He needs to learn how to actually be a PG instead of a SG playing the point...

So any time we refute a false statement, you're going to find another reason to dislike Rose? Super. Tell me one other PG in the league last year that could've gotten more assists while being the number #1 scoring option, and also take his team to the playoffs. If you would've had a straight distributor playing point for the Bulls last year, we probably would've had a shot of drafting John Wall. Rose did what he had to last year because he was playing with Hinrich, Taj, Flip Murray, and Hakim Warrick. Not the best supporting cast to get your assist game up. Deng was his only real help offensively last year.

[FinNasty]

Where did you see that stat? Hes looked lost w/o the ball when I've watched him...

And again... assists >>>>>>>>>> scoring for a PG...

He needs to learn how to actually be a PG instead of a SG playing the point...

So any time we refute a false statement, you're going to find another reason to dislike Rose? Super. Tell me one other PG in the league last year that could've gotten more assists while being the number #1 scoring option, and also take his team to the playoffs. If you would've had a straight distributor playing point for the Bulls last year, we probably would've had a shot of drafting John Wall. Rose did what he had to last year because he was playing with Hinrich, Taj, Flip Murray, and Hakim Warrick. Not the best supporting cast to get your assist game up. Deng was his only real help offensively last year.

What are you talking about? Go find the very first post I made in this thread. Here... I'll post it for you...

He really needs to get more assists and get better at running the offense...

6 assists per game isnt cutting it...

This was, and always has been, my main knock on Rose.


And who said I disliked him? I wanted the Heat to get him badly. Hes just been a little disappointing as to what I thought he would be. He hasnt run an offense near as well as I was hoping coming out of college...

We will see if he can improve the apg. Hes got some work to do on running an offense. You disagree?