Prove to me Derrick Rose is Good.

[klvanzu]

You want proof? Start watching actual games instead of staring at useless stats. The Bulls will be on prime time television plenty next year.

[Jvaughn]

What are you talking about? Go find the very first post I made in this thread. Here... I'll post it for you...

He really needs to get more assists and get better at running the offense...

6 assists per game isnt cutting it...

This was, and always has been, my main knock on Rose.


And who said I disliked him? I wanted the Heat to get him badly. Hes just been a little disappointing as to what I thought he would be. He hasnt run an offense near as well as I was hoping coming out of college...

We will see if he can improve the apg. Hes got some work to do on running an offense. You disagree?

I was referring to this gem:

Well, he is terrible off the ball...

It was proven that it isn't true, then you pretty much said that it didn't matter because he needs to worry about being a PG, and they don't play off the ball. I agree his assists should go up this year. If not there is no excuse for it. He's played with mediocre players (outside of Gordon, and that half of season with Salmons) up until now. He has a great supporting cast and if his assists don't go up, then that's squarely on him.

I disagree with your statement about him being a disappointment though. But that's your opinion, so Im not going to argue you on it. But how many people expected Rose to come in take a below average team to the playoffs in consecutive years, while winning ROY and having an all-star bid in his 2nd year? That's extremely impressive, and he hasn't even scratched the surface of his potential yet. The running the offense thing I don't buy either. When you set up people all game to miss easy shots, there's not much more that can be asked of you.

[Concept Coop]

This was, and always has been, my main knock on Rose.


And who said I disliked him? I wanted the Heat to get him badly. Hes just been a little disappointing as to what I thought he would be. He hasnt run an offense near as well as I was hoping coming out of college...

We will see if he can improve the apg. Hes got some work to do on running an offense. You disagree?

What?! Can you even tell me what offense they ran the past two years? Can you give me example of him not running the offense well? Did he not pass it to a big at the top off the key and cut effectively? Did he not isolate and create his own offense well enough? Because surely if you watched enough to be disappointed, you watched enough to know that those are what the offense was based on.

Put him in NO or UTA and we are not having this conversation. He had nobody to run the P&R with, he had no shooters to kick out to, he had no bigs with above average hands, he didn't have an offense that put him into position to rack up assist numbers.

[alucryts]

Where did you see that stat? Hes looked lost w/o the ball when I've watched him...

And again... assists >>>>>>>>>> scoring for a PG...

He needs to learn how to actually be a PG instead of a SG playing the point...

So any time we refute a false statement, you're going to find another reason to dislike Rose? Super. Tell me one other PG in the league last year that could've gotten more assists while being the number #1 scoring option, and also take his team to the playoffs. If you would've had a straight distributor playing point for the Bulls last year, we probably would've had a shot of drafting John Wall. Rose did what he had to last year because he was playing with Hinrich, Taj, Flip Murray, and Hakim Warrick. Not the best supporting cast to get your assist game up. Deng was his only real help offensively last year.

What are you talking about? Go find the very first post I made in this thread. Here... I'll post it for you...

He really needs to get more assists and get better at running the offense...

6 assists per game isnt cutting it...

This was, and always has been, my main knock on Rose.


And who said I disliked him? I wanted the Heat to get him badly. Hes just been a little disappointing as to what I thought he would be. He hasnt run an offense near as well as I was hoping coming out of college...

We will see if he can improve the apg. Hes got some work to do on running an offense. You disagree?

disappointing is the last word Id use describing rose. just as much as you value apg, you can't let it be the only thing you rate rose and your expectations with. the bulls needed a #1 scorer last year more than they needed someone dishing out assists. being that rose was the only player capable of being #1 scorer that was his role. to also expect him to dish out 9 or 10 assists is having unrealistic expectations.

being a 20/10 pg as a sophomore would have had him even with paul and williams with a lot of people rating him higher because of his age/experience. if he was just dishing out assists and not taking the lead as a scorer, people would continue to call him passive and dumb because he wasnt taking charge of the scoring role that so obviously needed filling

[Jvaughn]

disappointing is the last word Id use describing rose. just as much as you value apg, you can't let it be the only thing you rate rose and your expectations with. the bulls needed a #1 scorer last year more than they needed someone dishing out assists. being that rose was the only player capable of being #1 scorer that was his role. to also expect him to dish out 9 or 10 assists is having unrealistic expectations.

being a 20/10 pg as a sophomore would have had him even with paul and williams with a lot of people rating him higher because of his age/experience. if he was just dishing out assists and not taking the lead as a scorer, people would continue to call him passive and dumb because he wasnt taking charge of the scoring role

Just to add to that last sentence a little. At the beginning of the season when Rose was hurt and was being passive, there were people saying that Jennings, Rondo, and other names like that were better than Rose, and people who were ready to trade Rose for just about anybody. When he fully healed and went into killer mode, people went back to calling him a top 3-4 PG in this league.

[FinNasty]

What are you talking about? Go find the very first post I made in this thread. Here... I'll post it for you...

He really needs to get more assists and get better at running the offense...

6 assists per game isnt cutting it...

This was, and always has been, my main knock on Rose.


And who said I disliked him? I wanted the Heat to get him badly. Hes just been a little disappointing as to what I thought he would be. He hasnt run an offense near as well as I was hoping coming out of college...

We will see if he can improve the apg. Hes got some work to do on running an offense. You disagree?

I was referring to this gem:

Well, he is terrible off the ball...

It was proven that it isn't true, then you pretty much said that it didn't matter because he needs to worry about being a PG, and they don't play off the ball. I agree his assists should go up this year. If not there is no excuse for it. He's played with mediocre players (outside of Gordon, and that half of season with Salmons) up until now. He has a great supporting cast and if his assists don't go up, then that's squarely on him.

I disagree with your statement about him being a disappointment though. But that's your opinion, so Im not going to argue you on it. But how many people expected Rose to come in take a below average team to the playoffs in consecutive years, while winning ROY and having an all-star bid in his 2nd year? That's extremely impressive, and he hasn't even scratched the surface of his potential yet. The running the offense thing I don't buy either. When you set up people all game to miss easy shots, there's not much more that can be asked of you.

Well, I threw in that comment in response to someone, but that was never my main point.

Btw... I'm still interested in seeing a link that validates this 1/3 of his scoring came off the ball. When watching him, hes seemed to look lost w/o the ball. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong... but it hasnt appeared that way when watching him.


But again, that is off the point. He needs to get better at actually being a PG. Hes one hell of a SG right now...

[Three34]

If Derrick Rose isn't good, how did the Bulls win 41 games? Show your working.

[FinNasty]

So any time we refute a false statement, you're going to find another reason to dislike Rose? Super. Tell me one other PG in the league last year that could've gotten more assists while being the number #1 scoring option, and also take his team to the playoffs. If you would've had a straight distributor playing point for the Bulls last year, we probably would've had a shot of drafting John Wall. Rose did what he had to last year because he was playing with Hinrich, Taj, Flip Murray, and Hakim Warrick. Not the best supporting cast to get your assist game up. Deng was his only real help offensively last year.

What are you talking about? Go find the very first post I made in this thread. Here... I'll post it for you...

He really needs to get more assists and get better at running the offense...

6 assists per game isnt cutting it...

This was, and always has been, my main knock on Rose.


And who said I disliked him? I wanted the Heat to get him badly. Hes just been a little disappointing as to what I thought he would be. He hasnt run an offense near as well as I was hoping coming out of college...

We will see if he can improve the apg. Hes got some work to do on running an offense. You disagree?

disappointing is the last word Id use describing rose. just as much as you value apg, you can't let it be the only thing you rate rose and your expectations with. the bulls needed a #1 scorer last year more than they needed someone dishing out assists. being that rose was the only player capable of being #1 scorer that was his role. to also expect him to dish out 9 or 10 assists is having unrealistic expectations.

being a 20/10 pg as a sophomore would have had him even with paul and williams with a lot of people rating him higher because of his age/experience. if he was just dishing out assists and not taking the lead as a scorer, people would continue to call him passive and dumb because he wasnt taking charge of the scoring role that so obviously needed filling

Well, you and I seemed to have different expectations of Rose coming out...

And people are talking about Rose being one of the best PGs in the league... but he isnt even in the top 10 in apg?

Sorry, he isnt there yet...

[FinNasty]

disappointing is the last word Id use describing rose. just as much as you value apg, you can't let it be the only thing you rate rose and your expectations with. the bulls needed a #1 scorer last year more than they needed someone dishing out assists. being that rose was the only player capable of being #1 scorer that was his role. to also expect him to dish out 9 or 10 assists is having unrealistic expectations.

being a 20/10 pg as a sophomore would have had him even with paul and williams with a lot of people rating him higher because of his age/experience. if he was just dishing out assists and not taking the lead as a scorer, people would continue to call him passive and dumb because he wasnt taking charge of the scoring role

Just to add to that last sentence a little. At the beginning of the season when Rose was hurt and was being passive, there were people saying that Jennings, Rondo, and other names like that were better than Rose, and people who were ready to trade Rose for just about anybody. When he fully healed and went into killer mode, people went back to calling him a top 3-4 PG in this league.

Hes NOT a top 3-4 PG though. And Rondo IS better. Rondo averaged almost double digit assists this year...

Rose still has potential... but he isnt there yet...

[Jvaughn]

Well, you and I seemed to have different expectations of Rose coming out...

And people are talking about Rose being one of the best PGs in the league... but he isnt even in the top 10 in apg?

Sorry, he isnt there yet...

It would appear we did. I expected Rose to be an all-star. Didn't expect to see it in year 2. Color me impressed.

By that line of thinking then Jason Kidd, Russell Westbrook, Baron Davis and Devin Harris are better than Rose. Out of qualified PG's Rose is top 10. Im not counting Wade and Bron in that argument of assists. Rose is a top PG in this league top 3 best, top 4 at worst. I believe 99% of analysts would agree.

[JordansBulls]

Look at what he did to Lebron in Game 3 of the playoffs.

[Jvaughn]

disappointing is the last word Id use describing rose. just as much as you value apg, you can't let it be the only thing you rate rose and your expectations with. the bulls needed a #1 scorer last year more than they needed someone dishing out assists. being that rose was the only player capable of being #1 scorer that was his role. to also expect him to dish out 9 or 10 assists is having unrealistic expectations.

being a 20/10 pg as a sophomore would have had him even with paul and williams with a lot of people rating him higher because of his age/experience. if he was just dishing out assists and not taking the lead as a scorer, people would continue to call him passive and dumb because he wasnt taking charge of the scoring role

Just to add to that last sentence a little. At the beginning of the season when Rose was hurt and was being passive, there were people saying that Jennings, Rondo, and other names like that were better than Rose, and people who were ready to trade Rose for just about anybody. When he fully healed and went into killer mode, people went back to calling him a top 3-4 PG in this league.

Hes NOT a top 3-4 PG though. And Rondo IS better. Rondo averaged almost double digit assists this year...

Rose still has potential... but he isnt there yet...

By my account you're still missing another player there. This is why I said 3-4 so I didn't get into this Rondo vs Rose argument. Rondo averaged almost double digit assists last year..............PLAYING WITH FIRST BALLOT HOFers. Give Rose that roster and the Celtics win it last year. Rose averaged 21ppg and 6apg with a lack of help. I'll take that stat line any day. Rose can take over a game offensively, Rondo can't. You can call Rondo the better distributor but Rose is the better player.

[FinNasty]

Well, you and I seemed to have different expectations of Rose coming out...

And people are talking about Rose being one of the best PGs in the league... but he isnt even in the top 10 in apg?

Sorry, he isnt there yet...

It would appear we did. I expected Rose to be an all-star. Didn't expect to see it in year 2. Color me impressed.

By that line of thinking then Jason Kidd, Russell Westbrook, Baron Davis and Devin Harris are better than Rose. Out of qualified PG's Rose is top 10. Im not counting Wade and Bron in that argument of assists. Rose is a top PG in this league top 3 best, top 4 at worst. I believe 99% of analysts would agree.

But isnt that the point? That LeBron and Wade were both able to get more assists per game last year than Rose?

Wade was BY FAR the Heat's leading scorer... AND he got more assists per game than Rose? Who was Wade dishing it to last year that is so much better than Rose's cast? Same for LeBron?

And no, APG isnt just the only factor in ranking PGs... but it does carry a LOT of weight.

A top 4 PG at worst? Paul, Nash, Rondo, DWilliams... theres 4 right there. If Bron is moved to PG this season... thats 5 that are LOCKS that are better than Rose right now...

[Three34]

You don't have to pass first, or pass really really well, to be a point guard. I thought it was evident that this league had made an advance beyond that. Derrick Rose is clearly a point guard. He brings it up every time without losing it. He runs the break. He handles the ball extremely well. He calls the plays and calls them well. And he moves the ball all the damn time. It does not stop in his hands. This is not Steve Francis we're talking about here.

It just so happens that his best skill is scoring in the half court. That doesn't change whether he's a point guard or not. If he was slightly better at finding the big man in pick and roll/pop situations, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. And now that he has a man in Boozer whom is actually good at the other half of that combo, maybe he'll start to be so.

Derrick Rose looks to score first off the dribble in the half court because he's better at it than all bar about 10 players in the world. He shouldn't go away from that just to appease critics of his APG numbers. And yes I know he isn't as efficient as his field goal percentage.

[FinNasty]

Just to add to that last sentence a little. At the beginning of the season when Rose was hurt and was being passive, there were people saying that Jennings, Rondo, and other names like that were better than Rose, and people who were ready to trade Rose for just about anybody. When he fully healed and went into killer mode, people went back to calling him a top 3-4 PG in this league.

Hes NOT a top 3-4 PG though. And Rondo IS better. Rondo averaged almost double digit assists this year...

Rose still has potential... but he isnt there yet...

By my account you're still missing another player there. This is why I said 3-4 so I didn't get into this Rondo vs Rose argument. Rondo averaged almost double digit assists last year..............PLAYING WITH FIRST BALLOT HOFers. Give Rose that roster and the Celtics win it last year. Rose averaged 21ppg and 6apg with a lack of help. I'll take that stat line any day. Rose can take over a game offensively, Rondo can't. You can call Rondo the better distributor but Rose is the better player.

No... I can call Rose a better scorer... but Rondo is the better player. All around. Better distributor and floor general, and MUCH MUCH MUCH better defender....

Rondo's cast helps for sure... but hes not averaging 4 assists per game less on the Bulls...

[Concept Coop]

No... I can call Rose a better scorer... but Rondo is the better player. All around. Better distributor and floor general, and MUCH MUCH MUCH better defender....

Rondo's cast helps for sure... but hes not averaging 4 assists per game less on the Bulls...

1. Can you tell me what kind of offense the Bulls ran the last two seasons?
2. Is Jose Calderon a better PG than a prime Chauncy Billips?
3. The objective of the sport is to win. Replace Rose with Rondo and the Bulls win fewer games.
4. Using your "all around" logic, Scottie Pippen is the GOAT.

[mysticbb]

Removed.

[Jvaughn]

Well, you and I seemed to have different expectations of Rose coming out...

And people are talking about Rose being one of the best PGs in the league... but he isnt even in the top 10 in apg?

Sorry, he isnt there yet...

It would appear we did. I expected Rose to be an all-star. Didn't expect to see it in year 2. Color me impressed.

By that line of thinking then Jason Kidd, Russell Westbrook, Baron Davis and Devin Harris are better than Rose. Out of qualified PG's Rose is top 10. Im not counting Wade and Bron in that argument of assists. Rose is a top PG in this league top 3 best, top 4 at worst. I believe 99% of analysts would agree.

But isnt that the point? That LeBron and Wade were both able to get more assists per game last year than Rose?

Wade was BY FAR the Heat's leading scorer... AND he got more assists per game than Rose? Who was Wade dishing it to last year that is so much better than Rose's cast? Same for LeBron?

And no, APG isnt just the only factor in ranking PGs... but it does carry a LOT of weight.

A top 4 PG at worst? Paul, Nash, Rondo, DWilliams... theres 4 right there. If Bron is moved to PG this season... thats 5 that are LOCKS that are better than Rose right now...

No, and that's my point. Like Sham said, assists are good for a PG, but you're putting way too much weight on it. Gone are the days when you're PG was asked to only distribute, then take an open shot if its there. You have to be a threat to score still. One of the main reasons players like Brevin Knight couldn't cut it. IIRC he averaged 10apg one season, then got benched the next season in favor of a scoring threat PG.

Wade and Lebron are 7 year vets. Can we give the 2nd year player a chance to get seasoned? Wade and Lebron are better players than Rose. They're arguably the 2 best players in the game. No argument there, but if you look at his climb, Rose is pretty on par with what Wade did in his 2nd year. Wade carried his team completely last year. He's been doing that for the last few years since the championship. It's quite impressive. Rose has a competent lineup this year. By all accounts things should change drastically for his personal stats as well as the teams outcome.

And as i've said before I don't believe Rondo is better than Rose. There was a full segment on NBA on TNT this year where they had that argument. Put CP3, D-Wil, and Rose in the same car, and said Rondo is following that car right now, but he's not there yet. Not the other way around. I don't put Nash there anymore either. JMO, but he's no longer in that conversation, and I do believe this year will cement that fact. Rose is top 3 at best, top 4 at worst. And even if Bron is moved to PG, he's not a PG. It's just a case of not having a better option in Miami.

[Jvaughn]

No... I can call Rose a better scorer... but Rondo is the better player. All around. Better distributor and floor general, and MUCH MUCH MUCH better defender....

Rondo's cast helps for sure... but hes not averaging 4 assists per game less on the Bulls...

What does Rondo do better than Rose other than pass? Nothing. Rose runs a team very well, and takes over scoring when he has to. Don't give me the defensive thing either. Rondo's own coach called him a much overrated defender. Said he gambles for every ball and leaves his teammates on an island. His man defense isn't as good as people make it either. You can tell this by just watching how an elite ball hanlder toys with him. Rose for example always lets Rondo reach first, then either blows by him for the easy basket, or side steps and takes the easy jumper, while Rondo is still trying to recover.

Rondo's averaging 4assists less at the minimum on the Bulls. I really hope you get the chance to watch some bulls games from last season. Numerous times per game Rose sets up people for wide open shots that are gimmes on any other team, just to watch the ball rim out. His supporting cast is much inferior to Boston's. Rondo gets the benefit of the assist numbers there, and also makes it easier for Rondo to score his 14ppg when all the attention is on the HOFers. Rondo's cast helps a lot. I think you'll get a better picture of that as the Big 3 continue to decline, and then ultimately retire. Rondo will be nothing more than an average player.

[alucryts]

Well, you and I seemed to have different expectations of Rose coming out...

And people are talking about Rose being one of the best PGs in the league... but he isnt even in the top 10 in apg?

Sorry, he isnt there yet...

It would appear we did. I expected Rose to be an all-star. Didn't expect to see it in year 2. Color me impressed.

By that line of thinking then Jason Kidd, Russell Westbrook, Baron Davis and Devin Harris are better than Rose. Out of qualified PG's Rose is top 10. Im not counting Wade and Bron in that argument of assists. Rose is a top PG in this league top 3 best, top 4 at worst. I believe 99% of analysts would agree.

But isnt that the point? That LeBron and Wade were both able to get more assists per game last year than Rose?

Wade was BY FAR the Heat's leading scorer... AND he got more assists per game than Rose? Who was Wade dishing it to last year that is so much better than Rose's cast? Same for LeBron?

And no, APG isnt just the only factor in ranking PGs... but it does carry a LOT of weight.

A top 4 PG at worst? Paul, Nash, Rondo, DWilliams... theres 4 right there. If Bron is moved to PG this season... thats 5 that are LOCKS that are better than Rose right now...

so now you are expecting rose to be on wade and lebron's level in his second year? sheesh man. Well, to be honest your coming off as someone with unrealistically high expectations for a second year player and value apg waaaayyyyy too much. by your line of thinking rose should pass the ball more for assist even tho he can score much more efficiently and at a much higher volume than last years players on the bulls. it makes no sense. you've put him in a catch 22 where if he scores like he did, he doesnt assist enough. if he assists, hes passive and doesnt score enough. in his third year i would expect him to finally be able to do both especially given the talent and lack of a dual pg system around him

this is a case of unrealistic expectations.