Prove to me Derrick Rose is Good.

[klvanzu]

Well, you and I seemed to have different expectations of Rose coming out...

And people are talking about Rose being one of the best PGs in the league... but he isnt even in the top 10 in apg?

Sorry, he isnt there yet...

Why is there this obsession with top PGs having to average at least 8-10apg? Chauncey Billups and Tony Parker won championships averaging 6apg, and they were both considered top 5 PGs at some point or another by most people on this board. Rose hasn't won a championship, obviously, but neither have Paul, Williams, or Nash.

[alucryts]

Hes NOT a top 3-4 PG though. And Rondo IS better. Rondo averaged almost double digit assists this year...

Rose still has potential... but he isnt there yet...

By my account you're still missing another player there. This is why I said 3-4 so I didn't get into this Rondo vs Rose argument. Rondo averaged almost double digit assists last year..............PLAYING WITH FIRST BALLOT HOFers. Give Rose that roster and the Celtics win it last year. Rose averaged 21ppg and 6apg with a lack of help. I'll take that stat line any day. Rose can take over a game offensively, Rondo can't. You can call Rondo the better distributor but Rose is the better player.

No... I can call Rose a better scorer... but Rondo is the better player. All around. Better distributor and floor general, and MUCH MUCH MUCH better defender....

Rondo's cast helps for sure... but hes not averaging 4 assists per game less on the Bulls...

yes rondo would. not because of talent, but because of the dual pg system we had in rose/hinrich.

heres your link that proves both rose scores off the ball for a third his points and the fact that the bulls ran a dual pg system. http://www.82games.com/0910/09CHI1.HTM look at Ast'd under scoring. 32% Ast'd which is a third. i fully expect that number to drop this year and his assists to go up

[DanielBoone]

Rose will never approach double digit assists, dude can't read a book let alone a defense. its gonna take more than a couple playoff 1st round exits in the Eastern conference to prove to me he's more than Francis 2.0. inb4 angry homers

[Jvaughn]

Rose will never approach double digit assists, dude can't read a book let alone a defense. its gonna take more than a couple playoff 1st round exits in the Eastern conference to prove to me he's more than Francis 2.0. inb4 angry homers

Nah, no need to be angry. You're just an idiot......So moving on to someone that has something arguable to talk about.

[alucryts]

Rose will never approach double digit assists, dude can't read a book let alone a defense. its gonna take more than a couple playoff 1st round exits in the Eastern conference to prove to me he's more than Francis 2.0. inb4 angry homers

how can you be inb4 angry homers if you ARE the angry homer

[Concept Coop]

Rose will never approach double digit assists, dude can't read a book let alone a defense. its gonna take more than a couple playoff 1st round exits in the Eastern conference to prove to me he's more than Francis 2.0. inb4 angry homers

He has an amazing basketball IQ. Lets not pretend that leading your team to the playoffs both of your two years in the NBA is a negative.

[klvanzu]

Rose will never approach double digit assists, dude can't read a book let alone a defense. its gonna take more than a couple playoff 1st round exits in the Eastern conference to prove to me he's more than Francis 2.0. inb4 angry homers

Be cool. Stay in school.

[FinNasty]

It would appear we did. I expected Rose to be an all-star. Didn't expect to see it in year 2. Color me impressed.

By that line of thinking then Jason Kidd, Russell Westbrook, Baron Davis and Devin Harris are better than Rose. Out of qualified PG's Rose is top 10. Im not counting Wade and Bron in that argument of assists. Rose is a top PG in this league top 3 best, top 4 at worst. I believe 99% of analysts would agree.

But isnt that the point? That LeBron and Wade were both able to get more assists per game last year than Rose?

Wade was BY FAR the Heat's leading scorer... AND he got more assists per game than Rose? Who was Wade dishing it to last year that is so much better than Rose's cast? Same for LeBron?

And no, APG isnt just the only factor in ranking PGs... but it does carry a LOT of weight.

A top 4 PG at worst? Paul, Nash, Rondo, DWilliams... theres 4 right there. If Bron is moved to PG this season... thats 5 that are LOCKS that are better than Rose right now...

so now you are expecting rose to be on wade and lebron's level in his second year? sheesh man. Well, to be honest your coming off as someone with unrealistically high expectations for a second year player and value apg waaaayyyyy too much. by your line of thinking rose should pass the ball more for assist even tho he can score much more efficiently and at a much higher volume than last years players on the bulls. it makes no sense. you've put him in a catch 22 where if he scores like he did, he doesnt assist enough. if he assists, hes passive and doesnt score enough. in his third year i would expect him to finally be able to do both especially given the talent and lack of a dual pg system around him

this is a case of unrealistic expectations.

No... I was saying that these 2 guys that dont even play PG have more assists per game than Rose.

And I will never knock a PG as "passive" b/c he doesnt score enough. Scoring from a PG comes secondary to running an offense. You think I put wwaaaaayyyy too much value on APG. Well, I think you put wwwaaaaayyyyyy too much value on PPG from a PG.

APG > PPG for a PG... always.

[DanielBoone]

Rose will never approach double digit assists, dude can't read a book let alone a defense. its gonna take more than a couple playoff 1st round exits in the Eastern conference to prove to me he's more than Francis 2.0. inb4 angry homers

Nah, no need to be angry. You're just an idiot......So moving on to someone that has something arguable to talk about.

I guess I'm not intelligent enough to get suckered into the old "pick and choose stats vs watch the games argument" that no side ever budges on. Rose is a legit 85 IQ at best and dumb guys don't cut it in this league once their legs start slowing down. Hate to tell ya. He's Stevie Franchise

[Jvaughn]

But isnt that the point? That LeBron and Wade were both able to get more assists per game last year than Rose?

Wade was BY FAR the Heat's leading scorer... AND he got more assists per game than Rose? Who was Wade dishing it to last year that is so much better than Rose's cast? Same for LeBron?

And no, APG isnt just the only factor in ranking PGs... but it does carry a LOT of weight.

A top 4 PG at worst? Paul, Nash, Rondo, DWilliams... theres 4 right there. If Bron is moved to PG this season... thats 5 that are LOCKS that are better than Rose right now...

so now you are expecting rose to be on wade and lebron's level in his second year? sheesh man. Well, to be honest your coming off as someone with unrealistically high expectations for a second year player and value apg waaaayyyyy too much. by your line of thinking rose should pass the ball more for assist even tho he can score much more efficiently and at a much higher volume than last years players on the bulls. it makes no sense. you've put him in a catch 22 where if he scores like he did, he doesnt assist enough. if he assists, hes passive and doesnt score enough. in his third year i would expect him to finally be able to do both especially given the talent and lack of a dual pg system around him

this is a case of unrealistic expectations.

No... I was saying that these 2 guys that dont even play PG have more assists per game than Rose.

And I will never knock a PG as "passive" b/c he doesnt score enough. Scoring from a PG comes secondary to running an offense. You think I put wwaaaaayyyy too much value on APG. Well, I think you put wwwaaaaayyyyyy too much value on PPG from a PG.

APG > PPG for a PG... always.

Winning >>>> APG+PPG. Rose did what he had to do to get his team the W. I don't have too much more to say on that.

[Jvaughn]

Rose will never approach double digit assists, dude can't read a book let alone a defense. its gonna take more than a couple playoff 1st round exits in the Eastern conference to prove to me he's more than Francis 2.0. inb4 angry homers

Nah, no need to be angry. You're just an idiot......So moving on to someone that has something arguable to talk about.

I guess I'm not intelligent enough to get suckered into the old "pick and choose stats vs watch the games argument" that no side ever budges on. Rose is a legit 85 IQ at best and dumb guys don't cut it in this league once their legs start slowing down. Hate to tell ya. He's Stevie Franchise

Guess you're not. Glad you tested Rose on the IQ test. I had been wondering for awhile if he could be a rocket scientist after basketball. I don't care much if he can do simple math. He's a player. Not going to get baited into this stupid argument with you. You're really not worth it.

[FinNasty]

so now you are expecting rose to be on wade and lebron's level in his second year? sheesh man. Well, to be honest your coming off as someone with unrealistically high expectations for a second year player and value apg waaaayyyyy too much. by your line of thinking rose should pass the ball more for assist even tho he can score much more efficiently and at a much higher volume than last years players on the bulls. it makes no sense. you've put him in a catch 22 where if he scores like he did, he doesnt assist enough. if he assists, hes passive and doesnt score enough. in his third year i would expect him to finally be able to do both especially given the talent and lack of a dual pg system around him

this is a case of unrealistic expectations.

No... I was saying that these 2 guys that dont even play PG have more assists per game than Rose.

And I will never knock a PG as "passive" b/c he doesnt score enough. Scoring from a PG comes secondary to running an offense. You think I put wwaaaaayyyy too much value on APG. Well, I think you put wwwaaaaayyyyyy too much value on PPG from a PG.

APG > PPG for a PG... always.

Winning >>>> APG+PPG. Rose did what he had to do to get his team the W. I don't have too much more to say on that.

Winning >>> everything

However, the whole point is talking about how good Rose can be. If he is going to become one of the best PGs in the league... he HAS to get better at running an offense.

He isnt there yet. Unlike DanielBoone, I'm not saying he cant.... but he has a lot of work to do in that department.

[FinNasty]

No... I can call Rose a better scorer... but Rondo is the better player. All around. Better distributor and floor general, and MUCH MUCH MUCH better defender....

Rondo's cast helps for sure... but hes not averaging 4 assists per game less on the Bulls...

What does Rondo do better than Rose other than pass? Nothing. Rose runs a team very well, and takes over scoring when he has to. Don't give me the defensive thing either. Rondo's own coach called him a much overrated defender. Said he gambles for every ball and leaves his teammates on an island. His man defense isn't as good as people make it either. You can tell this by just watching how an elite ball hanlder toys with him. Rose for example always lets Rondo reach first, then either blows by him for the easy basket, or side steps and takes the easy jumper, while Rondo is still trying to recover.

So, in your opinon... Rose = Rondo on defense?

Honestly?

I dont care how overrated Rondo is on defense. Hes still MUCH MUCH better than Rose is. Rose is flat out bad on defense man. You disagree on that too?

[Jvaughn]

No... I was saying that these 2 guys that dont even play PG have more assists per game than Rose.

And I will never knock a PG as "passive" b/c he doesnt score enough. Scoring from a PG comes secondary to running an offense. You think I put wwaaaaayyyy too much value on APG. Well, I think you put wwwaaaaayyyyyy too much value on PPG from a PG.

APG > PPG for a PG... always.

Winning >>>> APG+PPG. Rose did what he had to do to get his team the W. I don't have too much more to say on that.

Winning >>> everything

However, the whole point is talking about how good Rose can be. If he is going to become one of the best PGs in the league... he HAS to get better at running an offense.

He isnt there yet. Unlike DanielBoone, I'm not saying he cant.... but he has a lot of work to do in that department.

No doubt he has to get better. There's a lot he has to improve on. He's a 2nd year player. Where we differ is where he ranks right now. I haven't heard an analysts say that he isn't top 3 or 4 PG right now. I agree with it, and I also believe that he can get to top 1 or 2 given some more time.

[DanielBoone]

Guess you're not. Glad you tested Rose on the IQ test. I had been wondering for awhile if he could be a rocket scientist after basketball. I don't care much if he can do simple math. He's a player. Not going to get baited into this stupid argument with you. You're really not worth it.

Go and find a bball forum from 2000 and find what they say about Steve Francis. Same stuff. I know its not a nice thing to say but you have to have a certain level of intelligence to reach the upper echelon of PG's and Rose just doesn't have it. I'm not trying to make you angry I just don't know how else to put it.

[Jvaughn]

No... I can call Rose a better scorer... but Rondo is the better player. All around. Better distributor and floor general, and MUCH MUCH MUCH better defender....

Rondo's cast helps for sure... but hes not averaging 4 assists per game less on the Bulls...

What does Rondo do better than Rose other than pass? Nothing. Rose runs a team very well, and takes over scoring when he has to. Don't give me the defensive thing either. Rondo's own coach called him a much overrated defender. Said he gambles for every ball and leaves his teammates on an island. His man defense isn't as good as people make it either. You can tell this by just watching how an elite ball hanlder toys with him. Rose for example always lets Rondo reach first, then either blows by him for the easy basket, or side steps and takes the easy jumper, while Rondo is still trying to recover.

So, in your opinon... Rose = Rondo on defense?

Honestly?

I dont care how overrated Rondo is on defense. Hes still MUCH MUCH better than Rose is. Rose is flat out bad on defense man. You disagree on that too?

No in my opinion Rondo is actually only marginally better on defense. Rondo gambles, while Rose tries more at staying in front of his man and neutralizing them that way. Rose has to get better at defense, but he has steadily grown from a liability to an average defender in 1 year. In year 3 we should see even better. Rose was flat out bad on defense, now he's just not impressive on D.

[Jvaughn]

Guess you're not. Glad you tested Rose on the IQ test. I had been wondering for awhile if he could be a rocket scientist after basketball. I don't care much if he can do simple math. He's a player. Not going to get baited into this stupid argument with you. You're really not worth it.

Go and find a bball forum from 2000 and find what they say about Steve Francis. Same stuff. I know its not a nice thing to say but you have to have a certain level of intelligence to reach the upper echelon of PG's and Rose just doesn't have it. I'm not trying to make you angry I just don't know how else to put it.

Uh-huh. Ttyl

[alucryts]

But isnt that the point? That LeBron and Wade were both able to get more assists per game last year than Rose?

Wade was BY FAR the Heat's leading scorer... AND he got more assists per game than Rose? Who was Wade dishing it to last year that is so much better than Rose's cast? Same for LeBron?

And no, APG isnt just the only factor in ranking PGs... but it does carry a LOT of weight.

A top 4 PG at worst? Paul, Nash, Rondo, DWilliams... theres 4 right there. If Bron is moved to PG this season... thats 5 that are LOCKS that are better than Rose right now...

so now you are expecting rose to be on wade and lebron's level in his second year? sheesh man. Well, to be honest your coming off as someone with unrealistically high expectations for a second year player and value apg waaaayyyyy too much. by your line of thinking rose should pass the ball more for assist even tho he can score much more efficiently and at a much higher volume than last years players on the bulls. it makes no sense. you've put him in a catch 22 where if he scores like he did, he doesnt assist enough. if he assists, hes passive and doesnt score enough. in his third year i would expect him to finally be able to do both especially given the talent and lack of a dual pg system around him

this is a case of unrealistic expectations.

No... I was saying that these 2 guys that dont even play PG have more assists per game than Rose.

And I will never knock a PG as "passive" b/c he doesnt score enough. Scoring from a PG comes secondary to running an offense. You think I put wwaaaaayyyy too much value on APG. Well, I think you put wwwaaaaayyyyyy too much value on PPG from a PG.

APG > PPG for a PG... always.

no that is wrong. if you say apg > ppg for rose last year on the bulls you honestly have no idea what you are talking about. there are situations where apg are better and those where ppg are better for your pg. if you say otherwise you are being extremely inflexible and narrow minded.

[DanielBoone]

Guess you're not. Glad you tested Rose on the IQ test. I had been wondering for awhile if he could be a rocket scientist after basketball. I don't care much if he can do simple math. He's a player. Not going to get baited into this stupid argument with you. You're really not worth it.

Go and find a bball forum from 2000 and find what they say about Steve Francis. Same stuff. I know its not a nice thing to say but you have to have a certain level of intelligence to reach the upper echelon of PG's and Rose just doesn't have it. I'm not trying to make you angry I just don't know how else to put it.

Uh-huh. Ttyl

The truth hurts

[Cliff Levingston]

Cliff Levingston didn't realize how easy it was to rank the point guards of the league. Apparently, all you have to do it sort the leaders by assists to get your answer.

1. Steve Nash
2. Chris Paul
3. Deron Williams
4. Rajon Rondo
5. Jason Kidd
6. LeBron James
7. Baron Davis
8. Russell Westbrook
9. Gilbert Arenas
10. Devin Harris
11. Dwayne Wade
12. Derrick Rose
13. Jose Calderon
14. Stephen Curry
15. Andre Igoudala

Cliff Levingston bets that stupid Bulls homers would turn down Derrick Rose for Jose Calderon and a 1st round pick even though Jose Calderon is only 0.1 units worse as a point guard than Derrick Rose. Let's not even begin to talk about Baron Davis!