Will Bargnani ever learn to value individual success?

[RocLaFamilia]

You know what, this is the year we will find out about Bargs. My hope is that he turns into a 22 9 3 2 player. To me thats his ceiling, not saying he will reach it, but that I think is his max. but what I think he will realistically do is 19 7 2 1.8.

I think the run n gun style suits his game alot more, since he can out run centers and his pull up is wet (when on).

[novi13]

Bad habits die hard. You know Andrea was a 3 for the majority of his young life playing basketball. I don't think wing players have much of a rebounding responsibility in Italy (maybe).

Regardless of the reason, it is still a very stupid and selfish thing to do. When the ball goes up, all 10 players have a chance of getting the ball. By removing himself completely from the competition (perhaps out of some misplaced sense that someone else will get it), he puts additional pressure on the rest of his teammates to secure the rebound. Like, playing with a guy who refuses to rebound is extremely stressful and frustrating. I have no clue why you are trying to spin this as a virtue. I assume you have played basketball before and understand this dynamic, and thus strongly question your motives behind this.

Actually, this is the misconception. Bargnani made Bosh's life so much easier in a LOT of ways.

1. On offense, by stretching centers away from the basket, he allowed Bosh to work one on one on the wing/block area. By doing this, Bosh would generally see help from wings, not shot-blocking bigs. He would either take a jumper when the help came early enough or he would drive one on one if it came late... all the while Andrea has the opposing center at the free throw line ready to leak out to 3.

2. By being at the 3-point line, Andrea was generally back quickly on defense. Theoretically, big men are often last up and down the floor, but Andrea was often the first player back because he plays so far from the basket on offense. This allowed Bosh to work with a little less pressure.

3. Yes, he didn't quite rebound, but he did block out a lot. I'm not saying he did it always, I'm not saying he did it very well, but he tried to keep his man from getting the ball. This means Bosh.. again.. was not battling 2 people for rebounds, he was going 1-1 against the big Bargnani wasn't blocking out. Now, once in a while when the block out failed.. the Raptors would surrender a rebound because then .. yes.. Bargnani was a rebounding liability.. and I think he's just bad at tracking so he's opted to block his man out so Bosh can grab it. To see him however admittedly come out and say he's bad at it, and he needs to rebound more for someone with his body.. it makes me think he CAN and will make a dramatic jump next season.

[shmito17]

Actually, this is the misconception. Bargnani made Bosh's life so much easier in a LOT of ways.

1. On offense, by stretching centers away from the basket, he allowed Bosh to work one on one on the wing/block area. By doing this, Bosh would generally see help from wings, not shot-blocking bigs. He would either take a jumper when the help came early enough or he would drive one on one if it came late... all the while Andrea has the opposing center at the free throw line ready to leak out to 3.

2. By being at the 3-point line, Andrea was generally back quickly on defense. Theoretically, big men are often last up and down the floor, but Andrea was often the first player back because he plays so far from the basket on offense. This allowed Bosh to work with a little less pressure.

3. Yes, he didn't quite rebound, but he did block out a lot. I'm not saying he did it always, I'm not saying he did it very well, but he tried to keep his man from getting the ball. This means Bosh.. again.. was not battling 2 people for rebounds, he was going 1-1 against the big Bargnani wasn't blocking out. Now, once in a while when the block out failed.. the Raptors would surrender a rebound because then .. yes.. Bargnani was a rebounding liability.. and I think he's just bad at tracking so he's opted to block his man out so Bosh can grab it. To see him however admittedly come out and say he's bad at it, and he needs to rebound more for someone with his body.. it makes me think he CAN and will make a dramatic jump next season.[/quote]


I think you got this mixed up. Bosh was the one that made everyone's life easier, not Bargnani.

[Ripp]

You seem to be changing the subject away from rebounding into something else....I'd prefer if this thread doesn't change topic just yet. Let me first hammer out this rebounding issue and how badly it will continue to hurt the team...perhaps we can revisit these other areas later in the thread:

3. Yes, he didn't quite rebound, but he did block out a lot. I'm not saying he did it always, I'm not saying he did it very well, but he tried to keep his man from getting the ball. This means Bosh.. again.. was not battling 2 people for rebounds, he was going 1-1 against the big Bargnani wasn't blocking out. Now, once in a while when the block out failed.. the Raptors would surrender a rebound because then .. yes.. Bargnani was a rebounding liability.. and I think he's just bad at tracking so he's opted to block his man out so Bosh can grab it. To see him however admittedly come out and say he's bad at it, and he needs to rebound more for someone with his body.. it makes me think he CAN and will make a dramatic jump next season.

No, that is not how rebounding works. You need to GO GET THE BALL. This "blocking out" that Bargnani supposedly does leads to wing players flying in for the offensive boards:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhdGQn3k7Aw

If you are 7'1, go grab the damn ball...boxing out alone is unacceptable and again a moronic thing to do (since Bargnani's "box out" attempts so frequently lead to the other team grabbing the ball.)

Like, in life, if you keep repeating strategies that do not work, the best thing to do is to change them and find something that works, not keep banging your head against the wall.

[JYD]

Don't worry, soon he will be Hakeem-esque.

[FirstInkTDot]

I'm think this is the year Bargnani gets to shine....

[Daedelus]

I would rather Bargnani value team success. I want to see him working hard and wanting to win.

[Ripp]

This reminds me of that CarFax commercial. The client is asking for the CarFax report for the car. The used car salesman is offering anything else...he pretends he mishears and offers instead a "Car Fox." Like, none of us give a damn about boxing out or any of these things that supposedly Bargnani is doing to help contribute on the glass. We want some damn rebounds, not "block outs", box outs, box ups, chin ups, or any other fake surrogates. Rebounds only, please. Coca-cola, not the fake stuff they sell at WalMart.

[just23]

I don't understand this. Not grabbing defensive rebounds when there are plenty to be had and your team BADLY needs to control the glass sounds extremely selfish to me, rather than unselfish. Not playing help defense also sounds extremely selfish. Or am I missing something critical, here?

Agreed. I don't think Andrea is a great role player at all. A great role player does the little things, which are the very things Andrea has no concept of. He fights for rebounds, he takes high percentage shots and not 3 pointers, he hustles and plays defense both on his man and in help situations. Andrea has no desire on the boards. None. He camps out at the 3 point line, where I think his shooting ability has been overhyped from day one and while his man defense has improved a bit, his help defense sucks by big man standards. Sorry if it seems like I'm just Bargs bashing, but he isn't a great team player at all. I want him off this team and I'm hoping BC gets fired because that's the only way it'll happen. Peace.

[Ripp]

I don't understand this. Not grabbing defensive rebounds when there are plenty to be had and your team BADLY needs to control the glass sounds extremely selfish to me, rather than unselfish. Not playing help defense also sounds extremely selfish. Or am I missing something critical, here?

Agreed. I don't think Andrea is a great role player at all. A great role player does the little things, which are the very things Andrea has no concept of. He fights for rebounds, he takes high percentage shots and not 3 pointers, he hustles and plays defense both on his man and in help situations. Andrea has no desire on the boards. None. He camps out at the 3 point line, where I think his shooting ability has been overhyped from day one and while his man defense has improved a bit, his help defense sucks by big man standards. Sorry if it seems like I'm just Bargs bashing, but he isn't a great team player at all. I want him off this team and I'm hoping BC gets fired because that's the only way it'll happen. Peace.

What about even setting hard screens? Or offensive rebounds via tipping them to your teammates? Or communicating on defense? Or making the extra pass, rather than chucking another three or pulling up for a contested mid-range jumper? Like, he is a team-oriented player, but somehow does none of the big or little things that help a team win. Makes no sense to me, this interpretation.

[Alfred]

Don't worry, soon he will be Hakeem-esque.

Come on, nobody's dumb enough to have actually said that.

[sanity]

Rebounding and playing tough defense is 99% plain effort. Chuck Hayes is indicative to that, its the only reason he's in this league.

[shmito17]

I don't understand this. Not grabbing defensive rebounds when there are plenty to be had and your team BADLY needs to control the glass sounds extremely selfish to me, rather than unselfish. Not playing help defense also sounds extremely selfish. Or am I missing something critical, here?

Agreed. I don't think Andrea is a great role player at all. A great role player does the little things, which are the very things Andrea has no concept of. He fights for rebounds, he takes high percentage shots and not 3 pointers, he hustles and plays defense both on his man and in help situations. Andrea has no desire on the boards. None. He camps out at the 3 point line, where I think his shooting ability has been overhyped from day one and while his man defense has improved a bit, his help defense sucks by big man standards. Sorry if it seems like I'm just Bargs bashing, but he isn't a great team player at all. I want him off this team and I'm hoping BC gets fired because that's the only way it'll happen. Peace.

I'm by no means pro-Bargs, but it's a little harsh to call him out for not being a great team player. You can't justify a statement like that just because he's a poor help defender, or camps out on the 3 point line too often. Also, getting rid of your highest asset would not be recommendable in a rebuilding period.

[Ripp]

I'm by no means pro-Bargs, but it's a little harsh to call him out for not being a great team player. You can't justify a statement like that just because he's a poor help defender, or camps out on the 3 point line too often. Also, getting rid of your highest asset would not be recommendable in a rebuilding period.

If my teammate never helped us on the glass or played help defense, and then went to the media and says that he doesn't do this because he is "lazy" (whether serious or joking), I would very likely punch said teammate in the face. Seems like a pretty toolish thing to do, imo.

[MEDIC]

If my teammate never helped us on the glass or played help defense, and then went to the media and says that he doesn't do this because he is "lazy" (whether serious or joking), I would very likely punch said teammate in the face. Seems like a pretty toolish thing to do, imo.

Meh....if the coaching staff wanted to, they could tell him to ditch the 3 point shot, always stay within 15 feet of the basket & rebound the ball.

I blame the coaching staff just as much as I blame AB for this.

[shmito17]

[/quote]If my teammate never helped us on the glass or played help defense, and then went to the media and says that he doesn't do this because he is "lazy" (whether serious or joking), I would very likely punch said teammate in the face. Seems like a pretty toolish thing to do, imo.[/quote]

I agree with you. I've played basketball at the collegiate level, and I would do the same and give an ear full to the person not giving his all on the defensive end. I was only stating that to generalize Bargnani as 'not a team player' is non-sense. I'm sure he tries to do what he can, but he is what he is. An average basketball player. He has his strengths and his weaknesses, and at such a position his weaknesses are more glaring. And it doesn't help his cause because we expect him to live up to those lofty expectations of being a #1 pick. A. Everyone that expects him to have this breakout season need to tamper there expectations.

[just23]

If my teammate never helped us on the glass or played help defense, and then went to the media and says that he doesn't do this because he is "lazy" (whether serious or joking), I would very likely punch said teammate in the face. Seems like a pretty toolish thing to do, imo.[/quote]

I agree with you. I've played basketball at the collegiate level, and I would do the same and give an ear full to the person not giving his all on the defensive end. I was only stating that to generalize Bargnani as 'not a team player' is non-sense. I'm sure he tries to do what he can, but he is what he is. An average basketball player. He has his strengths and his weaknesses, and at such a position his weaknesses are more glaring. And it doesn't help his cause because we expect him to live up to those lofty expectations of being a #1 pick. A. Everyone that expects him to have this breakout season need to tamper there expectations.[/quote]

My expectations are for him to do what he's always done and that's play sissy basketball. Shoot another 3 Andrea. You're helping our lottery chances for next year when hopefully you'll be traded following BC's release.

[EG73]

My opinion:
1- Since Bosh left, I believe he will have more motivation to perform well. I agree with boogie's post.
2- I don't think the lack of rebounding is caused only by a lack of interest about stats (more because of positioning for 3's, etc.)
3- I hope he will have opportunity to show us his great potential: depend on motivation, but probably more on which position he plays (4 vs 5) and the teammates playing with him (ex: a huge C)

I read all of that, and cant believe I did. When will people start using this forum as a place to talk Raptors stuff not opinions? Get a blog, and post it in the blog thread.

This place is UNBEARABLE in the offseason, save for most Rhett/Sub posts. If im excluding anyone else who actually posts information my apologies.

What do you want ? The 'best' posts are supposed to be the ones with objective informations and the ones with well explained opinions (and of course the ones with funny content !). Not the excessive number of unuseful posts. You can suggest blog to someone who post random opinions about anything. In this case, OP explained in details his opinion about a precise subject. If you can read a text that long or that complex, your use of Internet should be limited to videos, images and texts less than 5 words (+1 LOL smiley). Maybe P-o-r-n ?
Sorry for my bad english.

[Ripp]

I actually don't mind him shooting threes. The problem is, he doesn't make as many as you'd hope for, given how many of them are wide open looks. And the release of his three point shot is so slow...makes it really, really easy to push him off the three point line and have him take a contested long-range two instead (imo, the worst shot in basketball.)

[Tommy Gun]

Novi/Messy was right all along when he compared Bargs to Hakeem.
The ONE thing he didnt count on is that Bargs just isnt as selfish as Hakeem. That's the only thing separating them at this point