Retro POY '76-77 (Voting Complete)

[Doctor MJ]

In this thread we'll discuss and vote on the top 5 best player seasons of '76-77.

Trying something new now. Schedule will be Mon-Fri, and Thu-Mon. Typically this will be morning to morning.

Some things to start us off:

Season Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... _1977.html
Playoff Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... _1977.html
Award Voting http://www.basketball-reference.com/awa ... _1977.html
Final Box Score http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1977.htm

Topics
The merger
Kareem vs Walton
Erving's new role

[Mean_Streets]

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - NBA MVP. Yes he got swept, but Outplayed Walton in the WCF, he scored more points, grabbed more rebounds, blocked more shots, & had a higher FG% than Walton in that WCF. Kareem was clearly the better player, but Walton had a superior team. I was watching a couple of games from this series a few days back & Kareem's supporting cast was garbage. The guards couldn't even dribble the ball past half court & Kermit Washington was injured. Kareem is my #1 for 1977.

2. Bill Walton - 2nd in MVP voting. NBA Champion. Like I said before prime Walton is one of my favorite players because of his crazy versatility, but he's simply not better than Kareem.

3. Julius Erving - 5th in MVP voting. Led his team to the Finals. Alot of people don't know this but Erving dominated the '77 Finals with averages of 30/7/5 54FG% & 2.7 SPG.

4. Pete Maravich - Not a big fan of Pistol Pete, but he was 3rd in MVP voting with averages of 31/5/5. All-NBA First Team. Had the greatest season of his career in '77.

5. Elvin Hayes - 24/13 player on over 50FG%. Made ALL-NBA First Team & took his team to the WCSF.

[JordansBulls]

Dr J's first year in the NBA.

Best team in the league only won 53 games and that was the Lakers.

1. Bill Walton - Finished 2nd in MVP Voting, 3rd in Win Shares PER 48 Minutes, 3rd in PER, 2nd Team All NBA and 1st Team All Defense, Finals MVP

Knocked off the 2 best records in the league and the 2 top seeds in both conferences.


2. Julius Erving - 5th in MVP voting, 4th in Win Shares, 1st in Playoff Win Shares, 2nd in Win Shares PER 48 Minutes in the playoffs, 2nd in playoff PER.

3. Kareem - League MVP, 1st in PER, 1st in Win Shares, 1st in Win Shares PER 48 Minutes, 2nd in playoff Win Shares, 1st in Win Shares PER 48 Minutes, 1st in Playoff PER, 1st Team All NBA and 2nd Team All Defense

* Top Seed got knocked off by the #3 seed.

4. Elvin Hayes - 7th in MVP voting, 3rd in Win Shares on the season, 1st Team All NBA

5. David Thompson - 7th in MVP Voting, 1st Team All NBA


HM: Artis Gilmore

[Jimmy76]

despite the lakers having a better record the blazers SRS is waaaaaay better

probably got their win count suppressed due to Walton's injury

[Mean_Streets]

despite the lakers having a better record the blazers SRS is waaaaaay better

probably got their win count suppressed due to Walton's injury

You aslo have to remember that Kermit Washington didn't play in the WCF that year & Allen was hurt. Kareem's numbers in that '77 postseason were jaw-dropping. 35/18/4 . 3.5 BPG . 1.7 SPG . 61 FG%

[Doctor MJ]

despite the lakers having a better record the blazers SRS is waaaaaay better

probably got their win count suppressed due to Walton's injury

Yeah this is a case that really proves default use of HCA in player ranking to be very flawed.

When team A has much better SRS than team B, team A is better. Team B just got lucky, and to use that good luck as a reason trash a player is crazy. When you factor in that the Lakers had injury issues in the playoffs, it's downright crazy to think of it as a team underachievement at all.

Not saying Kareem should be guaranteed the top spot (I think Walton's got a great case), but as a guy whose handle was inspired by Dr. J, I don't know how you put him ahead of Kareem here.

[fatal9]

Kareem's game logs for the playoffs:

Pts / Reb / Ast / Blks (FGM/FGA)

vs. Warriors:

Game 1: 27/16/7/3 (10/? FG)
Game 2: 40/19/3/9 (18/32 FG)
Game 3: 28/14/7/4 (12/20)
Game 4: 41/18/3/0 (15/?)
Game 5: 45/18/3/3 (16/28)
Game 6: 43/20/3/3 (17/25) Highlights: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTMEtNM44n8
Game 7: 36/26/4/1 (14/26) Highlights: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mloG22I2YtU

Series average: 37.6 ppg, 18.7 rpg, 4.3 apg, 3.3 bpg, 60.7 FG%.

vs. Blazers:

Game 1: 30/10/5/0 (11/19 FG)
Game 2: 40/17/1/3 (17/23 FG) Full game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2oTCUmEFiM
Game 3: 21/20/8/8 (5/12 FG) - foul trouble
Game 4: 30/17/2/4 (12/20) Full game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCTQzI9uf5g

Walton vs. Kareem head to head stats in the playoff series:

KAJ - 30.3 ppg, 16 rpg, 3.8 apg, 3.8 bpg, 60.8 FG%
Walton - 19.3 ppg, 14.8 rpg, 5.8 apg, 2.3 bpg, 51 FG%.

Game 2 and Game 4 from the '77 series are availiable on footage. It's quite clear who the better player was. The difference in the series was the Laker backcourt getting absolutely destroyed. I'm not exaggerating when I say this, but watching them is actually comical because they could not be trusted to even bring the ball up. In game 2, at the end of the third quarter, they turned it over three consecutive possessions before even making it to the half court line (iirc, Kareem went to get rest with Lakers up 8-10 pts, came back and when he came back Lakers were actually trailing). I really wish they kept turnover stats that year. Lucius Allen was also injured during the series. Kermit Washington also didn't play for the Lakers. I voted for Walton in '78, but simply can't put him over Kareem this year. This was Kareem's absolute peak for me. His offensive/scoring skills were above those he had earlier in his Bucks days, he was stronger and had added an unstoppable turnaround jumper that year.

[penbeast0]

Kareem's numbers throughout the 70s were astronomical. My problem with Kareem is that those numbers and the talent around him routinely translated into less of a TEAM than you would expect.

[JordansBulls]

despite the lakers having a better record the blazers SRS is waaaaaay better

probably got their win count suppressed due to Walton's injury

Yeah this is a case that really proves default use of HCA in player ranking to be very flawed.

When team A has much better SRS than team B, team A is better. Team B just got lucky, and to use that good luck as a reason trash a player is crazy. When you factor in that the Lakers had injury issues in the playoffs, it's downright crazy to think of it as a team underachievement at all.

Not saying Kareem should be guaranteed the top spot (I think Walton's got a great case), but as a guy whose handle was inspired by Dr. J, I don't know how you put him ahead of Kareem here.

Disagree here. This is another case like 1995 with how Shaq performed, but also how Hakeem upset two teams that were favorite.

Sure Kareem had the numbers, but they had the best record in the league and didn't even win a game in the series. Whereas Dr J had the 2nd best record but still managed to win 2 games and Dr J's numbers in the finals were awesome as well.

30 PPG / 7 RPG / 5 APG / ~ 3 SPG on 54% FG

[Sedale Threatt]

despite the lakers having a better record the blazers SRS is waaaaaay better

probably got their win count suppressed due to Walton's injury

Yeah this is a case that really proves default use of HCA in player ranking to be very flawed.

Exactly. Rote application does not account for significant injuries to the Lakers (or the Blazers, for that matter), or the fact that multiple measures indicate that the Blazers underperformed in the RS.

Looking at SRS and Pythagorian wins, Portland was the best team in the league. L.A. was around fourth or fifth -- and that was before they got smashed by injuries.

[Sedale Threatt]

Kareem's numbers throughout the 70s were astronomical. My problem with Kareem is that those numbers and the talent around him routinely translated into less of a TEAM than you would expect.

So, what would you say he wasn't doing as compared to UCLA, Milwaukee or in the 80s, when his numbers routinely did translate into success? What was he doing wrong? What was he lacking? How does he pretty much carry the Lakers past G.S. almost by himself, then put up comparable numbers in the next series and his team gets swept? What does this tell you?

[Sedale Threatt]

Kareem's game logs for the playoffs...

Great post. I've read somebody say, I want to say Jerry West, that the Golden State series was as dominant a performance by a single player as they've ever seen. I've watched one of those games before and it was comical -- two or three Warriors players around him pretty much every trip down, and he's still knocking it down.

[Doctor MJ]

despite the lakers having a better record the blazers SRS is waaaaaay better

probably got their win count suppressed due to Walton's injury

Yeah this is a case that really proves default use of HCA in player ranking to be very flawed.

When team A has much better SRS than team B, team A is better. Team B just got lucky, and to use that good luck as a reason trash a player is crazy. When you factor in that the Lakers had injury issues in the playoffs, it's downright crazy to think of it as a team underachievement at all.

Not saying Kareem should be guaranteed the top spot (I think Walton's got a great case), but as a guy whose handle was inspired by Dr. J, I don't know how you put him ahead of Kareem here.

Disagree here. This is another case like 1995 with how Shaq performed, but also how Hakeem upset two teams that were favorite.

Sure Kareem had the numbers, but they had the best record in the league and didn't even win a game in the series. Whereas Dr J had the 2nd best record but still managed to win 2 games and Dr J's numbers in the finals were awesome as well.

30 PPG / 7 RPG / 5 APG / ~ 3 SPG on 54% FG

JB you're not really listening to me. I'll say it one more time:

The HCA argument makes sense generally. It runs into clear problems though when it's unreasonable to think of the team with HCA as the better team. When a team has a slightly better record, a far worse SRS, and injuries it's simply unreasonable to by default chalk up losing a series to underperformance of the healthy players.

[JordansBulls]

JB you're not really listening to me. I'll say it one more time:

The HCA argument makes sense generally. It runs into clear problems though when it's unreasonable to think of the team with HCA as the better team. When a team has a slightly better record, a far worse SRS, and injuries it's simply unreasonable to by default chalk up losing a series to underperformance of the healthy players.

Hey Doc MJ,
I understand what you are saying because Dr J also that same year lost with the HCA. I am just saying that he performed well as well against the Blazers like Kareem did, however Dr J still managed to win a few games in the process against them.

[Optimism Prime]

JB you're not really listening to me. I'll say it one more time:

The HCA argument makes sense generally. It runs into clear problems though when it's unreasonable to think of the team with HCA as the better team. When a team has a slightly better record, a far worse SRS, and injuries it's simply unreasonable to by default chalk up losing a series to underperformance of the healthy players.

Hey Doc MJ,
I understand what you are saying because Dr J also that same year lost with the HCA. I am just saying that he performed well as well against the Blazers like Kareem did, however Dr J still managed to win a few games in the process against them.

Wait, so Dr. J and Kareem were the only ones on the floor against the whole Blazers squad? No wonder KAJ got swept!

I think you mean:

"I understand what you are saying because the 76ers also that same year lost with the HCA. I am just saying that they performed well as well against the Blazers like the Lakers did, however the 76ers still managed to win a few games in the process against them."

Big difference there. As multiple posters have stated now, the Lakers guards couldn't even get the ball across half court on multiple possessions.

Please, enlighten us with your bountiful wisdom: WHAT COULD KAREEM HAVE DONE TO PREVENT THE SHODDY PLAY OF HIS GUARDS?

[fatal9]

Is Dr. J's cast really being compared with what Kareem was working with? The '77 Sixers team was recognized as one of the most talented teams to ever play at the time. The entire storyline of the '77 finals was the teamwork of the Blazers vs. the loaded talent on the Sixers.

Dr. J (all-star)
Collins (all-star)
McGinnis (all-star)
Lloyd Free
Dawkins
Bibby
Mix (if sixth man of the year award existed, he might have won it)

vs.

Kareem (only all-star)
Allen (injured in playoffs)
Washington (didn't even play in the playoffs)
Earl Tatum (a 9/4/2 rookie)
Cazzie Russell (retired the following season)
Don Ford (scrub who was forced to play 30+ mpg because of the injuries)

[Doctor MJ]

So there's a point I want to bring up, and I'll say up front that the arguments made about Kareem are good:

Here is the SRS's for Portland and LA this year and ''77-78:

'77 Blazers 5.39
'77 Lakers 2.65

'78 Blazers 5.92
'78 Lakers 2.59

Notice there's not a tremendous amount of change between the two seasons. So it's hard for me to look at these two seasons are terribly separate things. Whatever your general conclusions (pro-Kareem, pro-Walton, pro-tossup) I think you can make a good case if it doesn't vary a ton between the two seasons.

There is a trend though of people who look at the Blazers' great record in '78, and give big "value" points to Walton for that season but not this season, and I think they're falling pray to illusions to some degree.

Now, a reasonable question to ask is: Doc, aren't you relying a bit too much on SRS when the goal for teams is not to max out SRS but to win games? Well, it's not that I totally ignore W-L records in favor of SRS. However, when a team has easily the best SRS in the entire league, and then wins the title by beating 3 teams with superior records in pretty decisive manners, I don't think it's a coincidence. For the same reason Kareem shouldn't be knocked for being on a team that was "upset", the '77 Blazers absolutely should not be looked at as a mediocre team that happened to win the title. This wasn't the '78 Bullets here.

Both of these Blazer teams were quite strong, and it seems to me you should either buy that Walton had a tremendous team-making impact in both cases, or in neither.

[JordansBulls]

JB you're not really listening to me. I'll say it one more time:

The HCA argument makes sense generally. It runs into clear problems though when it's unreasonable to think of the team with HCA as the better team. When a team has a slightly better record, a far worse SRS, and injuries it's simply unreasonable to by default chalk up losing a series to underperformance of the healthy players.

Hey Doc MJ,
I understand what you are saying because Dr J also that same year lost with the HCA. I am just saying that he performed well as well against the Blazers like Kareem did, however Dr J still managed to win a few games in the process against them.

Wait, so Dr. J and Kareem were the only ones on the floor against the whole Blazers squad? No wonder KAJ got swept!

I think you mean:

"I understand what you are saying because the 76ers also that same year lost with the HCA. I am just saying that they performed well as well against the Blazers like the Lakers did, however the 76ers still managed to win a few games in the process against them."

Big difference there. As multiple posters have stated now, the Lakers guards couldn't even get the ball across half court on multiple possessions.

Please, enlighten us with your bountiful wisdom: WHAT COULD KAREEM HAVE DONE TO PREVENT THE SHODDY PLAY OF HIS GUARDS?

How is it any different from the Houston vs Orlando series in 1995? Most picked Hakeem over Shaq that year even though Shaq played better than Hakeem in that series. Yet Shaq got swept as well in that series.

[toodles23]

Fatal, good post. Where did you find the game logs for Kareem?

I can't vote, but I would definitely put Kareem at #1 this year, and this is coming from a Blazers fan who loves Walton. This was probably when Kareem peaked as a player, it's too bad the team sucked.

[Doctor MJ]

Is Dr. J's cast really being compared with what Kareem was working with? The '77 Sixers team was recognized as one of the most talented teams to ever play at the time. The entire storyline of the '77 finals was the teamwork of the Blazers vs. the loaded talent on the Sixers.

Dr. J (all-star)
Collins (all-star)
McGinnis (all-star)
Lloyd Free
Dawkins
Bibby
Mix (if sixth man of the year award existed, he might have won it)

vs.

Kareem (only all-star)
Allen (injured in playoffs)
Washington (didn't even play in the playoffs)
Earl Tatum (a 9/4/2 rookie)
Cazzie Russell (retired the following season)
Don Ford (scrub who was forced to play 30+ mpg because of the injuries)

The one thing I'll say - while making totally clear that I rank Kareem higher - is that the '77 76ers are exhibit A for why talent if often less important than fit. Other than Moses, McGinnis was easily the most talented teammate Erving ever had, but they weren't a good fit together - and frankly I don't understand why anyone ever thought they would be.

Of course, you still have to wonder if the 76ers don't when back-to-back championships if McGinnis didn't completely fall of a cliff both of the playoffs he played with Erving.