Retro POY '77-78 (Voting Complete)

[ronnymac2]

Is Kareem to blame for the fact that his teams never jelled? I don’t think so. But, when you are talking about the GOAT and comparing him with players whose teams always played well around them (Russell, Magic, etc.), it’s fair to give him little credit for leadership.

Lenny Wilkens said, “You must have someone on your team who demands the respect of the players and has earned that respect by what he does on the court. The coach can only do so much; then its up to the players. Kareem was one of the greatest players ever, but he was not that guy. He won a title with Milwaukee in 1971, when an aging Oscar Robertson came in to join him, and he didn’t win again until Magic arrived in 1980. Kareem is a thoughtful, quiet man. He is not the kind of vocal leader who can inspire a team, despite his greatness on the court.”

Tim Duncan is like that, too. He won't scream at teammates. While he can be animated, he isn't the most demonstrative player in the league. But I'll take him as a leader of my team any day. A leader. Notice I didn't say "The" leader.




You can find a leader in your sixth man. In your 12th man. In your second star. In your superstar. In your best role player. Shane Battier has leadership qualities. Billups. I consider Fisher, Odom, and Bryant to be a triumvirate of leaders for the Lakers, and I don't doubt that somebody else in that lockerroom is right there with them, too. I probably just don't know about it. It's not something I should expect to understand as an outsider, no matter what kind of fan I am.

I'm not penalizing Jabbar for possibly not having some random demonstrative leadership quality that some think is important. There is uncertainty with what the media was saying about him anyway. I'm calling out inconclusive evidence backed up by virtually nothing.

Jordan is a selfish ball-hog who'll never be like Magic and Bird. That's 1990. Then he wins a title. The perception changes. Everybody with a brain knows he wasn't that different of a player. Somehow in 1991, Jordan is a winner.

Bryant, despite being on title teams earlier, can't incorporate teammates and only wants to chase Jordan's scoring records. That's 2006. Yet in 2009, he's a great leader, and competitive alpha-dog who can lead his team to titles.

Yeah, that's what the media makes you believe. Your mind catches an idea and runs with it. Your brain has a defense mechanism for that though. It's called thinking.




Seattle and Washington are like the 2010 Boston Celtics. They don't need a top five superstar to be a top three team in the league. What collections of talent with great fit. This whole notion of this time period being weak is starting to fade for me. It's just that the top stars, the most popular players, weren't fortunate enough to have great teams backing them. I actually think this is a valuable time in the NBA, because it has multiple cases of showing what exactly wins basketball games; that is, teams win basketball games.

Walton is out. Mcadoo is, too. I know he produced, but from everything I've heard and read, Mcadoo wasn't wanted in NY. I'm from NY and have asked people, and they always said that while he was a great player, he didn't do much for NY. Moses is out. Wasn't that level of superstar quite yet. I'm liking Lanier. Not liking Gilmore as much. Gervin, Jabbar, and Erving are in for outstanding years. And for being great players.

Thompson and the PHX players are the guys I don't know THAT much about. I'm going to defer to everybody else here. Everything about this year screams that this was Skywalker's year, that he had a superstar year.

Just want to say that I think Mo Lucas is the most underrated historical player on RealGM. Bill Walton loved him. He was an amazing power forward. Great shot, played great defense, excellent passer and rebounder, and was an enforcer. I'll take that.

Lanier vs. Davis. Uggghhh....this is complete deferrance. I'll go with Davis. Wish I could have researched more. This was a tough week for that though.

Final Rankings:

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Julius Erving
George Gervin
David Thompson
Walter Davis

Super-HM: Bob Lanier

HM: Hayes, Gilmore, Mcadoo, Walton (Because he was that damn good), Unseld

[ronnymac2]

****. Nevermind about Davis. Rookie who didn't wow me in the playoffs. My bad. Bye-bye.

Final Rankings (for real this time):

Kareem-Abdul-Jabbar
Julius Erving
George Gervin
David Thompson
Bob Lanier

[JordansBulls]

My 1978 POY Ballot:

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. George Gervin
3. Julius Erving
4. David Thompson
5. Walter Davis

This year was an exercise in RPOY criteria. Walton, per the standard I established early on, doesn't play when it matters and is out of this mix. Kareem, despite missing 20 games, has no one else comparable to be slotted behind. I've only used games missed when I feel players are on comparable levels, and Gervin would only take my No. 1 if he actually played defense as well.

Speaking of Ice, I've been fairly critical of him, but the 1978 footage I watched finally impressed me. His shot was so money inside that 18-foot comfort zone it was kind of unfair (as a 6-8 guard). Then I saw that his relative TS% was +7.9%, his pace-adjusted scoring was second to Westphal and his assists and rebounding numbers were up too. San Antonio had the second best offense in the league, Gervin exploded in the playoffs, and the articles I read spoke well of his big postseason performances. Guy almost dropped a 5-0 in G2 of the ECF (46 points). Really comfortable with him at No. 2.

Then it got tricky for me. I like the Erving I saw on tape a little more this year, his shooting percentages are back up again, and (coincidentally?) Philly's offense is in strong form again. I'll take Erving's defense and rebounding any day over David Thompson's. Not a great year from Julius but the competition is thin.

Thompson takes the 4th spot. Did make all-nba first team. Then again, so did Truck Robinson. His numbers are a bit inflated - here are the per/75 stats from 1978 for the wings:

Code: Select all

         pts/75   reb/75  ast/75   Rel TS%
Gervin   25.8     4.8     3.5      +7.9%
Davis    24.4     6.1     3.4     + 6.2%
Thompson 23.9     4.3     4.0      +6.3%
Erving   20.9     6.6     3.9      +4.0%


Still, he's an explosive player and definitely a key weapon in a good Denver offense. I'll give Walter Davis the fifth spot over Westphal, trusting the tiebreaker employed by True about his defensive contributions compared to Paul's. Haven't seen much of Davis, but the combination of articles, stats, others words and the few chunks of games I have seen him make him the guy here.

Guys like Hayes, Dandridge, Lanier (injury), McAdoo and Gilmore (look at his turnovers!) all had too many black marks for me. What a wild year.

So Gervin doesn't get the top spot because he doesn't play defense, then why did Magic get the top spot in '87 or Bird in '86 when they were not defensive players?

[Optimism Prime]

My 1978 POY Ballot:

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. George Gervin
3. Julius Erving
4. David Thompson
5. Walter Davis

This year was an exercise in RPOY criteria. Walton, per the standard I established early on, doesn't play when it matters and is out of this mix. Kareem, despite missing 20 games, has no one else comparable to be slotted behind. I've only used games missed when I feel players are on comparable levels, and Gervin would only take my No. 1 if he actually played defense as well.

Speaking of Ice, I've been fairly critical of him, but the 1978 footage I watched finally impressed me. His shot was so money inside that 18-foot comfort zone it was kind of unfair (as a 6-8 guard). Then I saw that his relative TS% was +7.9%, his pace-adjusted scoring was second to Westphal and his assists and rebounding numbers were up too. San Antonio had the second best offense in the league, Gervin exploded in the playoffs, and the articles I read spoke well of his big postseason performances. Guy almost dropped a 5-0 in G2 of the ECF (46 points). Really comfortable with him at No. 2.

Then it got tricky for me. I like the Erving I saw on tape a little more this year, his shooting percentages are back up again, and (coincidentally?) Philly's offense is in strong form again. I'll take Erving's defense and rebounding any day over David Thompson's. Not a great year from Julius but the competition is thin.

Thompson takes the 4th spot. Did make all-nba first team. Then again, so did Truck Robinson. His numbers are a bit inflated - here are the per/75 stats from 1978 for the wings:

Code: Select all

         pts/75   reb/75  ast/75   Rel TS%
Gervin   25.8     4.8     3.5      +7.9%
Davis    24.4     6.1     3.4     + 6.2%
Thompson 23.9     4.3     4.0      +6.3%
Erving   20.9     6.6     3.9      +4.0%


Still, he's an explosive player and definitely a key weapon in a good Denver offense. I'll give Walter Davis the fifth spot over Westphal, trusting the tiebreaker employed by True about his defensive contributions compared to Paul's. Haven't seen much of Davis, but the combination of articles, stats, others words and the few chunks of games I have seen him make him the guy here.

Guys like Hayes, Dandridge, Lanier (injury), McAdoo and Gilmore (look at his turnovers!) all had too many black marks for me. What a wild year.

So Gervin doesn't get the top spot because he doesn't play defense, then why did Magic get the top spot in '87 or Bird in '86 when they were not defensive players?

There's a difference between "not playing defense" and "not being a defensive player."

David Lee doesn't play defense. David West is not a defensive player.

Defense is one of those things, that if you give half a damn about it on the court, it's readily apparent. You don't have to be great at playing defense, you just have to try.

That's my understanding of the difference between Gervin and Bird/Magic.

Anyone else care to weigh in?

[JordansBulls]

That doesn't make sense, Gervin isn't standing there allowing his guy to blow past him or anything. His defense is as good as Magic's and/or Bird's.

[semi-sentient]

Damn, hell of a battle for 1st place this year. This might be the closest 1st/2nd place finish we've ever seen.

[TrueLAfan]

That doesn't make sense, Gervin isn't standing there allowing his guy to blow past him or anything. His defense is as good as Magic's and/or Bird's.

Mmmm...Gervin was a lot worse than Bird/Magic. Gervin simply didn't understand the concept of team defense, and really didn't understand the fundamentals of individual D. (Not really giving a crap about D also played into it.) He didn't know how much room to give. He didn't know how to shade a player so a teammate could come over for help D. Gervin relied almost exclusively on his (enormous) physical gifts; he overplayed and went for steals. It was like he would see th eball, and some part of his brain would light up and go "Ball! Go get it!" If he was one-on-one with a guy and there was no one behind him--didn't matter. If he was too far forward on his toes (and Gervin bit at fakes like crazy) and let the player go by him--too bad. I mean, I've got Gervin first this year and I'm pretty sure I'm keeping him there...but George Gervin was not a good defender in this or any year.

And, yes, I watched Bird and Magic...even when they were too slow to keep up with players, they understood positioning and team defesne well enough to be a massive liability to their teams. At his best, because of his physical skills, Gervin was probably about a C- defender. He had lots of years as a D- or F. Magic and Bird were never, ever that bad.

[Sedale Threatt]

As a committed disciple of win shares, JordansBulls will probably be shocked to know that Bird led the league in defensive win shares four times.

[ElGee]

That doesn't make sense, Gervin isn't standing there allowing his guy to blow past him or anything. His defense is as good as Magic's and/or Bird's.

First, you can read pretty extensive breakdowns from me about these players and their defensive efforts (Bird and Magic) in the individual season threads. If you did that, you'd know that both were better defenders than Gervin, and at certain points both were much better.

Second, it says it right in the post why Kareem is No. 1: he's so far ahead of Gervin because of the defensive side of the ball, that a jump like that, from injuries, would only be possible if George played some D to put them on similar levels. I suppose it would also be possible if he made 10% more of his shots, but since no one has ever scored that well, that seems like an absurd thing to suggest.

[lorak]

Crazy year.

1. Gervin
2. Skywalker
3. KAJ
4. Walton
5. Lanier

[CellarDoor]

KAJ
Walton
Gervin
Thompson
Hm...I really don't feel strongly about anyone after all the pages even. I guess I'll go Lanier.

[DumbyTheWizard]

That doesn't make sense, Gervin isn't standing there allowing his guy to blow past him or anything. His defense is as good as Magic's and/or Bird's.

Mmmm...Gervin was a lot worse than Bird/Magic. Gervin simply didn't understand the concept of team defense, and really didn't understand the fundamentals of individual D. (Not really giving a crap about D also played into it.) He didn't know how much room to give. He didn't know how to shade a player so a teammate could come over for help D. Gervin relied almost exclusively on his (enormous) physical gifts; he overplayed and went for steals. It was like he would see th eball, and some part of his brain would light up and go "Ball! Go get it!" If he was one-on-one with a guy and there was no one behind him--didn't matter. If he was too far forward on his toes (and Gervin bit at fakes like crazy) and let the player go by him--too bad. I mean, I've got Gervin first this year and I'm pretty sure I'm keeping him there...but George Gervin was not a good defender in this or any year.

And, yes, I watched Bird and Magic...even when they were too slow to keep up with players, they understood positioning and team defesne well enough to be a massive liability to their teams. At his best, because of his physical skills, Gervin was probably about a C- defender. He had lots of years as a D- or F. Magic and Bird were never, ever that bad.

Do you have some stats to back this down?

With no numbers, dont even try to talk sense to JB, he wont listen.

Good post tho, but you are falling on deaf ears.

[Doctor MJ]

Last call.

[ElGee]

I took a quick count last night and I believe Gervin and KAJ swapped the lead back and forth on every vote on this final page. If someone had them 1-2 (instead of all the 1-3 votes) we could have had a tie. The crazy year produces crazy results assuming no one else votes...

Also, if Gervin had one RPOY am I the only one who feels like he would personally want that on his resume?

[Doctor MJ]

'77-78 Results

Code: Select all

Player                1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts   POY Shares
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar  8   2   4   1   1 118   0.738
2. George Gervin        6   3   7   0   0 116   0.725
3. Bill Walton          2   8   2   1   0  89   0.556
4. David Thompson       0   1   2  10   2  49   0.306
5. Julius Erving        0   1   1   4   2  26   0.163
6. Elvin Hayes          0   1   0   0   4  11   0.069
7. Bob Lanier           0   0   0   0   3   3   0.019
8. Bob McAdoo           0   0   0   0   2   2   0.013
  Walter Davis          0   0   0   0   2   2   0.013


[Doctor MJ]

Dayum that was close.

[Mean_Streets]

Close indeed. BTW why does the tites now say "Retro POY '76-77 (Voting Complete) "

[Doctor MJ]

Close indeed. BTW why does the tites now say "Retro POY '76-77 (Voting Complete) "

Ha, cause I'm trying to do too many things at once. Thanks for the catch.

[JordansBulls]

1st time someone won POY without even winning a playoff series.

[semi-sentient]

Site updated: www.dolem.com/poy

Kareem continues his climb towards the top, jumping over KG and Moses Malone. He'll likely pass Kobe, Hakeem, and Karl Malone after the next round of voting is complete. Julius Erving is sneaking up on Robinson for the #13 spot.

Code: Select all

1.  Michael Jordan        9.578
2.  Magic Johnson         7.114
3.  Tim Duncan            6.153
4.  Larry Bird            6.147
5.  Shaquille O'Neal      5.910
6.  Karl Malone           4.649
7.  Hakeem Olajuwon       4.380
8.  Kobe Bryant           4.326
9.  Kareem Abdul-Jabbar   3.890
10. Moses Malone          3.478
11. Kevin Garnett         3.388
12. LeBron James          3.083
13. David Robinson        2.431
14. Julius Erving         2.355
15. Dwyane Wade           2.179