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What should we do now?

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vincecarter4pres
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Re: What should we do now? 

Post#61 » by vincecarter4pres » Sun Aug 1, 2010 9:45 pm

Hopefully this is the last year we are in the lottery, but we need one more year of it to pick up an elite level wing or point guard prospect unless we make a blockbuster trade or two.

We make the playoffs this year as is, and as a fan I couldn't be prouder. I'll cheer them on and relish the moment, but what doesn't make sense is to go out and make moves that make us a perrenial 7th/8th seed with little room for growth.

Even worse would be to go from a team that on it's own should win from around 22 to 35 games and make a trade that guarantees us wins in the low to high 30's, taking us out of high lotto territory and simultaneoulsy missing the playoffs, all while killing caproom and/or spending assets.
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Rich Rane wrote:I think we're all missing the point here. vc4pres needs to stop watching games.
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Re: What should we do now? 

Post#62 » by enetric » Sun Aug 1, 2010 11:44 pm

demens wrote:
Neither the Spurs or Sonics made it a goal to be the worst team in the league like some fans here want the Nets to do. Spurs were bad because Robinson was injured, and Sonics 30+ wins is not too bad. Being a bad team is no guarantee to get a top pick and getting a top pick is no guarantee to get a superstar. '

There is no sure shot way to get a superstar, thats why the best way to go is to accumulate as much talent as possible and compete. That includes getting late round picks and trading for 'mediocre" not game changing players that WILL improve the team, but not "significantly. Then your team is gonna be A) competitive so superstar free agents wont laugh at the idea of coming to a 12 win team, B) have the assets to trade for stars C) have the assets to trade for high picks. You're not gonna develop into a contender saving cap space to trade for Chris Paul, and you wont develop into 1 by tanking.

You site Spurs and OKC as example of landing starts in the draft. Then you have to site perennial losers like the Clippers and Warriors that have had top 5 top 10 picks forever it seems and are still losers. We had our top 10 pick, we had our top 11 pick, and we had our top 3 pick. How many chances do you want?


About the only thing you wrote that was accurate was this:

"Being a bad team is no guarantee to get a top pick and getting a top pick is no guarantee to get a superstar.

There is no sure shot way to get a superstar...."

But of course then you followed it up with this absolute dribble....

"thats why the best way to go is to accumulate as much talent as possible and compete. That includes getting late round picks and trading for 'mediocre" not game changing players that WILL improve the team, but not "significantly. Then your team is gonna be A) competitive so superstar free agents wont laugh at the idea of coming to a 12 win team, B) have the assets to trade for stars C) have the assets to trade for high picks. You're not gonna develop into a contender saving cap space to trade for Chris Paul, and you wont develop into 1 by tanking."

First off, you have no examples of teams that added bad contracts of mediocre players, giving away their cap space, adding low picks as a result, lowering their chances at the top tier picks...that were then able to add elite talent by trade or free agency.

Low picks, and the bad contract type mediocre players you covet do not add superstars. Most superstars are drafted in the top of the lottery...not 10-15...1-5...the very place you want to drive us away from. If you make trades that block cap space, cant sing guys anyway. Superstars...do not come to Newark, or OKC, or Minny...or whatever small market by free agency anyway. We were optimistic we could change that luck two summers early...and capitalize on our planned move to a big market. It was in fact...too early.

You say if we trade for low draft picks and add mediocre older players we are in a better position to add superstars? That we will be more attractive to other superstars because of that level of talent? We already know, top tier players go for market, money or the chance to play with OTHER top tier players.

And, you say we we will be in a better positioning to trade for top tier picks by following your plan? What are you smoking? Top tier picks are traded for proven all star caliber talent, or they are traded for other top picks/prospects. Since you goal is to ensure we add neither...how in the world did you help us?

And of course the obvious question has to be asked. Why is it better to give away tradeable cap space for those mediocre players rather than save it to trade for top tier talent that might be on the trade market later (as there is every year or two)? Better question...since trading mediocre players and low first rounders do NOT get you top of the lottery draft picks...and again...most superstars are DRAFTED with the top 1-5 picks....how can you not see that LOSING games and gaining those top five picks for your sacrifice actually DOES get you there?

You of course follow all of this bizarre logic up inaccurately sliding past the success of two teams in this conversation that are where they are for the sacrifice of losing. That just made it worse.


It would be nice if you EVER knew what the hell you were talking about.

At the end of 2006 the Sonics were a team sitting on two all star caliber players following a mediocre 35 win season. The team was then sold to an Oklahoma City business group. They followed up that season with public feuds between ownership and the city of Seattle over a new arena deal by winning 31 games for the 2006-2007 season.

This of course begins the Presit era. They had some ping pong ball luck in that lottery following their poor season and landed the #2 pick in the draft which was Durant, nothing genius about it....luck. They were still sitting on those two all star caliber players at the time with that 31 win record...so not that bad you say? YEAH ITS Bad.

They were an example of a team stuck in that mediocrity you are so fond of driving us toward and opted to go with the get awful and rebuild route once luck changed their team direction. They could have just said great, Durant with Lewis and Allen, lets be competitive, after three weak seasons but they didnt. They did the exact thing you constantly preach against. They gave the first one of their stars (Ray Allen) away for a #5 overall pick, Jeff Green in that same draft.

Had the Celtics who were the second worst team in the NBA that season by record landed a top 2 pick in that draft...they NEVER deal it for Ray Allen. They keep it, take Oden or Durant and probably deal Pierce and go the rebuild route, again the thing you are against. But it was the Sonics instead who did it and either way, a example of having top 5 picks being the strongest driving force changing your team's fortunes. One by trade, and the other by the value of stockpiling these top tier young assets.

The second of their all star caliber talents, Rashard Lewis...was a restricted free agent. They had no intention of paying him since yes....their goal was to rebuild...a nice word for sucking awful so you can get top lottery picks. Rashard actually said as much...that he wanted to leave because the team was rebuilding. So they let him go and did a sign and trade, picking up a conditional second rounder and a large TPE as the compensation part of the deal.

And what happened next is the exact example of why you dont know what the hell you are talking about as you rip Rod Thorn for his 15-25 picks that resulted in mediocre to poor returns since that is mostly what you get in those picks anyway.

Already landing the future franchise player Durant with a #2, and the solid role guy at #5 in Green....the started off 3-14, and finished with all of 20 wins. Boy...that Presti...what a genius!!!! Your Messiah....managed to land a #4 pick in the next draft...landing Russel Westbrook. So? THREE top 5 picks in two years...with a declining record and full scale salary dump to get here to this point. Still waiting for the Tayshaun Prince and AK like spending sprees you preach we should make. They took their lumps. lost awful...got great talent for their losing....and then started to come back. Oh wait? Did they?

Nope. ONE MORE AWFUL SEASON including a 14 game losing streak, a 3-29 start, and an improvement from 20 wins to a rockin 23 wins. And behold...the #3 pick in the draft...James Harden. WOW!!!! What genius!!!!! A team that you love...that did EXACTLY what those of us who know what they have been talking about are preaching. Well not exactly, he did make that terrible trade of Roddy Beubois for Mullens in that same draft.

We come off a #10 and a #11...both great picks by Rod Thorn the guy you hate, a #3 pick with the jury still out on him. Yet you are against us continuing the all out suckage like the Thunder did...so that perhaps we can land a Durant. You are against a shot a the same plan where we land some top 5 talent.

That's FOUR top five picks in three years, an all out salary dump...no major spending along the way.....just dump...and rebuild, LOSE, LOSE,LOSE SOME more...and BAM....how nice it is to be sitting on this young top tier talent rather than over pay for 30 win seasons, mediocre draft picks, veteran mediocre talent on bad contracts in their declining years.

They did EXACTLY what it is we are preaching. SUCK for the purpose of getting better. And of course...there are no guarantees for us, just as there were no guarantees for them. What if instead of Durant they landed any other team in that draft. Do you think they would be a playoff team? Would you still be up Presti's ass???? You say thing like there are no guarantees, but yet those you say you admire did the exact opposite of the thing you say we should do. You prefer to do something that has constantly resulted in failure in this league.

Its amazing who you jock....and you dont even know why. You want us to waste cap space on guys who will help us win a handful more games, end up with a lower percentage chance of landing a top pick, block our ability to sign or trade for better talent later. WHY????????? Why doesn't a light ever go off inside your head? Are you just perennial stubborn? Is it this way throughout your life? Everyone says....that's rediculus...shows it to you...leads you to it....and even if you can even see an example of something you admire contradicting your own off the mark opinions....you are incapable of seeing it? Or is it that you see it...and you are just incapable of ADMITTING IT????

PS- And The Spurs? Greatest luck of all in a bizarre way. They had a contending caliber team winning 55, 62, and 59 games including one MVP season for David Robinson. They made it to the conference finals in the last of those two seasons. Then the Spurs lose its franchise superstar to injury for a season going from 59 wins to 20. That resulted in landing the #1 overall pick Tim Duncan. Without that luck...the Spurs never win a single title. But either way? Once again...LOSING BIG paid OFF BIG!!!!

At some point in life it might benefit you to take a deep breath and just consider...is it possible...I am just not as well informed a I think I am? Do it before people start dismissing you as a damn fool.
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Re: What should we do now? 

Post#63 » by demens » Sun Aug 1, 2010 11:50 pm

Making a move that makes us an 8th seed can be beneficial for a few reasons.

If its a case of taking on salary to help another team, that player is almost certain to come with a benefit of a late round pick. Last year showed that even with the worst team 1st pick is no given. So if its a choice between having a 25-30 win team thats a lock for a 7-12 pick (which i think this team is now), i'd rather make that trade and be a 35-40 win team locked into 11-15 pick and have an extra 1st rounder.

Another benefit is cap space NEXT year. I would have preferred taking on a overpaid player on a SHORT 1 year deal then lock up Outlaw for 5 years or Petro for anything more then a week (yes he sucks that bad). The funny thing is that doing something like this would still leave us flexible enough to make moves at the deadline.

And last but not least, something that gets completely taken for granted. The psychological aspect of losing. I dont think fighting off the worst record in history does these young players any good, multiple season like this can all but destroy their confidence. It causes internal problems as well, its just a natural direct result of losing. This is why i DONT want to throw Favors to the wolves, but have him come off the bench and slowly gain confidence. I think the idea of "play-off" experience is a bit overrated, but its a hell of a lot more useful then losing blow-outs and being the laughing stock of the league. We saw a team last year that had decent talent on it, but it didn't know how to win. Not that we were "IN" many games, but we found a way to loose enough games down the stretch that effected the teams standings pretty significantly. You can say that about any bad team, they find ways to lose and that something i dont want these young players to keep learning.

If a young team goes on to loose 70 games in back to back seasons i dont care if you add Melo and Paul, these guys will CHOKE when the games are on the line because thats what they've learned how to do, they didn't learn how to win.
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Re: What should we do now? 

Post#64 » by enetric » Mon Aug 2, 2010 12:07 am

I have absolutely no problem adding an expiring contract with cap space for compensation of something like extra picks.

However, those moves can be add at the trade deadline too. We of course will have half a year to try and fish for a deal that adds QUALITY talent with our pure cap space....and that other team will try to shop its expirings for talent they feel fits them as well.

If both teams strikeout...they often go in the other direction and get together. Save cash, low compsation...give the cap space...for the compensation. But still...no need to do it now. You still get what you are after. And the downside to what you are preaching is worse than the downside of not finding a deal like that later. What if...the trade for cap space to acquire a star IS THERE? Yet you gave it away for a low first and a few extra wins. No turning back. It is worth it to risk a low first rounder...you know one more of those picks that usually results in mediocrity....one more of those picks you rip Rod for...despite the fact that there was so little major talent to be found in those picks anyway.

As for losing....again see your Thunder. How does winning 30 games help your confidence so much more than 15-20? You know whaqt helps your confidence? The NEXT season when you come back after feeling sick of losing so you work harder on your body and your game and suddenly you see some legit HELP acquired in the draft. Someone to HELP YOU.

As for Favors...

More than likely...he wont be thrown to the Wolves anyway. More than likely...he sees a portion of minutes for the first half of the season. From there...either he gets traded with the cap space we hopefully didnt waste...for a star player, or he shows improvment...and gets encouraged by the reward of more minutes. That can be part of the process too.

In fact...most top lottery picks have to endure a couple of horrible seasons. Missing the playoffs really doenst come with degrees of suckage for these guys.

And if we add Melo and Paul...as your examples? He wont be here for you to worry about. Unlikely we get both...even one is a long shot. So the queastion becomes the same. Why waste tradeable assets like cap room now for medicority? Why not wait, show poise...not panic and see what's out there? The downside is extreme losing...and another top 5 pick? Worked out pretty good for other GM's you seem to like.

You still havent given a good reason to waste that opportunity in August.

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