Retro POY '75-76 (Voting Complete)
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Retro POY '75-76 (Voting Complete)
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Retro POY '75-76 (Voting Complete)
In this thread we'll discuss and vote on the top 5 best player seasons of '75-76.
Trying something new now. Schedule will be Mon-Fri, and Thu-Mon. Typically this will be morning to morning.
Some things to start us off:
NBA
Season Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... _1976.html
Playoff Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... _1976.html
Award Voting http://www.basketball-reference.com/awa ... _1976.html
Final Box Score http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1976.htm
ABA
Season Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... _1976.html
Playoff Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... _1976.html
Topics
Last year of 2 leagues
Julius Erving on fire
Kareem switches teams
Trying something new now. Schedule will be Mon-Fri, and Thu-Mon. Typically this will be morning to morning.
Some things to start us off:
NBA
Season Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... _1976.html
Playoff Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... _1976.html
Award Voting http://www.basketball-reference.com/awa ... _1976.html
Final Box Score http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1976.htm
ABA
Season Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... _1976.html
Playoff Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... _1976.html
Topics
Last year of 2 leagues
Julius Erving on fire
Kareem switches teams
Re: Retro POY '75-76 (ends Fri Morning)
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Re: Retro POY '75-76 (ends Fri Morning)
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: I know he didn't reach the playoffs, but he is that good. Won NBA MVP despite his team not making the playoffs. 28/17/5 53FG% & 4 BPG. Nobody in the NBA is close to his level this year. ABA's Julius Erving has an argument. but you have to wonder if Dr.J's numbers would be less impressive if he played in the NBA instead of the ABA in '76, his numbers did drop once he entered the league in '77. Do you seriously think '76 Erving is a better individual player than '76 Kareem?
2. Julius Erving - Dominated the ABA. Won ABA MVP & a championship. Just like Kareem, he was by far the best player in his league. I just wish Kareem & Erving played in the same league in '76 so we can have a clearer view to who the better player was.
3. Dave Cowens - 19/16/4 player. All-NBA 2nd Team. Very good defender. Led his team to an NBA Championship this year.
4. Artis Gilmore - The Best center in the ABA. 25/16 player. Great defender & led his team to the ABA semifinals.
5. Rick Barry - Great All-around player. All-NBA First Team. Led his team to the WCF.
2. Julius Erving - Dominated the ABA. Won ABA MVP & a championship. Just like Kareem, he was by far the best player in his league. I just wish Kareem & Erving played in the same league in '76 so we can have a clearer view to who the better player was.
3. Dave Cowens - 19/16/4 player. All-NBA 2nd Team. Very good defender. Led his team to an NBA Championship this year.
4. Artis Gilmore - The Best center in the ABA. 25/16 player. Great defender & led his team to the ABA semifinals.
5. Rick Barry - Great All-around player. All-NBA First Team. Led his team to the WCF.
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Re: Retro POY '75-76 (ends Fri Morning)
Article on the trade, as well as a brief look around the NBA:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=5E ... 46,4179833
Another article on Kareem to LA:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=8A ... 878,636513
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=5E ... 46,4179833
Another article on Kareem to LA:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=8A ... 878,636513
I remember your posts from the RPOY project, you consistently brought it. Please continue to do so, sir. This board needs guys like you to counteract ... worthless posters
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Re: Retro POY '75-76 (ends Fri Morning)
1. Julius Erving - ABA MVP, Led in Win Shares, Win Shares PER 48 Minutes, PER in the season and playoffs and won the NBA Title
2. Dave Cowens - 3rd in MVP Voting, 3rd in Win Shares, 1st in Playoff Win Shares, 2nd Team All NBA and 1st Team Defensive Team
3. Artis Gilmore - 1st Team All ABA and 1st Team ABA Defense, 2nd in Win Shares, 2nd in Win Shares PER 48 Minutes and 2nd in PER. 2nd in Win Shares in the playoffs, 3rd in Win Shares PER 48 Minutes, 2nd in Playoff PER.
4. Kareem - League MVP - Dominant Stats all around. Not making the playoffs is what really hurts him in this debate. Since 2003 I usually left guys off the list that didn't make the playoffs.
5. Bob Mcadoo - 2nd in MVP voting, 2nd in Win Shares, 4th in WS Per 48 Minutes, 3rd in PER
2. Dave Cowens - 3rd in MVP Voting, 3rd in Win Shares, 1st in Playoff Win Shares, 2nd Team All NBA and 1st Team Defensive Team
3. Artis Gilmore - 1st Team All ABA and 1st Team ABA Defense, 2nd in Win Shares, 2nd in Win Shares PER 48 Minutes and 2nd in PER. 2nd in Win Shares in the playoffs, 3rd in Win Shares PER 48 Minutes, 2nd in Playoff PER.
4. Kareem - League MVP - Dominant Stats all around. Not making the playoffs is what really hurts him in this debate. Since 2003 I usually left guys off the list that didn't make the playoffs.
5. Bob Mcadoo - 2nd in MVP voting, 2nd in Win Shares, 4th in WS Per 48 Minutes, 3rd in PER
Considering Kareem didn't even make the playoffs and then demanded a trade from the Bucks and the Bucks made the playoffs once Kareem left while they didn't in his last year with them
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Re: Retro POY '75-76 (ends Fri Morning)
ABA MVP Vote: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=83 ... +aba&hl=en
Erving 32
B. Jones 1
Thompson 1
J. Silas 1
Panel of 35 writers, 5 from each of the ABA cities.
Erving 32
B. Jones 1
Thompson 1
J. Silas 1
Panel of 35 writers, 5 from each of the ABA cities.
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Re: Retro POY '75-76 (ends Fri Morning)
I also have something else to say. The Lakers didn't make the playoffs in '76 because of the stupid format. The Lakers had better records than the Bucks & Pistons in '76, but didn't make the playoffs while Detroit & Milwaukee did. And it's not like the Bucks improved once Kareem left, the won 38 games in '75 and 38 in '76
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Re: Retro POY '75-76 (ends Fri Morning)
Mean_Streets wrote:I also have something else to say. The Lakers didn't make the playoffs in '76 because of the stupid format. The Lakers had better records than the Bucks & Pistons in '76, but didn't make the playoffs while Detroit & Milwaukee did. And it's not like the Bucks improved once Kareem left, the won 38 games in '75 and 38 in '76
Yes I agree the format was crazy, however it is interesting that the team was still able to win just as many games with Kareem as without while one year with him they didn't make the playoffs and the next they did with him.
Also the fact he requested a trade to LA or NY and still didnt even make the playoffs is a big knock as well IMO at least.
While Dr J and Kareem weren't in the same league, that is the fun part of joining the two leagues together. Dr J dominated more in the ABA that year than Kareem did in the NBA. And you can even see the next year when Dr J came into the NBA he took his team to the finals.

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JordansBulls wrote:Mean_Streets wrote:I also have something else to say. The Lakers didn't make the playoffs in '76 because of the stupid format. The Lakers had better records than the Bucks & Pistons in '76, but didn't make the playoffs while Detroit & Milwaukee did. And it's not like the Bucks improved once Kareem left, the won 38 games in '75 and 38 in '76
Yes I agree the format was crazy, however it is interesting that the team was still able to win just as many games with Kareem as without while one year with him they didn't make the playoffs and the next they did with him.
Kareem did miss 17 games in '75. L. Allen only played 10 games. Their 4th leading scorer Jim Price missed half the season in '75. And once you dig deeper, the '75 team was actually better than the '76 team. I don't care if the '76 team made the playoffs, both teams won 38 games.
1975 Bucks
Team: 100.7 PPG
Opponents: 100.5 PPG
SRS: 0.25
1976 Bucks
Team: 101.8 PPG
Opponents: 103.3 PPG
SRS: -1.56
And both the Offensive & Defensive ratings were better in '75 than they were in '76.
And the fact that you put a 35 year old Havlicek & a young ABA Gervin over a prime Kareem who was the most dominant player in the NBA, won NBA MVP & should of been in the playoffs tells me something is not right.
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Re: Retro POY '75-76 (ends Fri Morning)
Going to chime in here so that people realize how good Julius Erving was.
This year, he led his team in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks. He won the MVP, he made the All-Defensive team, he won the first slam dunk competition. He won the title, he won the Finals MVP. In the playoffs his PER was 32.0, and no one else in the ABA was above 24.2, in the Finals he averaged 38 points and 14 rebounds while going up against Bobby Jones, the premier forward defender of the era.
The next year he was removed from the Nets with the merger. The team he beat in the ABA finals, the Nuggets end up having the 2nd best record and 2nd best SRS in the entire NBA (losing to the the team with the best SRS in the playoffs), how do the Nets do? They are by far the worst team in the entire NBA, winning only 22 games with the second worst team winning 30. For comparison, that's 60 losses in a league where no one won more than 53 games.
Julius Erving when used properly was literally the difference between being far worse than every other team, and being better than the 2nd best team in the league. He can make more of a case of winning a major league championship by himself than anyone in history - his year this year is absolutely on the short list of GOAT peaks in history.
You're damn right he'll be my #1, and it won't be close.
This year, he led his team in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks. He won the MVP, he made the All-Defensive team, he won the first slam dunk competition. He won the title, he won the Finals MVP. In the playoffs his PER was 32.0, and no one else in the ABA was above 24.2, in the Finals he averaged 38 points and 14 rebounds while going up against Bobby Jones, the premier forward defender of the era.
The next year he was removed from the Nets with the merger. The team he beat in the ABA finals, the Nuggets end up having the 2nd best record and 2nd best SRS in the entire NBA (losing to the the team with the best SRS in the playoffs), how do the Nets do? They are by far the worst team in the entire NBA, winning only 22 games with the second worst team winning 30. For comparison, that's 60 losses in a league where no one won more than 53 games.
Julius Erving when used properly was literally the difference between being far worse than every other team, and being better than the 2nd best team in the league. He can make more of a case of winning a major league championship by himself than anyone in history - his year this year is absolutely on the short list of GOAT peaks in history.
You're damn right he'll be my #1, and it won't be close.
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Re: Retro POY '75-76 (ends Fri Morning)
Mean_Streets wrote:JordansBulls wrote:Mean_Streets wrote:I also have something else to say. The Lakers didn't make the playoffs in '76 because of the stupid format. The Lakers had better records than the Bucks & Pistons in '76, but didn't make the playoffs while Detroit & Milwaukee did. And it's not like the Bucks improved once Kareem left, the won 38 games in '75 and 38 in '76
Yes I agree the format was crazy, however it is interesting that the team was still able to win just as many games with Kareem as without while one year with him they didn't make the playoffs and the next they did with him.
Kareem did miss 17 games in '75. L. Allen only played 10 games. Their 4th leading scorer Jim Price missed half the season in '75. And once you dig deeper, the '75 team was actually better than the '76 team. I don't care if the '76 team made the playoffs, both teams won 38 games.
1975 Bucks
Team: 100.7 PPG
Opponents: 100.5 PPG
SRS: 0.25
1976 Bucks
Team: 101.8 PPG
Opponents: 103.3 PPG
SRS: -1.56
And both the Offensive & Defensive ratings were better in '75 than they were in '76.
And the fact that you put a 35 year old Havlicek & a young ABA Gervin over a prime Kareem who was the most dominant player in the NBA, won NBA MVP & should of been in the playoffs tells me something is not right.
Havlicek was 1st team defense and 2nd team all NBA.
From what I remember in this project, rarely did anyone make the top 5 when they didnt' make the playoffs that year which to me to even qualify you have to make the playoffs.
Also again, if you demand a trade to a team you should be able to make the playoffs with them as well.
1963 will be another one as well IMO.

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Re: Retro POY '75-76 (ends Fri Morning)
For some reason I thought we weren't including ABA players. Did this change recently?
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Re: Retro POY '75-76 (ends Fri Morning)
semi-sentient wrote:For some reason I thought we weren't including ABA players. Did this change recently?
On June 23rd I asked this question as well.
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1004743&start=721

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Re: Retro POY '75-76 (ends Fri Morning)
semi-sentient wrote:For some reason I thought we weren't including ABA players. Did this change recently?
Nah, having NBA & ABA players go head to head has always been one of the key things I wanted to see.
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Re: Retro POY '75-76 (ends Fri Morning)
Thought I'd try and see how good the “other” Lakers were on the 1976 team. I'm not a huge fan of PER, and Win Shares are inexact, but I'm going to use both here to find somewhat similar players from the last few years. I'm getting something like this (minutes played/PER/Win shares)
1976 Gail Goodrich (2646/17.1/5.1) = 2005 Rafer Alston (2717/16.5/5.5)
1976 Cornell Warner (2512/10.2/4.3) = 2009 Luc Mbah a Moute (2114/12.3/4.0)
1976 Lucius Allen (2388/15.1/3.9) = 2006 Steve Francis (2393/15.2/3.6)
1976 Don Ford (1838/11.6/2.0) = 2007 Gerald Green (1779/12.0/1.6)
1976 Corky Calhoun (1816/9.0/2.5) = 2005 Quinton Ross (1659/8.9/1.7)
1976 Cazzie Russell (1625/14.7/3.0) = 2008 Wally Szczerbiak (1736/13.9/2.9)
1976 Donnie Freeman (1480/14.5/2.4) = 2010 Jerryd Bayless (1304/14.3/2.7)
1976 Stu Lantz (853/9.8/1.0) – 2009 Kevin Ollie (850/9.9/1.2)
So,without Kareem, you've got a lineup of
C –
PF – 2009 Luc Mbah a Moute
SF – 2008 Wally Szczerbiak
SG – 2006 Steve Francis
PG – 2005 Rafer Alston
PG/SG – 2010 Jerryd Bayless
SG/SF – 2005 Quinton Ross
PF/SF – 2007 Gerald Green
PG/SG – 2009 Kevin Ollie
This first thing you notice is...Christ, who's going to rebound on that team? And it's a good question. I also looked at the rebound rates of players to make sure they were similar. Well, you might wonder, who was the Lakers backup C? Or at least their other tough frontcourt player? Well, that would be Kermit Washington...for a whopping 500 minutes. And then it was Jim McDaniels and Walt Wesley for 250 minutes. And that was it.
Then you ask...My God, who's playing D? I mean, Quinton Ross is a good defender,,,but who else? And that's accurate too...Corky Calhoun was the “other” defensive player on the 1976 Lakers. The Lakers were 13th in the League in D with Kareem, who would have in the running for DPOY. Without Kareem, they would have finished in the 20s, which would have been quite a feat in the 18 team NBA of 1976.
So put an average C on that team. Samuel Dalembert-- he gets a lot of Sh**, but he's probably an average C...probably even a little above. How many games does that team win? (If you want, you can replace Rafer Alston with Jason Terry from last year...it's not as close, but go with it if you want.)
Well, I think it would be a miracle if they got to 30 wins. I think 20 or under is more likely than 30. I figure the over/under is around 20-23 for a team like that. The team might be a hair better than the Nets were last year. Maybe.
The point is that nobody was going to get that team to have home court advantage in playoffs. Nobody. It would take a small miracle to get them to .500. And Kareem did not provide that miracle. The Lakers won only 40 games. But that still means that Kareem was worth 15-20 wins more than a replacement level player. And that makes him a (very) strong MVP candidate.
1976 Gail Goodrich (2646/17.1/5.1) = 2005 Rafer Alston (2717/16.5/5.5)
1976 Cornell Warner (2512/10.2/4.3) = 2009 Luc Mbah a Moute (2114/12.3/4.0)
1976 Lucius Allen (2388/15.1/3.9) = 2006 Steve Francis (2393/15.2/3.6)
1976 Don Ford (1838/11.6/2.0) = 2007 Gerald Green (1779/12.0/1.6)
1976 Corky Calhoun (1816/9.0/2.5) = 2005 Quinton Ross (1659/8.9/1.7)
1976 Cazzie Russell (1625/14.7/3.0) = 2008 Wally Szczerbiak (1736/13.9/2.9)
1976 Donnie Freeman (1480/14.5/2.4) = 2010 Jerryd Bayless (1304/14.3/2.7)
1976 Stu Lantz (853/9.8/1.0) – 2009 Kevin Ollie (850/9.9/1.2)
So,without Kareem, you've got a lineup of
C –
PF – 2009 Luc Mbah a Moute
SF – 2008 Wally Szczerbiak
SG – 2006 Steve Francis
PG – 2005 Rafer Alston
PG/SG – 2010 Jerryd Bayless
SG/SF – 2005 Quinton Ross
PF/SF – 2007 Gerald Green
PG/SG – 2009 Kevin Ollie
This first thing you notice is...Christ, who's going to rebound on that team? And it's a good question. I also looked at the rebound rates of players to make sure they were similar. Well, you might wonder, who was the Lakers backup C? Or at least their other tough frontcourt player? Well, that would be Kermit Washington...for a whopping 500 minutes. And then it was Jim McDaniels and Walt Wesley for 250 minutes. And that was it.
Then you ask...My God, who's playing D? I mean, Quinton Ross is a good defender,,,but who else? And that's accurate too...Corky Calhoun was the “other” defensive player on the 1976 Lakers. The Lakers were 13th in the League in D with Kareem, who would have in the running for DPOY. Without Kareem, they would have finished in the 20s, which would have been quite a feat in the 18 team NBA of 1976.
So put an average C on that team. Samuel Dalembert-- he gets a lot of Sh**, but he's probably an average C...probably even a little above. How many games does that team win? (If you want, you can replace Rafer Alston with Jason Terry from last year...it's not as close, but go with it if you want.)
Well, I think it would be a miracle if they got to 30 wins. I think 20 or under is more likely than 30. I figure the over/under is around 20-23 for a team like that. The team might be a hair better than the Nets were last year. Maybe.
The point is that nobody was going to get that team to have home court advantage in playoffs. Nobody. It would take a small miracle to get them to .500. And Kareem did not provide that miracle. The Lakers won only 40 games. But that still means that Kareem was worth 15-20 wins more than a replacement level player. And that makes him a (very) strong MVP candidate.
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That being said, my top 5 this year are as follows (with only 1 and 2 locked in stone)
1. Julius Erving. Doctor MJ already posted the info, so I won't repeat it. Erving was, simply, a beast. This was his greatest year, he totally and completely dominated the regular season, stepped it up a notch in playoffs, and won a title.
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. Kareem said he felt this was his best year in Giant Steps. I hadf Jordan third in 1986-7 when the Bulls won 40 games. And, frankly, I'd take 1975 Kareem of 1987 Jordan. So I've got no problem with putting Kareem at #2. He was totally and completely dominant. He just had a s*** team.
3. Bob McAdoo. The end of his peak, but what a peak it was! Gave the Celtics all they could handle in the playoffs. (I remember thinking that the Celtics got away with murder in that series, and I wasn't alone.) I'm a fan of intangibles, but the idea that Dave Cowens' team was better because Cowens had good intangibles is nuts, IMO. Cowens' team was better because it had Paul Silas, Jo Jo White, John Havlicek, Charlie Scott, and Don Nelson on it. To get the ring, the Celtics also had Richie Powers, the alcoholic, mentally unstable Celtic fan who also happened to be an NBA referee and didn't want the Celtics to lose the Finals on a technicality. Bah. Doo was great this year. He maximized a flawed team. Good for you, Doo.
4. Dave Cowens. Shot the ball relatively well this year. Good passer. Defense was overrated, but he was still very good. His best rebounding year. I think Dave Cowens got more juice from the insidious anti-ABA racism than any other player in the NBA. But that's not his fault, and he was a great player...and this was one of his best years.
5. Artis Gilmore. Healthy Artis did it all, and this was Healthy Artis. 25 and 16 during the RS; 24 and 15 (but on 61% shooting in less court time) in the playoffs. Losing to the loaded Denver Nuggets in seven in the playoffs; I don't hold that against him.
1. Julius Erving. Doctor MJ already posted the info, so I won't repeat it. Erving was, simply, a beast. This was his greatest year, he totally and completely dominated the regular season, stepped it up a notch in playoffs, and won a title.
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. Kareem said he felt this was his best year in Giant Steps. I hadf Jordan third in 1986-7 when the Bulls won 40 games. And, frankly, I'd take 1975 Kareem of 1987 Jordan. So I've got no problem with putting Kareem at #2. He was totally and completely dominant. He just had a s*** team.
3. Bob McAdoo. The end of his peak, but what a peak it was! Gave the Celtics all they could handle in the playoffs. (I remember thinking that the Celtics got away with murder in that series, and I wasn't alone.) I'm a fan of intangibles, but the idea that Dave Cowens' team was better because Cowens had good intangibles is nuts, IMO. Cowens' team was better because it had Paul Silas, Jo Jo White, John Havlicek, Charlie Scott, and Don Nelson on it. To get the ring, the Celtics also had Richie Powers, the alcoholic, mentally unstable Celtic fan who also happened to be an NBA referee and didn't want the Celtics to lose the Finals on a technicality. Bah. Doo was great this year. He maximized a flawed team. Good for you, Doo.
4. Dave Cowens. Shot the ball relatively well this year. Good passer. Defense was overrated, but he was still very good. His best rebounding year. I think Dave Cowens got more juice from the insidious anti-ABA racism than any other player in the NBA. But that's not his fault, and he was a great player...and this was one of his best years.
5. Artis Gilmore. Healthy Artis did it all, and this was Healthy Artis. 25 and 16 during the RS; 24 and 15 (but on 61% shooting in less court time) in the playoffs. Losing to the loaded Denver Nuggets in seven in the playoffs; I don't hold that against him.

Re: Retro POY '75-76 (ends Fri Morning)
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Re: Retro POY '75-76 (ends Fri Morning)
Mean_Streets wrote:JordansBulls wrote:Mean_Streets wrote:I also have something else to say. The Lakers didn't make the playoffs in '76 because of the stupid format. The Lakers had better records than the Bucks & Pistons in '76, but didn't make the playoffs while Detroit & Milwaukee did. And it's not like the Bucks improved once Kareem left, the won 38 games in '75 and 38 in '76
Yes I agree the format was crazy, however it is interesting that the team was still able to win just as many games with Kareem as without while one year with him they didn't make the playoffs and the next they did with him.
Kareem did miss 17 games in '75. L. Allen only played 10 games. Their 4th leading scorer Jim Price missed half the season in '75. And once you dig deeper, the '75 team was actually better than the '76 team. I don't care if the '76 team made the playoffs, both teams won 38 games.
1975 Bucks
Team: 100.7 PPG
Opponents: 100.5 PPG
SRS: 0.25
1976 Bucks
Team: 101.8 PPG
Opponents: 103.3 PPG
SRS: -1.56
And both the Offensive & Defensive ratings were better in '75 than they were in '76.
And the fact that you put a 35 year old Havlicek & a young ABA Gervin over a prime Kareem who was the most dominant player in the NBA, won NBA MVP & should of been in the playoffs tells me something is not right.
If you ever find yourself reading one of JB's posts in this project and finding yourself saying stuff like "huh?" or "how the hell did he come to that conclusion?" ask yourself if he's really just trying to take votes away from guys that might challenge Jordan and you'll have your answer.
Re: Retro POY '75-76 (ends Fri Morning)
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Re: Retro POY '75-76 (ends Fri Morning)
Manuel Calavera wrote:If you ever find yourself reading one of JB's posts in this project and finding yourself saying stuff like "huh?" or "how the hell did he come to that conclusion?" ask yourself if he's really just trying to take votes away from guys that might challenge Jordan and you'll have your answer.
GTFO. Like I said, you don't even come up with any analisis yourself. All you do is list 5 players and give no explanation. Nearly in everyone of the threads you essentially you write 5 guys down and say nothing else. You essentially just pick based off what everyone else does. So who are you to talk?
These were all your votes from now until 2000.
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1042101&start=83 - 1977
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1038315&start=103 - 1980
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1021572&start=47 - 1987
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1020700&start=104 - 1988
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1019399&start=105 - 1990
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1019399 - Your original post
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1018243&start=89 - 1991
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1014424&start=210 - 1996
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1013034&start=91 - 1998
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1011634&start=114 - 2000
Like it has been mentioned if you can't even make the playoffs why should you even be in the top 5 list? If you didn't even play enough games why should you be in the top 5 list?
If you lost in round 1, why should you be considered the #1 guy that year?
If a player won League MVP and the the title that year they are #1 period.
IF a player lost with HCA he probably will not be my #1 that year unless all the other candidates did as well (example: 2004 - KG was #1 but Duncan, Shaq, Kobe and JO all lost with HCA as well).
Re: Retro POY '75-76 (ends Fri Morning)
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Re: Retro POY '75-76 (ends Fri Morning)
1. Julius Erving
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Bob McAdoo
4. Dave Cowens
5. Artis Gilmore
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Bob McAdoo
4. Dave Cowens
5. Artis Gilmore
penbeast0 wrote:Yes, he did. And as a mod, I can't even put him on ignore . . . sigh.
Re: Retro POY '75-76 (ends Fri Morning)
- Optimism Prime
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Re: Retro POY '75-76 (ends Fri Morning)
For the split years, I'm going to do a top-5 NBA and ABA each just so I can get a clearer picture of where each player ranks compared to their peers. Then I'll break it down into overall top-5.
Thus, the NBA '75-'76.
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. 28/17/5/1.5/4. He didn't make the playoffs, I know. Even if we acknowledge that up to this point, "making the playoffs" seems to have been a prerequisite in the actual MVP voting, Kareem is the only person in history to have won without meeting that criterion. If his award had been a landslide, I could potentially see him getting the top NBA spot from me.
Bob McAdoo. Very close MVP runner-up. 31/12/4/1/2 is pretty stellar. Good playoffs; lost to the eventual champions.
Dave Cowens. 19/16/4/1/2; 3rd in MVP voting. I know that Jo Jo White got Finals MVP, but is a 22/4/6 that much more impressive than a 21/16/3? I don't see it. If Jo Jo made clutch play after clutch play, then that makes sense... can someone elaborate on why the Finals MVP went to white?
Rick Barry. 21/6/6/2.5, 4th in MVP voting. From what I know of Barry, though, he was a singularly unpleasant individual, and it takes a lot to overcome that sort of thing in my eyes. They don't have to be as charismatic or have the intangibles of Walton, and being an aloof teammate (like Kareem) is fine. But being loathed? That's something else. But again, I don't know much about this period... was Barry as reviled as I've heard? How does he compare to other maniacally driven superstars like Kobe and Jordan?
George McGinnis, Elvin Hayes, Tiny Archibald: 5th, 8th, and 9th in MVP voting; fringe candidates.
ABA:
Julius Erving. 29/11/5/2.5/2. 35/13/5/2/2 in the playoffs. That doesn't suck. One thing I'd like to play Devil's advocate about: people always talk about the diluted talent that Russell and Wilt played against. Erving played against six other teams this year. He was the face of the ABA and the elder statesman of the league. Pulling from Simmons again:
Thompson/Jones. Each got an MVP vote. Thompson had 26/6/4/1.5/1; Jones had 15/10/4/2/2. Playoff numbers were 26/6/3/1 and 14/9/5/1/2. Jones' regular season--wow. Has there been a more well-rounded season than Jones? Solid scoring, good rebounding and passing, and 2 blocks and steals a game. I'm impressed.
Marvin Barnes. 24/11/2/2/2.
Artis Gilmore. 25/16/3/2. (Why no MVP love for him?)
So... where does that leave me?
NBA:
Bob McAdoo
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Dave Cowens
Elvin Hayes
Rick Barry
ABA:
Julius Erving
Artis Gilmore
Bobby Jones
David Thompson
Marvin Barnes
Overall (Final vote if I don't change it):
1. Julius Erving
2. Bob McAdoo
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Artis Gilmore
5. Dave Cowens
So yeah. I have questions about this year... Anyone care to answer?
Thus, the NBA '75-'76.
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. 28/17/5/1.5/4. He didn't make the playoffs, I know. Even if we acknowledge that up to this point, "making the playoffs" seems to have been a prerequisite in the actual MVP voting, Kareem is the only person in history to have won without meeting that criterion. If his award had been a landslide, I could potentially see him getting the top NBA spot from me.
Bob McAdoo. Very close MVP runner-up. 31/12/4/1/2 is pretty stellar. Good playoffs; lost to the eventual champions.
Dave Cowens. 19/16/4/1/2; 3rd in MVP voting. I know that Jo Jo White got Finals MVP, but is a 22/4/6 that much more impressive than a 21/16/3? I don't see it. If Jo Jo made clutch play after clutch play, then that makes sense... can someone elaborate on why the Finals MVP went to white?
Rick Barry. 21/6/6/2.5, 4th in MVP voting. From what I know of Barry, though, he was a singularly unpleasant individual, and it takes a lot to overcome that sort of thing in my eyes. They don't have to be as charismatic or have the intangibles of Walton, and being an aloof teammate (like Kareem) is fine. But being loathed? That's something else. But again, I don't know much about this period... was Barry as reviled as I've heard? How does he compare to other maniacally driven superstars like Kobe and Jordan?
George McGinnis, Elvin Hayes, Tiny Archibald: 5th, 8th, and 9th in MVP voting; fringe candidates.
ABA:
Julius Erving. 29/11/5/2.5/2. 35/13/5/2/2 in the playoffs. That doesn't suck. One thing I'd like to play Devil's advocate about: people always talk about the diluted talent that Russell and Wilt played against. Erving played against six other teams this year. He was the face of the ABA and the elder statesman of the league. Pulling from Simmons again:
Older voters... confirm/deny? (Still not going to affect my placement of him; just curious.)I'm dubious of Doc's ABA stats. This was already a league where nobody played D, only ABA opponents were about as physical with Doc as President Obama's cronies are with the prez during a White House basketball game. Could that help explain why he never found quite the same success in the NBA? I think so.
Thompson/Jones. Each got an MVP vote. Thompson had 26/6/4/1.5/1; Jones had 15/10/4/2/2. Playoff numbers were 26/6/3/1 and 14/9/5/1/2. Jones' regular season--wow. Has there been a more well-rounded season than Jones? Solid scoring, good rebounding and passing, and 2 blocks and steals a game. I'm impressed.
Marvin Barnes. 24/11/2/2/2.
Artis Gilmore. 25/16/3/2. (Why no MVP love for him?)
So... where does that leave me?
NBA:
Bob McAdoo
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Dave Cowens
Elvin Hayes
Rick Barry
ABA:
Julius Erving
Artis Gilmore
Bobby Jones
David Thompson
Marvin Barnes
Overall (Final vote if I don't change it):
1. Julius Erving
2. Bob McAdoo
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Artis Gilmore
5. Dave Cowens
So yeah. I have questions about this year... Anyone care to answer?

Hello ladies. Look at your posts. Now back to mine. Now back at your posts now back to MINE. Sadly, they aren't mine. But if your posts started using Optimism™, they could sound like mine. This post is now diamonds.
I'm on a horse.
I'm on a horse.
Re: Retro POY '75-76 (ends Fri Morning)
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Re: Retro POY '75-76 (ends Fri Morning)
For this season there are two different leagues so comps are a bit more arbitrary however still, a good team in one league should be a good team in the other – if anything, with contraction, the ABA teams have more talent (but less cohesion as players shuffled around and everyone knew the league was crashing and burning).
In the ABA, there were basically 4 good teams. The regular season champion Denver, playoff victor New York, San Antonio, and Kentucky. The NBA had GS building on their ring the previous year as the regular season champion (just like the Bullets when they won a ring with a poor record then had best record in the league but lost in the playoffs – interesting dynamic), Boston as the 2nd best regular season but champion (just like the Nets), plus a bunch of .500+ teams – Cleveland! (league’s 3rd best record and ECF), Washington, Buffalo, Philly, plus 2 teams from the weak western conference that barely broke .500 in Seattle and WCF winner Phoenix. Kareem demanded a trade from Milwaukee after their sub .500 season to LA and had another sub .500 season with great numbers as the only real losing team with an MVP candidate (Milwaukee finished 2 wins below LA for the same record as 75, LA improved by 10 wins)
I would say Boston is the best team this season with their combination of ring, win%, and talent. Very balanced scoring with no one getting 20ppg but they won mainly with defense and the key to that was Dave Cowens plus his 16 rebounds a game are another key (Kareem led the league). He did step up his playoff scoring while Havlicek and Scott slipped. His shooting percentage was mediocre for a center and the good talent around him (Havlicek, Silas, Jojo White, Charlie Scott) are the arguments against him.
ABA Champion NY was clearly Julius Erving’s team (also a top defensive team with Brian Taylor, Kim Hughes, and Erving). He scored 29ppg to Taylor’s 17 and also led the team in rebounding, assists, steals, and blocks! A monster year by Julius before the confusion of his early Philly teams.
Denver was the ABA regular season champion and losing finalist as Julius torched all-time great defender Bobby Jones. David Thompson, Dan Issel and Ralph Simpson provided great scoring, Jones gave them defense and efficiency with ok but not monster numbers while actually playing good minutes (14.5/9.5/4 + 2 st/2bl per game) but I’d probably call him the MVP of the team despite Thompson great season though I would guess Thompson is the popular choice.
Golden State had a record as good as Denver’s though it lost to .500 Phoenix in a playoff upset. Barry led the team in scoring (though only by 1ppg), assists and steals but his numbers were actually low for him (21/6/6) and Phil Smith and Jamaal Wilkes scored 20 and 18 with good defense and better efficiency; GS was the best defensive team in the league! Smith also stepped it up in the plaoffs to match Barry in scoring at much greater efficiency so I’m not sure Barry is even the best on his team though he certainly was the face of the franchise and probably the main MVP candidate.
Cleveland and Washington were the next best teams in the NBA and Cleveland won their playoff matchup but it’s hard to push anyone on the team other than Coach Bill Fitch. Their best player was probably Jim Chones who led the team in scoring with 16.9/2 + 1 block – not exactly MVP numbers. He was also injured for half their playoffs, leaving them with 13.8ppg by Jim Cleamons to lead the team in playoff points, and yet they were 3rd in the league and make the ECF!
Washington was led, as usual, by Elvin Hayes with 20/11 on .470 shooting (20/13 on .436 in the playoffs). They had good years from Phil Chenier, Wes Unseld and support from Dave Bing and young 6th man Truck Robinson but were beat out by Cleveland in both the regular and post season so I don’t see Hayes as more than a marginal candidate.
San Antonio also finished with with a similar record in the chaotic ABA. Their best player, however, was not Gervin but PG James Silas who outscored Gervin with better efficiency and a more complete game. Silas also had a rep as a great clutch shooter, nickname was Captain Late, but his knee blew out in game one of the playoffs and he was never the same player again. Ice stepped up with a big playoffs as did Kenon but they weren’t enough.
Kentucky traded Dan Issel and replaced him with Maurice Lucas, but weren’t as good as the previous year despite Gilmore’s 25/16/2 block on .550fg% season. Gilmore is still a legit candidate though, actually increasing his fg% to over .600 in the playoffs.
The next two teams were Buffalo and Philly with identical .561 records but the Braves beat the Sixers in the 1st round. McAdoo had another monster year with 31/12/4.
The Sixers star was free agent George McGinnis (23/13/5) as Billy Cunningham only played 20 games.
The league’s other .500 teams were Phoenix, who actually made it to the NBA finals, and the Supersonics. Phoenix’s leading scorer was Paul Westphal but their best player was undersized center Alvin Adams 19/9/6, one of the best high post passers in NBA history – I wish he could have played PF with a real center the way Issel got to play with Gilmore for awhile but he wasn’t strong enough to play the beast centers like Cowens did.
Seattle didn’t yet have Gus Williams (GS), or collegiates DJ and Sikma, but still managed a winning record behind the outside shooting of Downtown Freddie Brown (23/4/3).
Kareem’s numbers on a losing LA team were even more impressive than McAdoo’s in Buffalo (28/17/5/4 blocks) though LA didn’t make the playoffs. He also played all 82 games.
So, the legit candidates are –
Winners: Erving, Cowens, Bobby Jones
Numbers: Kareem, McAdoo, Gilmore
I have to give the MVP to Julius Erving. He had monster numbers AND took his team to the ABA title. It really isn’t close this year.
1. Julius Erving
The next problem is that Kareem is the best player but on a bad team, while Cowens and Jones played for the best teams but weren’t in Kareem’s class individually.
2. Kareem
3. Dave Cowens
4. Artis Gilmore
5. Bob McAdoo
Very hard to leave off either Bobby Jones/David Thompson from that Denver team and I shuffled them a couple of times but numbers won out this time. Plus, a special mention for James Silas who was turning into a terrific player before the knee blew out.
In the ABA, there were basically 4 good teams. The regular season champion Denver, playoff victor New York, San Antonio, and Kentucky. The NBA had GS building on their ring the previous year as the regular season champion (just like the Bullets when they won a ring with a poor record then had best record in the league but lost in the playoffs – interesting dynamic), Boston as the 2nd best regular season but champion (just like the Nets), plus a bunch of .500+ teams – Cleveland! (league’s 3rd best record and ECF), Washington, Buffalo, Philly, plus 2 teams from the weak western conference that barely broke .500 in Seattle and WCF winner Phoenix. Kareem demanded a trade from Milwaukee after their sub .500 season to LA and had another sub .500 season with great numbers as the only real losing team with an MVP candidate (Milwaukee finished 2 wins below LA for the same record as 75, LA improved by 10 wins)
I would say Boston is the best team this season with their combination of ring, win%, and talent. Very balanced scoring with no one getting 20ppg but they won mainly with defense and the key to that was Dave Cowens plus his 16 rebounds a game are another key (Kareem led the league). He did step up his playoff scoring while Havlicek and Scott slipped. His shooting percentage was mediocre for a center and the good talent around him (Havlicek, Silas, Jojo White, Charlie Scott) are the arguments against him.
ABA Champion NY was clearly Julius Erving’s team (also a top defensive team with Brian Taylor, Kim Hughes, and Erving). He scored 29ppg to Taylor’s 17 and also led the team in rebounding, assists, steals, and blocks! A monster year by Julius before the confusion of his early Philly teams.
Denver was the ABA regular season champion and losing finalist as Julius torched all-time great defender Bobby Jones. David Thompson, Dan Issel and Ralph Simpson provided great scoring, Jones gave them defense and efficiency with ok but not monster numbers while actually playing good minutes (14.5/9.5/4 + 2 st/2bl per game) but I’d probably call him the MVP of the team despite Thompson great season though I would guess Thompson is the popular choice.
Golden State had a record as good as Denver’s though it lost to .500 Phoenix in a playoff upset. Barry led the team in scoring (though only by 1ppg), assists and steals but his numbers were actually low for him (21/6/6) and Phil Smith and Jamaal Wilkes scored 20 and 18 with good defense and better efficiency; GS was the best defensive team in the league! Smith also stepped it up in the plaoffs to match Barry in scoring at much greater efficiency so I’m not sure Barry is even the best on his team though he certainly was the face of the franchise and probably the main MVP candidate.
Cleveland and Washington were the next best teams in the NBA and Cleveland won their playoff matchup but it’s hard to push anyone on the team other than Coach Bill Fitch. Their best player was probably Jim Chones who led the team in scoring with 16.9/2 + 1 block – not exactly MVP numbers. He was also injured for half their playoffs, leaving them with 13.8ppg by Jim Cleamons to lead the team in playoff points, and yet they were 3rd in the league and make the ECF!
Washington was led, as usual, by Elvin Hayes with 20/11 on .470 shooting (20/13 on .436 in the playoffs). They had good years from Phil Chenier, Wes Unseld and support from Dave Bing and young 6th man Truck Robinson but were beat out by Cleveland in both the regular and post season so I don’t see Hayes as more than a marginal candidate.
San Antonio also finished with with a similar record in the chaotic ABA. Their best player, however, was not Gervin but PG James Silas who outscored Gervin with better efficiency and a more complete game. Silas also had a rep as a great clutch shooter, nickname was Captain Late, but his knee blew out in game one of the playoffs and he was never the same player again. Ice stepped up with a big playoffs as did Kenon but they weren’t enough.
Kentucky traded Dan Issel and replaced him with Maurice Lucas, but weren’t as good as the previous year despite Gilmore’s 25/16/2 block on .550fg% season. Gilmore is still a legit candidate though, actually increasing his fg% to over .600 in the playoffs.
The next two teams were Buffalo and Philly with identical .561 records but the Braves beat the Sixers in the 1st round. McAdoo had another monster year with 31/12/4.
The Sixers star was free agent George McGinnis (23/13/5) as Billy Cunningham only played 20 games.
The league’s other .500 teams were Phoenix, who actually made it to the NBA finals, and the Supersonics. Phoenix’s leading scorer was Paul Westphal but their best player was undersized center Alvin Adams 19/9/6, one of the best high post passers in NBA history – I wish he could have played PF with a real center the way Issel got to play with Gilmore for awhile but he wasn’t strong enough to play the beast centers like Cowens did.
Seattle didn’t yet have Gus Williams (GS), or collegiates DJ and Sikma, but still managed a winning record behind the outside shooting of Downtown Freddie Brown (23/4/3).
Kareem’s numbers on a losing LA team were even more impressive than McAdoo’s in Buffalo (28/17/5/4 blocks) though LA didn’t make the playoffs. He also played all 82 games.
So, the legit candidates are –
Winners: Erving, Cowens, Bobby Jones
Numbers: Kareem, McAdoo, Gilmore
I have to give the MVP to Julius Erving. He had monster numbers AND took his team to the ABA title. It really isn’t close this year.
1. Julius Erving
The next problem is that Kareem is the best player but on a bad team, while Cowens and Jones played for the best teams but weren’t in Kareem’s class individually.
2. Kareem
3. Dave Cowens
4. Artis Gilmore
5. Bob McAdoo
Very hard to leave off either Bobby Jones/David Thompson from that Denver team and I shuffled them a couple of times but numbers won out this time. Plus, a special mention for James Silas who was turning into a terrific player before the knee blew out.
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.