Retro POY '75-76 (Voting Complete)

[Doctor MJ]

ABA:
Julius Erving. 29/11/5/2.5/2. 35/13/5/2/2 in the playoffs. That doesn't suck. One thing I'd like to play Devil's advocate about: people always talk about the diluted talent that Russell and Wilt played against. Erving played against six other teams this year. He was the face of the ABA and the elder statesman of the league. Pulling from Simmons again:

I'm dubious of Doc's ABA stats. This was already a league where nobody played D, only ABA opponents were about as physical with Doc as President Obama's cronies are with the prez during a White House basketball game. Could that help explain why he never found quite the same success in the NBA? I think so.

Older voters... confirm/deny? (Still not going to affect my placement of him; just curious.)
Thompson/Jones. Each got an MVP vote. Thompson had 26/6/4/1.5/1; Jones had 15/10/4/2/2. Playoff numbers were 26/6/3/1 and 14/9/5/1/2. Jones' regular season--wow. Has there been a more well-rounded season than Jones? Solid scoring, good rebounding and passing, and 2 blocks and steals a game. I'm impressed.
Marvin Barnes. 24/11/2/2/2.
Artis Gilmore. 25/16/3/2. (Why no MVP love for him?)

While I'm an older voter by RealGM standards, this is definitely before my time. That said, Simmons stat concerns to me indicate his characteristic laziness. In the early years of the ABA, stats were clearly inflated due to weak competition, but by the last few years this wasn't an issue any more. Stat analysis of guys who went from the ABA to the NBA with the merger shows no clear trend of them doing worse in the NBA. And hell, that Nugget team Erving torches in the finals this year, stays intact and ends up with the best defensive efficiency in the entire NBA in '76-77. Erving went from a team that built it's strategy around him over a few years, to one not architected really at all - that was the main difference. Erving did have some injury problems his first few years in the NBA, but still, judging by his playoff performance in '76-77, the big difference was that the 76ers tried to fit him in with McGinnis & co. When they actually re-tooled, the 76ers became a great team again with Erving looking more like his oldself.

Re: No MVP love for Gilmore. This says more about MVP voting than it does about Gilmore. The two Nuggets got votes because the Nuggets were by far the best team in the regular season, the Spur almost certainly got a because they too were arguably better than the Nets in the regular season and a San Antonio person got a vote. Gilmore got no votes because no reasonable person anywhere would have given their vote to a guy on a team clearly worse than Erving's team.

I'm basically certain that if they had had top 5 votes with weights like the current MVP system, Gilmore would have been 2nd or 3rd. The only doubt in my mind is whether voters would have rallied enough behind one Nugget for him to pass up Gilmore. Gilmore will definitely be my #2 ABA this year.

[ThaRegul8r]

"He's not just playing great basketball now—he's superhuman," Nets' coach Kevin Lougherty on Julius Erving:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=YX ... 97,1132957

Erving block with five seconds left preserves a 110-108 win over San Antonio in Game 5 of the ABA Semifinal series.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=7I ... 35,3491823

Game 1: New York 120, Denver 118
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=dX ... 311,564608

"He's just one of the best players in the world. I've never seen him play better," Bobby Jones on Julius Erving:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=OQ ... 251,756743

Game 3: New York 117, Denver 111
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=eZ ... 037,636076

Game 5: Denver 118, New York 110
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Kx ... 52,2598936

Game 6: New York 112, Denver 106
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=8X ... 96,1426693
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=oQ ... 09,1866409
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=al ... 00,3031275

"The shame is that some people, possibly many people, don't appreciate Doctor J's skills because ABA games are not shown on national television."
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Kh ... 03,2097687

"Nets' Erving Dominating Final Series."
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=xB ... 092,394893

"'Doctor J' is the greatest offensive player in the game today, nobody barred."
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=nb ... 911,965430

[Warspite]

Quite frankly anyone who doesnt have DrJ #1 realy needs to do some soul searching. Theres no bigger fan of KAJ than True LA Fan and he has DRJ #1. I honestly thought this is the one yr that it would be unamious.

[ThaRegul8r]

Quite frankly anyone who doesnt have DrJ #1 realy needs to do some soul searching. Theres no bigger fan of KAJ than True LA Fan and he has DRJ #1. I honestly thought this is the one yr that it would be unamious.

Yeah, this is pretty much a no-brainer.

[ItsMillerTime]

Early rankings

1. Dr. J
2. KAJ
3. Cowens
4. McAdoo
5. Gilmore

HM: Hondo, Barry

[ElGee]

TrueLA, that's an interesting little comparison, even if I don't agree with all the modern counterparts. (Don Ford has no equal!) Everyone's mentioned the difference in the Bucks, but no one has mentioned the difference in the Lakers:

1975 Lakers
-3.9 SRS. 96.1 ORtg (-1.6). 99.9 DRtg (-2.2)

1976 Lakers
0.1 SRS. 98.9 ORtg (+0.6). 98.8 DRtg (-0.5)

The 75 team was injury ridden. But they basically replaced Winters, Elmore Smith and Happy Hairston with Kareem and got healthier minutes from Lucious Allen, Cazzie Russell and Corky Calhoun (~1500 more MP).

I'm not wild about these kind of year-to-year comparisons when there are a lot of smaller pieces changing places, but there is clearly an impact here and I think it's safe to assume a large chunk of it is Kareem. It's not exactly earth-shattering, but it's a fairly clear improvement.

I'm actually interested on other takes here as I've been wondering lately why Magic's Lakers had no change (or even improved) once Kareem was no longer a piece in the offense (after 1986). Shouldn't 25 points and 4 assists per 36 minutes (118 ORtg) of automatic post offense be having a greater impact? Not that it's a big knock on Kareem -- dude barbecued Boston in the 85 Finals with great team results -- but I'm thinking of Braess's Paradox again...

[Doctor MJ]

I'm actually interested on other takes here as I've been wondering lately why Magic's Lakers had no change (or even improved) once Kareem was no longer a piece in the offense (after 1986). Shouldn't 25 points and 4 assists per 36 minutes (118 ORtg) of automatic post offense be having a greater impact? Not that it's a big knock on Kareem -- dude barbecued Boston in the 85 Finals with great team results -- but I'm thinking of Braess's Paradox again...

My thought is that's not really a Braess' Paradox example. After all, Magic scored more in '87 than Kareem scored in '86. This isn't a team getting better without their star by learning to play more together, this is just the team coming to realize even more than before that Magic is an amazing, amazing player that they can utilize even more than they already have.

I don't think it's any major knock on '86 Kareem to say he wasn't as good of an offensive player as prime Magic.

[andykeikei]

From what I remember in this project, rarely did anyone make the top 5 when they didnt' make the playoffs that year which to me to even qualify you have to make the playoffs.
Also again, if you demand a trade to a team you should be able to make the playoffs with them as well.
1963 will be another one as well IMO.

1976 Lakers won 40 games and was 6th in the West; 1987 Bulls won 40 games and was 8th in the East. So hypothetically, the Lakers would get to play in the playoff in 1987 while the Bulls would not in 1976. Yet you have Jordan as the 2nd best player in 1987 and Kareem couldn't even make the top 5!

Despite Kareem was 1st in WS, WS/48, rebounds per game, blocks per game; 2nd in points per game, minutes per game, defensive rating; won the MVP, was selected All-NBA 1st team, All-Defensive 2nd team...

I mean if you go purely by statistic (which I don't agree as you have to look in context), 1976 Kareem was a player that as dominant as you can get. I can understand people putting Erving 1st as he also dominated the ABA and won the title. But I can never understand not putting Kareem in top 5. Its not like he was a team cancer or a stat padder like Adrian Dantley. May be he could provide more leadership, but is it enough to overcome the fact that he had crap teammates?

[JordansBulls]

From what I remember in this project, rarely did anyone make the top 5 when they didnt' make the playoffs that year which to me to even qualify you have to make the playoffs.
Also again, if you demand a trade to a team you should be able to make the playoffs with them as well.
1963 will be another one as well IMO.

1976 Lakers won 40 games and was 6th in the West; 1987 Bulls won 40 games and was 8th in the East. So hypothetically, the Lakers would get to play in the playoff in 1987 while the Bulls would not in 1976. Yet you have Jordan as the 2nd best player in 1987 and Kareem couldn't even make the top 5!

Despite Kareem was 1st in WS, WS/48, rebounds per game, blocks per game; 2nd in points per game, minutes per game, defensive rating; won the MVP, was selected All-NBA 1st team, All-Defensive 2nd team...

I mean if you go purely by statistic (which I don't agree as you have to look in context), 1976 Kareem was a player that as dominant as you can get. I can understand people putting Erving 1st as he also dominated the ABA and won the title. But I can never understand not putting Kareem in top 5. Its not like he was a team cancer or a stat padder like Adrian Dantley. May be he could provide more leadership, but is it enough to overcome the fact that he had crap teammates?

The guy demanded a trade from his team and got to pick where he wanted to go. It was either NY or LA (two organizations that were already winning organizations) and not to mention they knew the rules beforehand and got to play with Gail Goodrich who also was an allstar before Kareem ever got there. Also the fact his team the Bucks made the playoffs the year he left while he was with them his last year they didn't even make the playoffs.
Not to mention that half of the good players were in the ABA at the time as well.
If you don't make the playoffs, why should you even be on the list?

It would be like CP3 demanding a trade to the Knicks this year and the Hornets make the playoffs without him and the Knicks don't make the playoffs.

In 2005 Kobe didn't make the playoffs either and wasn't on the list. In 1992 Hakeem didn't make the playoffs and wasn't on the list either. Making the playoffs IMO is huge IMO which is why in 2003 and 2002 I didn't list MJ as top 5.

[pancakes3]

first and foremost, nice season, summary penbeast.

i don't think "demanding a trade" is as big a deal as you're making it JB. i know you're trying to say that KAJ got to pick his teammates a la Lebron and picked a team where he couldn't succeed, however you can't point at the fact that his team didn't make the playoffs and just write off all the on-court accomplishments he made that season. That defeats the purpose of this project, doesn't it? You're turning this list into a boolean search for made playoffs, led league in WS, etc. I mean, then why have voters at all? This would be done much faster on a spreadsheet.

I do think that making/winning in the playoffs is huge, but in this case I think KAJ's stats speak for themselves. It's not just the raw numbers, it's also the stats relative to KAJ's career. He had career years in rpg, bpg, 2nd highest apg, and 4th highest FTA. It was a banner year even for KAJ standards. i'd be willing to ignore the lack of playoffs and give him a spot on the list.

also it's been mentioned that in the NFLesque playoff structure, KAJ would have made the playoffs that year if he was in the right division. you're faulting him for picking a tough division and terrible teammates? isn't that exactly opposite of what people now are faulting lebron for doing?

i'll ignore that last MJ bit.

my list

Dr J - swept every meaningful award (including his sole all-d 1st team nod) and won the championship.
KAJ - sick stats and NBA MVP.
McAdoo - guy never seems to be given his due, even by the NBA itself (all-nba nod went to george mcginnis? cowens understandable but mcginnis?). scoring leader who drew more fouls than anyone else by 80 FTAs.
Gilmore - great stats, all-aba, all d 1st teamer. gets the edge over cowens because of shotblocking, not that cowens wasn't a good defender in his own right.
Cowens - best player on the nba championship squad. loses points in my book because his teammates were so talented, and also just wasn't a clearcut dominant force at any one thing. Dr. J was hands down better than anyone he played against, KAj also, mac was a better scorer than anyone else (in either league), gilmore a rebounder (by 4 a game!). cowens was noted for his rebounding and came 2nd to KAJ. No shame there but 5th is really as high as you can put him.

[semi-sentient]

Can someone please explain why Doc's stats fell off so much from ABA to NBA? Was the game played at a much faster pace? Was the competition that much weaker? Was he asked to do much less in his prime when he went to the NBA?

The fact that he played less minutes does not really account for his drop off either, with exception to assists.

Code: Select all

                   MIN   PTS   TS%   REB   AST   STL   BLK   TOV
================================================================
    ABA Averages:  40.7  28.7  .558  12.1  4.8   2.4   2.0   4.0
NBA (ages 26-31):  35.0  23.6  .564   7.4  4.2   2.0   1.6   2.8

Should players from the ABA be given as much weight as NBA players? Does an ABA MVP have as much value as an NBA MVP? What would Kareem's numbers have looked like in the ABA?

It's hard for me to give the two leagues equal weight when one had less talent, teams. I'm still looking at Dr. J at #1 this year, but going forward this is going to have to be given some thought.

[TrueLAfan]

Re: The ABA. Simmons is following/going along with the NBA party line from 1968-1975. “The ABA is street basketball; all offense and no defense.” Okay. Now, explain Mel Daniels, Bobby Jones, Artis Gilmore, Brian Taylor, Willie Wise, Zelmo Beaty, Caldwell Jones, Mike Gale, Julius Keye, Don Buse, Wil Jones, and Julius Erving. Isn’t that kind of a lot of great defensive players in an 8 team league over a 5-7 year period? Consider that the difference in points per game between the NBA and ABA between 1972 and 1976 is less than the difference between the Memphis Grizzlies and the Portland Trailblazers last year.

It’s funny to talk about “no D” in the NBA when we’re talking about the 1976 Lakers. Here’s a comment form the team Kareem was joining, from Sports Illustrated

The current Lakers have not been known to play defense during their relentless pursuit of statistics and salaries … First, Coach Bill Sharman must get his men's minds off their potentially incredible scoring averages. To these ends, when Guard Gail Goodrich held out all through the preseason, the joke was that the Lakers were offering him a no-cut, no-shoot contract. Cazzie Russell, another noted tommy-gunner who must relish the presence of Abdul-Jabbar, reveals priorities when he says, "All the older guys talk about the legs going first. Me? If my right arm goes, I'm through."

(Notice that we hear about Kareem--a Black Muslim--"demanding" a trade...but did anyone else know about Gail Goodrich--white Southern California native--holding out until the first game of the season? Didn't think so.)

I have said this before and I’ll say it again here—and probably a few more times in the voting over the next five years. There was a subtle but insistent racism in NBA public relations and MVP voting from about 1968 to 1975. (Notice that we hear about Kareem--a Black Muslim--"demanding" a trade...but did anyone else know about Gail Goodrich--white Southern California native--holding out until the first game of the season? Didn't think so.) Phrases like “playground basketball” = “black basketball.” When a white player played like that, the league pumped him up like a savior (Pete Maravich). When a black player did it, he got exactly 0 MVP votes as a 26-3.5-4.89 player on a 57 win team (Earl Monroe, 1969). If you were black and outspoken, you were called “flashy” by the mainstream press…and “uppity” by 40 and 50 year old men in the corner barbershops. There are people that still believe that Walt Frazier played like Pete Maravich because he was stylish. Even Frazier choice of clothes worked against him. The league championed Willis Reed (hard working, quiet black man) over Walt, in the same way they pumped Wes Unseld over Monroe. It wasn’t limited basketball. It was Frazier and Ali in the late 60s and early 70s; it was fairly pervasive. Because basketball was a sport dominated by black men, the racism was stronger in that sport.

Kareem did not “demand” a trade. He was in the final year of his deal, and requested a trade. He didn’t leave without giving his old team some never to be taken away accomplishments; he left Milwaukee after five years, having led them to a title (which should have been two). And he didn’t hang his team out to dry by any means either. For Kareem, the Bucks got Elmore Smith, Brian Winters, and two first round draft picks (#2 and #8…equivalent to around #4 and #14 in a 30 team league). I noted the overall effect of the 1976 vs. the 1975 Bucks in another thread this way. The Bucks gained Brian Winters who, as a starter, came into his own. They added Junior Bridgeman, who was a very good player. They had Jim Price for an entire season. And I think the 1975 Bucks would have won at least 5-6 more games had Kareem not missed 16 games. So if you want to say that Kareem = Elmore Smith (a good C, even in the Golden Era of Cs) + Brian Winters + Junior Bridgeman + 41 games of Jim Price + 5 or 6 wins, I’m down with that.

To be more specific, Elmore Smith was 26. He was a miserable passer. But he was also sixth in the league in FG%, eighth in the league in rebounds per game, sixth in the league in defensive rating, and second in the league in blocks. That’s a good C. Brian Winters averaged 18.2 points, 3.2 rebounds and 4.7 assists...a level he stayed at for several more years. Winters was also one of the best distance shooting guards of the pre-3 era. Looking at comparable current players… Winters had a PER of 16.1 and 5.0 win shares; Elmore Smith was at 17.7 and 8.7. So we want to find a young backcourt player and a young C with PERs between 16 and 18 (that add up to about 34), and a combined total of around 14 win shares. Although they’re not quite as good overall, you get something like Joakim Noah (17.9/6.8) and Stephen Curry (16.3/4.6). Let’s say LeBron James had taken the Kareem route, and been traded for Noah, Curry, a #4 pick, and a #14 pick. I don’t think people (and especially Cleveland fans) would be quite as ready to vilify him. So I’m thinking the “Kareem demanded a trade!” argument doesn’t wash at all, given what he’d done before and what he ended getting for them in return. (If the Buckxs had drafted Alvan Adams as a PF instead of Dave Myers, who knows how good the bucks would have been in the late 1970s; early 1980s?)

[Sedale Threatt]

Quite frankly anyone who doesnt have DrJ #1 realy needs to do some soul searching. Theres no bigger fan of KAJ than True LA Fan and he has DRJ #1. I honestly thought this is the one yr that it would be unamious.

Yeah, this is pretty much a no-brainer.

I don't see it as a no-brainer at all. Frankly, other than the fact Erving had flashier/better stats than Walton, it looks fairly similar to last year's debate to me. Otherwise, Kareem might have been even better than he was in '77, with his biggest flaw being that his team sucked.

So yeah, I'm giving fair warning right now that I could be That Guy. I'm going to take a little more time to think on it than I did in the last thread, but if I voted for Kareem over Walton I have no problem voting Kareem over Erving.

Regarding the ABA/NBA thing, I don't think there's any question the NBA was the better league. But from all I've read, I'd come up with a very unscientific, totally subjective guess that it was closer than some would think, especially at the time. Maybe 60/40 in the NBA's favor?

[JordansBulls]

Quite frankly anyone who doesnt have DrJ #1 realy needs to do some soul searching. Theres no bigger fan of KAJ than True LA Fan and he has DRJ #1. I honestly thought this is the one yr that it would be unamious.

Yeah, this is pretty much a no-brainer.

I don't see it as a no-brainer at all. Frankly, other than the fact Erving had flashier/better stats than Walton, it looks fairly similar to last year's debate to me. Otherwise, Kareem might have been even better than he was in '77, with his biggest flaw being that his team sucked.

So yeah, I'm giving fair warning right now that I could be That Guy. I'm going to take a little more time to think on it than I did in the last thread, but if I voted for Kareem over Walton I have no problem voting Kareem over Erving.

Regarding the ABA/NBA thing, I don't think there's any question the NBA was the better league. But from all I've read, I'd come up with a very unscientific, totally subjective guess that it was closer than some would think, especially at the time. Maybe 60/40 in the NBA's favor?

http://www.remembertheaba.com/ABAStatistics/ABANBAExhibitions.html

However, in the later years of the rivalry, the tide began to turn. Buoyed by younger, better talent and (in many cases) the home court advantage, ABA teams began winning most of the games. Over the last three seasons of the rivalry, the ABA steadily pulled ahead: 15-10 (in 1973), 16-7 (in 1974), and 31-17 (in 1975). The ABA won the overall interleague rivalry, 79 games to 76.

So yeah, it is not clear that the NBA was better. In fact it may point to the fact that the ABA was better.

[semi-sentient]

Is that a fair assessment to make when we're talking about exhibition games?

[Sedale Threatt]

I’m thinking the “Kareem demanded a trade!” argument doesn’t wash at all, given what he’d done before and what he ended getting for them in return.

Good post, as well as previous posts explaining that L.A.'s failure to make the playoffs was based more on format than anything else.

Even if it wasn't, I don't see any logic whatsoever in blaming the one guy who was actually out there doing work. Led the league in total points and blocks, as well as PER, total win shares, offensive win shares, defensive win shares and win shares per 48, while averaging 5 assists and 1.5 steals per game.

So it's the same old question: What more could he have done?

To repost some quotes I previously shared (paraphrasing, as I couldn't find them):

Jerry West -- People expected more than he was doing. It was never enough. Those teams in the late 70s would have been lucky to win 20 games without him.

Doug Krikorian -- People forget.

Kareem -- I recall being the scapegoat. I was the best player on the team. I got a lot of things done, so they just used me as the focus for why the Lakers weren't successful. That was very frustrating.

Maurice Lucas -- You can beat his team, but you never beat him.

[Sedale Threatt]

Is that a fair assessment to make when we're talking about exhibition games?

No. But in true JB style, this will be accorded gospel status. I'm sure the ABA teams went all out to win those games, and treated them very seriously. I'm also sure that in some cases the NBA teams did as well. But there was also a tremendous amount of arrogance on the NBA's part. Which wasn't justified, but it was there, so I highly doubt this was 100% competition.

[JordansBulls]

Is that a fair assessment to make when we're talking about exhibition games?

Maybe not, but it is something to prove that the ABA was just as good since we have no other concrete evidence on either end.

[Sedale Threatt]

Moving on, I guess I'm looking for somebody to make a case that Dr. J was better in 76 than Walton in 77.

I think we all agree that Walton had one of the all-time great individual seasons that year, leading to one of the closest votes in the project. Kareem was deemed to have been better there.

But was Dr. J better than that? This seems pretty critical to me, considering Kareem doesn't drop off at all. Indeed, in some ways he might have been better in 76 than he was in 77.

So if he was good enough to beat prime Walton, giving a historically unique combination of scoring/rebounding/playmaking/defense en route to a championship, I'm thinking he's certainly got a good case to beat prime Erving, who dominated on both ends with revolutionary style en route to a championship.

Not an easy choice, mind you, but as I stated previously, I don't see any case whatsoever for a "no-brainer" in the Doctor's favor.

[semi-sentient]

Interesting points. I think the one thing that allowed many (myself included) to put Kareem above Walton was the fact that he dominated him individually over the course of a series. That put to rest any idea that Kareem wasn't playing up to his full abilities, so the only conclusion to be drawn was that he just didn't have the teammates around him to get any further.

In this case, we don't have that luxury because they played in different leagues.

Another question to ponder is how far below both Kareem and Walton he (Dr J) was considered in previous discussions. Suddenly we get to a point where the leagues are different and he's the clear choice for #1? That seems odd to me. I'm not sure if I have a problem with him being #1 this year though because he couldn't have possibly played better or accomplished more whereas Kareem didn't really get to showcase himself in the playoffs.

I do have a serious problem with Kareem being left off of ballots though. There just isn't any argument for any player above him EXCEPT Julius Erving.