Prove to me Derrick Rose is Good.

[LarsV8]

You can put me in the Rose is overated camp. He is certainly a good player, but I think he is fool's gold as far as a franchise guy. He reminds me a ton of Steve Francis, and Stevie was a much better defender. I think he picked up a ton of hype coming from being the number one guy in a very weak draft and sustained it by being high usage and flashy.

Another brilliant contribution from a poster who rarely watches Rose play

Im sorry my opinion is different from yours.

[ahonui06]

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/derrick_rose/career_stats.html

Not the greatest stats from a PG but Rose does show up in the playoffs. He really needs to improve his perimeter shot and try and limit his turnovers in order for Chicago to be successful.

[Legendary 33]

I respect your opinion, but you provide no basis for it, and if you watched Rose play more your opinion of him would be different (I laughed when you compared him to Francis)

[LarsV8]

I respect your opinion, but you provide no basis for it, and if you watched Rose play more your opinion of him would be different (I laughed when you compared him to Francis)

Your assumption that I dont watch Rose play is way off base.

Maybe you should take a step back and look at the big picture rather than be so defensive.

[BR0D1E86]

If you’re comparing him to Steve Francis with a brain, I could see that. That player would have been awesome.

His attitude really separates him from the Marburys and Franciseseses moreso than his skillset.

[Legendary 33]

Your assumption that I dont watch Rose play is way off base.

Maybe you should take a step back and look at the big picture rather than be so defensive.

I shouldn't assume that you don't watch him play a lot, but It's literally mind-boggling to me that anybody that does watch him a lot would think he isn't franchise-player caliber. Agree to disagree then.

[LarsV8]

Your assumption that I dont watch Rose play is way off base.

Maybe you should take a step back and look at the big picture rather than be so defensive.

I shouldn't assume that you don't watch him play a lot, but It's literally mind-boggling to me that anybody that does watch him a lot would think he isn't franchise-player caliber. Agree to disagree then.

He can be your franchise player.

I just don't think any team can realistically win in this league with Rose as thier best player.

[MAQ]

Your assumption that I dont watch Rose play is way off base.

Maybe you should take a step back and look at the big picture rather than be so defensive.

I shouldn't assume that you don't watch him play a lot, but It's literally mind-boggling to me that anybody that does watch him a lot would think he isn't franchise-player caliber. Agree to disagree then.

As someone who does watch him a lot, I don't think Derrick has proven to be a franchise player just yet. If he continues to improve, then it's certainly possible. But saying that from what he has shown so far is a bit of a stretch.

[Rerisen]

I just don't think any team can realistically win in this league with Rose as thier best player.

Last year Derrick Rose, no. But we expect him to keep getting better. And why wouldn't he at 21 years old and steady progression almost on a monthly basis to this point.

Whether he can get good enough to be one of those guys (best player on championship team) remains to be seen. But its not like Bulls fans are predicting a title this year.

[Concept Coop]

Your assumption that I dont watch Rose play is way off base.

Maybe you should take a step back and look at the big picture rather than be so defensive.

I shouldn't assume that you don't watch him play a lot, but It's literally mind-boggling to me that anybody that does watch him a lot would think he isn't franchise-player caliber. Agree to disagree then.

He can be your franchise player.

I just don't think any team can realistically win in this league with Rose as thier best player.

I am a big Rose/Bulls fan and can't say that you're wrong, on that account. There are very few players EVER capable of being the best player on a championship team. If you exclude the Pistons, and the recent Celtics (to a lesser degree), look who meets that criteria over the last 25 or so years:

Jordan
Kobe
Shaq
Wade (with major help from Shaq)
Duncan
Hakeem
Bird
Magic

If that is your criteria for "franchise player" then you can scratch off the Karl Malones, Reggie Millers, Gary Paytons, Clydes, Niques and on and on and on. Nobody is saying that Derek Rose is anyone on that list above. But he is a franchise player, in that he is the best player on a good, contending team and will be for years and years. Again, if he is not, and can't be a franchise player, then only about 5 guys in the NBA today ever will be. (Not counting Duncan and Shaq, who were at one point).

Having said that, I think he is perfectly capable of being the best player on a team built like the Pistons (both eras) and later Celtics. That puts him at franchise level in my book.

[Optms]

Sometimes hate is a greatest evaluator for how good a player really is. And I say that looking at the number of pages on this thread and the title of which its under.

[LarsV8]

^disagree, just because the Paytons/Malones/Drexlers, etc didnt get it done, doesnt mean I didnt think they were capable.

I think a Rose/Boozer team is perrenial 48-52 wins and 2nd round tops. I wouldnt label them as contenders.

[Rerisen]

I think a Rose/Boozer team is perrenial 48-52 wins and 2nd round tops. I wouldnt label them as contenders.

They are longshot contenders just the same as any other team in the league expected to finish between 3rd and 6th in their conference.

Anyhow, that comment is fine, but not really what this thread is about. It's not about disproving Rose is a top 5 player (which no one is claiming).

The thread title seems to assert he isn't even a *good player*. For people to respond to that with incredulity and to say, he's a good player - duh, doesn't make him overrated.

[LarsV8]

I dont think the original posters intent was to suggest he was not a good player as the title suggests.

I believe his purpose was to stir discussion about the perception of Rose vs the actual caliber of player.

[Rerisen]

I dont think the original posters intent was to suggest he was not a good player as the title suggests.

I don't know what it's saying really, other than to overly rely on and prop up a single stat that is notoriously unreliable in short sample sizes.

As far as your comment about overrated though, I find that a lot of the time people that say this are revolting against what amounts to a fringe opinion.

I'm sure somewhere you could find someone that said Rose is going to be a top 5 player this year, or that he's as good or even will be as good as players like Deron or Paul this year. But that is a very fringe opinion even among Bulls fans.

I mean the other day I read someone say O.J. Mayo is the next Kobe Bryant. Personally think that is a opinion fit for the funny farm but it doesn't make me go around saying O.J. Mayo is overrated.

As far as Rose, I don't see how its misguided to be hyped about a guy who finished the year putting up 23/4/6.5 on very good efficiency and a PER of 20+, at 21 years of age.

I do think there is something of a disconnect between people that followed him the whole year and see how he improved, vs those that just look at his baseline stats for the whole year, which include his injury riddled, no pre-season play, start.

[Don Draper]

Rose most certainly was overhyped last season but now the Bulls have talent around him this season will be the best gauge of how good he actually is.

For the record, I don't see him a #1 option.

[Rerisen]

For the record, I don't see him a #1 option.

Which is hardly a big slight. If you take #1 option to mean best player on a championship team.

In the last 20 years, all but 1 title team has included a top 3 player in the league. Top 5 at worst depending on where you want to rank 08 KG.

So yeah, unless you have a top 5 player in the game (and probably top 3) there aren't too many legitimate number 1 options in the league. And unless Rose becomes one of those top 5 players, which is probably unlikely, he won't be such a number 1 option.

Is Paul one? Deron? I don't think they've done anything to prove they are.

[Concept Coop]

^disagree, just because the Paytons/Malones/Drexlers, etc didnt get it done, doesnt mean I didnt think they were capable.

I think a Rose/Boozer team is perrenial 48-52 wins and 2nd round tops. I wouldnt label them as contenders.

The Bulls were on pace for more than 48 wins last year, before Boozer and co.

Well if you think Payton could, lets compare Payton to Rose. Lets compare stats at 21...wait. GP wasn't in the NBA. Lets use 2nd season then, Rose had MUCH better stats. I know that doesn't take defense into account, but Rose was a better basketball player than Payton was in their 2nd seasons.

The kid is 21 years old. Lets see what he can do and admire what he has already done. Why say what he can or can't do already?

[LarsV8]

The Bulls were on pace for more than 48 wins last year, before Boozer and co.

Well if you think Payton could, lets compare Payton to Rose. Lets compare stats at 21...wait. GP wasn't in the NBA. Lets use 2nd season then, Rose had MUCH better stats. I know that doesn't take defense into account, but Rose was a better basketball player than Payton was in their 2nd seasons.

The kid is 21 years old. Lets see what he can do and admire what he has already done. Why say what he can or can't do already?

Payton is in another league than Rose, come on man. You are talking about one of the greatest 2 way players of all time.

[Concept Coop]

The Bulls were on pace for more than 48 wins last year, before Boozer and co.

Well if you think Payton could, lets compare Payton to Rose. Lets compare stats at 21...wait. GP wasn't in the NBA. Lets use 2nd season then, Rose had MUCH better stats. I know that doesn't take defense into account, but Rose was a better basketball player than Payton was in their 2nd seasons.

The kid is 21 years old. Lets see what he can do and admire what he has already done. Why say what he can or can't do already?

Payton is in another league than Rose, come on man. You are talking about one of the greatest 2 way players of all time.

You don't get it. Rose is better than Payton was at 21, and better than Payton was in his 2nd year. Why assume that Rose can't reach a Payton level? At 21 and his 2nd year in the NBA, Payton wasn't on Payton's level either.