Kobe vs Jordan

[semi-sentient]

Does any of that matter? Did Jordan or Kobe choose what era to play in and which wings to go up against? It's pretty clear from having seen both guys play which one is better, and that's pretty much all that matters. If we get into "ifs" then we can say pretty much anything.

If I were 5 inches taller I'd be Steve Nash x2. Truth. See? The "if" game sucks.

[Pablo Escobar]

Kobe is Kobe and Jordan is Jordan the minute we stop comparing the more you appreciate what Kobe has done

[Sedale Threatt]

I wana see Jordan deal with the athletic wing freaks we have in the league.

Like who? Kobe's primary defenders over the final three rounds of the playoffs were the undrafted Wes Matthews, 37-year-old Grant Hill and 35-year-old Ray Allen. Thabo Sefalosha is obviously a great defender. But do you think "athletic freak" when you think of him? Not me.

If we're talking strictly athletic ability -- which is only part of being a great defender, and definitely not a requirement -- you're not going to find anybody better than Clyde Drexler. Excellent size, unreal hops. And Jordan destroyed him to the tune of 35 points a game in the 92 Finals. That was actually an anticipated matchup, and Jordan absolutely demoralized him.

Kobe has faced, and beaten, some tremendous defenders over the years. I will put Bruce Bowen and Tayshaun Prince up against just about any individual defender I've ever seen, especially Bruce. But it's the same thing -- get beyond Prince's length, and I don't think "athletic freak" when I think of either of them.

Take Tayshaun out of the mix, and look at some of the guys Kobe has seen in the Finals -- Reggie Miller, Jalen Rose, Aaron McKie, Eric Snow, Raja Bell, Kerry Kittles, Ray Allen, Paul Pierce. Then you have: Doug Christie was overrated. Penny Hardaway was calcified, Jason Kidd good but undersized. Scottie Pippen was still very, very good but past his prime. Antonio Daniels in 2001 was about as weak as they come. Ruben Patterson was respectable. Same for Trenton Hassell. And on and on.

Some hard working and underrated defenders sprinkled in there, but hardly an overpowering group from an athletic standpoint. Hell, half the guys I think of when I think "athletic freak" -- Rudy Gay, Andre Iguodala -- wouldn't play defense if you doubled their salary.

[Unt0uchabl3]

Not until the torch has been officially been passed. They still have to earn it.

True, but in the long term of things the heat are ready to contend every year for sometime. As of now i don't think there's any teams you can say that about besides the lakers ( if kobe stay healty and playing at the same level). I like kobe as a player but there's going to be a time when he slows down, the question is when.

[Sedale Threatt]

I agree. They're going to be monsters. But until they win, I concede nothing.

[Unt0uchabl3]

I agree. They're going to be monsters. But until they win, I concede nothing.

Of course, your the champs why would you! You have to beat the best to be the best.

[crazy_me_87]

Kobe has not passed Jordan, and he never will.

Clear, concise and too the point.

Frankly, the fact that Kobe's even comparable, especially from the standpoint of competitive drive and work ethic, is a pretty amazing achievement. I don't know why that isn't enough.

Being the second-best SG in history behind someone of Jordan's caliber doesn't exactly suck.

this!!

i mean that kobe is even worthy of a real debate about that is absolutly amaziing

were talking MJ here i'm not a fan of all the GOAT stuff and that NEVER anybody will surpass him but right now were still talking of jordan

now that bron has teamed up with his friends and durant may be to young to be mvp in the eyes of many theres a good chance kobe will get another mvp or two before the end and maybe one title more

i mean beening an wothy heir of MJ isn't exactly a bad thing isn't it?

[K0beisGOAT]

I agree. They're going to be monsters. But until they win, I concede nothing.

u only mention players he faced in the playoffs. how about the fact that there guys in league like lebron,wade,durant,mello that are all in the mvp race? Alot of people bring up jordans 5 mvps to kobes 1. In the 80s when Magic and Larry ran the NBA how many MVPs did Jordan win? Answer 1

Kome easy matchups in the playoffs of Late but all the guys u name are more atheltic then ehlo and 60% of sgs back then

[Sedale Threatt]

A. That post is referring to today's Heat, not the discussion at hand.

B. If you're honestly offering Carmelo Anthony up as an example of today's superior game, I'm assuming you couldn't even name 60% of the SGs "back then."

A fine player, but there is absolutely nothing special about him compared to the likes of Nique Wilkins, Clyde Drexler, Bernard King, Alex English or any other high-scoring wing from the 80s/90s you want to mention.

LeBron is obviously an all-time freak of nature, and I'd rate Wade as one of the five best SGs in history. Durant has a chance to be spectacular but has done nothing of consequence. Who else do you have?

C. The MVPs.

Jordan won his first in 88, beating out Larry Bird (second), Magic Johnson (third), Charles Barkley (fourth), Drexler (fifth), Wilkins (sixth), Hakeem Olajuwon (seventh) and Karl Malone (eighth). You couldn't ask for a deeper field than that. Five of the Top 20 of all time, six of the Top 50 and another (Nique) who was robbed of a rightful spot.

In 91 he beat Magic, David Robinson, Barkley, Malone and Drexler.

In 92 he beat Drexler, Robinson, Malone and Patrick Ewing.

In 93 he beat Robinson, Penny Hardaway, Hakeem, Scottie Pippen, Gary Payton and Malone.

In 98 he beat Malone, Payton, Shaquille O'Neal and Tim Duncan.

All told, that's about 10 members of the Top 50 he beat out, as well as Wilkins, who should have made it, and two others (Duncan and Payton) who would have if they had the longevity. There is more than enough greatness on those lists to render false any argument that the competition is tougher today.

EDIT -- And here's more.

He finished second in 87, ahead of Bird, Kevin McHale, Wilkins, Barkley, Olajuwon and Isiah Thomas.

He finished second in 89, ahead of Malone, Ewing, Olajuwon, Barkley and John Stockton.

Didn't play in 93 or 94, didn't play enough in 95.

He finished second in 97, ahead of Grant Hill, Hardaway, Glen Rice (meh), Payton, Olajuwon and Ewing.

Please tell me that competition doesn't measure up.

[KB24Gold]

If only it was possible to rewind back and watch how MJ played and then watch Kobe play everyone would clearly see who is better. He's the closest to MJ but that's about it.

[K0beisGOAT]

A. That post is referring to today's Heat, not the discussion at hand.

B. If you're honestly offering Carmelo Anthony up as an example of today's superior game, I'm assuming you couldn't even name 60% of the SGs "back then."

A fine player, but there is absolutely nothing special about him compared to the likes of Nique Wilkins, Clyde Drexler, Bernard King, Alex English or any other high-scoring wing from the 80s/90s you want to mention.

LeBron is obviously an all-time freak of nature, and I'd rate Wade as one of the five best SGs in history. Durant has a chance to be spectacular but has done nothing of consequence. Who else do you have?

C. The MVPs.

Jordan won his first in 88, beating out Larry Bird (second), Magic Johnson (third), Charles Barkley (fourth), Drexler (fifth), Wilkins (sixth), Hakeem Olajuwon (seventh) and Karl Malone (eighth). You couldn't ask for a deeper field than that.

In 91 he beat Magic, David Robinson, Barkley, Malone and Drexler.

In 92 he beat Drexler, Robinson, Malone and Patrick Ewing.

In 93 he beat Robinson, Penny Hardaway, Hakeem, Scottie Pippen, Gary Payton and Malone.

In 98 he beat Malone, Payton, Shaquille O'Neal and Tim Duncan.

All told, that's about 10 members of the Top 50 he beat out, as well as Wilkins, who should have made it, and two others (Duncan and Payton) who would have if they had the longevity. There is more than enough greatness on those lists to render false any argument that the competition is tougher today.

EDIT -- And here's more.

He finished second in 87, ahead of Bird, Kevin McHale, Wilkins, Barkley, Olajuwon and Isiah Thomas.

He finished second in 89, ahead of Malone, Ewing, Olajuwon, Barkley and John Stockton.

Didn't play in 93 or 94, didn't play enough in 95.

He finished second in 97, ahead of Grant Hill, Hardaway, Glen Rice (meh), Payton, Olajuwon and Ewing.

Like i said 1 mvp in the 80s how many o fthos eplayers avg 29,8,7 like lebron or 27 7 7 like wade. only guy on ur list who had abaility like todays players is penny hardaway and during his years when he was healthy he had shaq, and it is impossible to get mvp with shaq on ur team. As a laker fan u should know that.
Carmelo is better then B king and Nique. Now on to Sgs of Jordan Era


89-90 there were 5 Sgs in the league based on scoreing! Jordan,Drexler,tony cambell,jeff malone,mitch ritchmond or do u want to talk about another year. Outsid eof drexler and Jordan those guys were avg atheletes at best. good try

[Pablo Escobar]

A. That post is referring to today's Heat, not the discussion at hand.

B. If you're honestly offering Carmelo Anthony up as an example of today's superior game, I'm assuming you couldn't even name 60% of the SGs "back then."

A fine player, but there is absolutely nothing special about him compared to the likes of Nique Wilkins, Clyde Drexler, Bernard King, Alex English or any other high-scoring wing from the 80s/90s you want to mention.

LeBron is obviously an all-time freak of nature, and I'd rate Wade as one of the five best SGs in history. Durant has a chance to be spectacular but has done nothing of consequence. Who else do you have?

C. The MVPs.

Jordan won his first in 88, beating out Larry Bird (second), Magic Johnson (third), Charles Barkley (fourth), Drexler (fifth), Wilkins (sixth), Hakeem Olajuwon (seventh) and Karl Malone (eighth). You couldn't ask for a deeper field than that.

In 91 he beat Magic, David Robinson, Barkley, Malone and Drexler.

In 92 he beat Drexler, Robinson, Malone and Patrick Ewing.

In 93 he beat Robinson, Penny Hardaway, Hakeem, Scottie Pippen, Gary Payton and Malone.

In 98 he beat Malone, Payton, Shaquille O'Neal and Tim Duncan.

All told, that's about 10 members of the Top 50 he beat out, as well as Wilkins, who should have made it, and two others (Duncan and Payton) who would have if they had the longevity. There is more than enough greatness on those lists to render false any argument that the competition is tougher today.

EDIT -- And here's more.

He finished second in 87, ahead of Bird, Kevin McHale, Wilkins, Barkley, Olajuwon and Isiah Thomas.

He finished second in 89, ahead of Malone, Ewing, Olajuwon, Barkley and John Stockton.

Didn't play in 93 or 94, didn't play enough in 95.

He finished second in 97, ahead of Grant Hill, Hardaway, Glen Rice (meh), Payton, Olajuwon and Ewing.

Like i said 1 mvp in the 80s how many o fthos eplayers avg 29,8,7 like lebron or 27 7 7 like wade. only guy on ur list who had abaility like todays players is penny hardaway and during his years when he was healthy he had shaq, and it is impossible to get mvp with shaq on ur team. As a laker fan u should know that.
Carmelo is better then B king and Nique. Now on to Sgs of Jordan Era


89-90 there were 5 Sgs in the league based on scoreing! Jordan,Drexler,tony cambell,jeff malone,mitch ritchmond or do u want to talk about another year. Outsid eof drexler and Jordan those guys were avg atheletes at best. good try

[semi-sentient]

Smokin' dat weed, feelin' fine
Got me a 40 and a fat-ass dime

[Sedale Threatt]

Like i said 1 mvp in the 80s how many o fthos eplayers avg 29,8,7 like lebron or 27 7 7 like wade.

That's two players. Two.

Who else would you put out there? I keep saying you talk about "today's players" as if there's some wealth of talent. Here's a list of the starting SGs in the league today, with necessary flexibility for 'tweeners or teams that didn't have a clear-cut starter:

Atlanta -- Joe Johnson
Boston -- Ray Allen
Charlotte -- Steven Jackson
Chicago -- ??? (Kirk Hinrich and John Salmons are both gone)
Cleveland -- Anthony Parker
Dallas -- Caron Butler
Denver -- Arron Afflalo
Detroit -- Rip Hamilton/Ben Gordon
Golden State -- Rip Hamilton
Houston -- Shane Battier
Indiana -- Brandon Rush
Clippers -- Eric Gordon
Memphis -- O.J. Mayo
Miami -- Wade
New Jersey -- Courtney Lee
New Orleans -- Mo Peterson
New York -- Wilson Chandler
OKC -- Thabo Sefalosha
Orlando -- Vince Carter
Philly -- Andre Iguodala
Phoenix -- Grant Hill
Portland -- Brandon Royo
Sacramento -- Tyreke Evans
San Antonio -- George Hill/Manu Ginobili
Toronto -- DeMarr Derozan

There. I know there's lots of blurring with SFs, but I've already put way more effort into this than you have so I'm going to stop there.

Some really, really nice players, including an all-time great in Dwyane Wade, as well as outstanding defenders in Battier and Seflosha. But I'm not seeing a single, solitary one that Jordan wouldn't outplay, if not dominate.

I'm also not seeing a wealth of "athletic freaks." Indeed, I'm seeing more older/non-athletic types -- Johnson, Allen, Hamilton, Peterson, Carter and Hill -- than I am those.

So who are these guys, and for whom do they play?

only guy on ur list who had abaility like todays players is penny hardaway and during his years when he was healthy he had shaq, and it is impossible to get mvp with shaq on ur team. As a laker fan u should know that.

That's not really why I listed the MVP votes. You questioned the overall competition Jordan faced, not just at his position but in terms of contemporaries, so I provided proof that his era was loaded with great players. Like I said, please find a list of candidates in the last 10 years or so that compares to what Jordan beat in 88.

Carmelo is better then B king and Nique.

You're crazy. As soon as Melo matches what Dominique did in his prime -- the longevity, multiple 30-point seasons -- then we can talk. Especially from an athletic standpoint. Melo doesn't even compare there. And King, before the injuries, was just as good. Melo's a great player. But in a historical context, he doesn't do anything to deserve the type of credit you're trying to give him.

Now on to Sgs of Jordan Era

See above. Today's game is any better?

[Sedale Threatt]

It just dawned on me. I think I am completely wasting my time trying to have an honest debate with somebody whose screen name is "kobeisgoat".

[snaquille oatmeal]

this is not going to end well, just like every K v J thread.