Retro POY '74-75 (Voting Complete)

[Doctor MJ]

In this thread we'll discuss and vote on the top 5 best player seasons of '74-75.

Trying something new now. Schedule will be Mon-Fri, and Thu-Mon. Typically this will be morning to morning.

Some things to start us off:

NBA
Season Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... _1975.html
Playoff Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... _1975.html
Award Voting http://www.basketball-reference.com/awa ... _1975.html
Final Box Score http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1975.htm

ABA
Season Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... _1975.html
Playoff Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... _1975.html

Topics
Barry's Warriors win the NBA title
Kareem's Bucks fall off a cliff
Erving's Nets disappear in the playoffs
Gilmore's Colonels finally win the ABA title

[JordansBulls]

1. Rick Barry - Finals MVP, 4th in MVP voting, 4th in PER, 3rd in Win Shares, 1st in Playoff Win Shares, 2nd in Playoff PER, 1st Team All NBA

2. Bob Mcadoo - MVP winner, 1st in Win Shares, 1st in Win Shares PER 48 Minutes, 1st in Playoff PER, 2nd in Season PER, 1st Team All NBA

3. Artis Gilmore - ABA Title, 2nd in Win Shares, 2nd in Win Shares PER 48 Minutes, 3rd in PER on the season. 1st in playoff Win Shares, 3rd in in Playoff Win Shares PER 48 Minutes, 5th in playoff PER.

4. Dave Cowens - 2nd in MVP Voting, 2nd Team All NBA and 2nd Team Defense

5. Julius Erving - 1st in Win Shares and Win Shares PER 48 Minutes in the ABA, 1st in PER


This year is justified for Kareem to not make the list IMO. He missed 17 games and also they went from the best record in the league the year before to not making the playoffs.

[fatal9]

^ Bucks 3-14 without Kareem (on pace to be the worst team in the league) and 35-30 with him. Just an FYI. If that doesn't show his worth to his teams, I don't know what will. On pace for 15-18 wins without him and 44-47 with him. Guy was worth nearly 30 wins to his club and the only thing separating them from being the worst team in the league to a playoff team.

[JordansBulls]

Bucks actually had another allstar on that team that year in Bob Dandridge.

The guy who had not much help was Rick Barry and look at what he did.

[Sedale Threatt]

And three of their top four scorers, including Kareem, combined to miss a total of 130 games, compared to five for Golden State. Also, Oscar retired. Do you ever look at things with a discerning eye?

[fatal9]

1. Barry
2. McAdoo
3. Kareem
4. Elvin Hayes
5. Dr. J

will edit in more later.

[semi-sentient]

This is going to be a tough year for Kareem to make the cut. In this case, missing 17 games is going to hurt his case because it kept the Bucks from reaching the playoffs. I know, his teammates suck and also missed games, but I'm looking at all these other guys that played full seasons and played great in the post-season, and it's really hard to find a spot for him. Gilmore and Erving both played the full 84 games over in the ABA, and they put up some impressive numbers while leading their respective teams to 58 wins. Then you have guys like Barry, McAdoo, and Hayes who also played full seasons and had solid playoff runs. Barry, McAdoo, and Hayes also finished higher in MVP voting while being on the All-NBA team (Kareem didn't make the cut, but he was All-Defense 1st team).

Final Rankings:

1) Rick Barry
2) Artis Gilmore
3) Bob McAdoo
4) Elvin Hayes
5) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

HM: Julius Erving

This is a really, really tough year I think. I hate leaving Kareem off, but there's a lot of really good players this year that didn't miss any time. Well see what kind of arguments come out though. I'd be interested in hearing a bit more about how these guys truly impacted their teams outside of just records, statistics, and award voting.

Edit: 5th place is going to be between Dr J and Kareem. The knock on Kareem is the amount of games missed. The knock on Dr J is his poor efficiency in the post-season.

Edit: I decided on Kareem at the 5 spot. I don't feel right leaving him off the list, and thinking back to the previous year the only reason I put Dr J ahead of Kareem is because he couldn't possibly have accomplished any more. This year, he wasn't all that hot in the playoffs so there's no big edge for giving him the nod over Kareem.

[Mean_Streets]

1. Rick Barry - By the end of the season I think most would agree Barry was the best player in the world. 31/6/6 & led the NBA in steals. NBA Champion.

2. Bob McAdoo - McAdoo was at his absolute peak this year. Averaged 35/14 during the regular season & won NBA MVP.

3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - A somewhat off year for Kareem. Missed 17 games during the season & didn't even make All-NBA Team. But still put up dominant numbers.

4. Artis Gilmore - Best player in the ABA this year. 24/16 on 58FG% & 3 BPG. ABA champion.

5. Julius Erving - ABA MVP

[semi-sentient]

OK, am I missing something when it comes to Artis Gilmore? I'm surprised that he's been left off of 2 ballots already.

Look at his numbers:

Code: Select all

     GP   MIN   PTS   TS%   REB   AST   STL   BLK   TOV
========================================================
RS:  84   41.6  23.6  .615  16.2  2.5   0.8   3.1   4.1
PS:  15   45.3  24.1  .602  17.6  2.5   1.0   2.1   3.9

Like Erving the year before, he won the championship, was awarded the Playoffs MVP, and made the All-NBA/All-Defensive 1st teams. His team was tied for 2nd best record in the ABA, and Colonels had the leagues best defense. The only way I can see him being left off is if we're calling the ABA overrated, in which case I'll gladly change my vote in the 75-76 thread to put Kareem #1 in place of Dr J.

[Mean_Streets]

OK, am I missing something when it comes to Artis Gilmore? I'm surprised that he's been left off of 2 ballots already.

Look at his numbers:

Code: Select all

     GP   MIN   PTS   TS%   REB   AST   STL   BLK   TOV
========================================================
RS:  84   41.6  23.6  .615  16.2  2.5   0.8   3.1   4.1
PS:  15   45.3  24.1  .602  17.6  2.5   1.0   2.1   3.9

Like Erving the year before, he won the championship, was awarded the Playoffs MVP, and made the All-NBA/All-Defensive 1st teams. His team was tied for 2nd best record in the ABA, and Colonels had the leagues best defense. The only way I can see him being left off is if we're calling the ABA overrated, in which case I'll gladly change my vote in the 75-76 thread to put Kareem #1 in place of Dr J.

Yea, I don't get it either. I do think ABA's numbers are inflated (which is why I put Kareem #1 in '76), but I don't get how so many posters can put Dr. J #1 in '76 then in '75 they don't put the ABA's best player on their list. It's hypocritical.

[Dr Positivity]

This year is intense. Barry, Erving, McAdoo, Gilmore all have #1 worthy years, and that's not even mentioning Kareem, Hayes, and Cowens

[Mean_Streets]

Fun Fact: MJ, Kareem, & R. Barry are the only players in NBA history to averaged +30 PPG during the regular season & become NBA champions the same year.

[penbeast0]

We are just finishing a game based on this season on the T&T Games Board so I am pretty fresh on this one.

The best team by record in either league was Denver but like in 1976, Larry Brown’s motion offense and jump and switch defense produced results above the team’s talent level (way above this year – one of the great coaching jobs ever). The real best team in the ABA was Kentucky who rebuilt their team around Gilmore and won the title. Denver had a better record and NY had the same one (both with slightly better SRS) but Kentucky was overtly built to beat NY and win the title and they did so.

In the NBA, I’m not as thrilled with the eventual champion Golden State, where Rick Barry really was carrying the team (unlike 76 where Phil Smith and Jamaal Wilkes had years just as good). Washington and Boston were both better teams with Washington having both the better SRS and winning their playoff matchup.

Kentucky – As I said, Kentucky really built around Gilmore, deemphasizing the shooting of Dan Issel and Louis Dampier to get the ball into the post more and the A-Train responded well, particularly in the postseason where he was playoff MVP (24/16/3 with 3 blocks on 58% shooting).

Washington – Elvin Hayes was again Washington’s MVP (25/12/3 +2bl) but his efficiency wasn’t as good this season (44%) and Washington had great depth with Unseld, Chenier, and Kevin Porter having good seasons plus Mike Riordan, Truck Robinson, Nick Weatherspoon, and former ABA star Jimmy Jones.

Boston – Boston was 1B to Washington’s 1A with their centerpiece being Dave Cowens who not only outscored Havlicek and White, but had nearly as many assists plus 15 reb/game despite playing next to Paul Silas (12.5reb).

New York – Julius Erving was co-ABA MVP with another incredible season (28/11/6 on 50% shooting). And while he had solid players around him (Kenon, Paultz, Brian Taylor), he was the undisputed centerpiece.

Denver – The best record in the ABA – a year BEFORE getting David Thompson and Dan Issel. They did it with basically Bobby Jones (playing real minutes) and Ralph Simpson and Mack Calvin. Offensively all three were keys offensively but Jones was the heart and soul of the defense without question.

Golden State – Rick Barry scored at well and was a great playmaker (32/6/6 on 46%) plus he had a great playoff run to take the title. And he really didn’t have much help, though it didn’t endear him to me to have him say on the radio that his teammates weren’t very good (Wilkes was good, Cliff Ray still terrific defensively, a deep guard rotation played well – but he was right that they weren’t stars).

Buffalo was the next best team, with Bob McAdoo also having a monster individual season (35/14/2 on 51%) to lead them to a nearly .600 record.

San Antonio in the ABA had George Gervin and James Silas leading the way again. George still wasn’t the force he became later in the NBA but scored 23/game while Silas added 19 @51% as the PG.

Chicago won 47 with a powerful defense and a relatively weak offense led by All-D Bob Love, Jerry Sloan, Norm Van Lier, and Nate Thurmond plus Chet Walker.

KC and Seattle were the other teams above .500 led by big statistical seasons from Tiny Archibald (27/3/7) and Spencer Haywood (22/9/2).

Other big seasons but on losing teams were co-ABA MVP George McGinnis (30/6/5) and led the Pacers over Denver to the ABA Finals, Kareem (30/14/4), Bob Lanier (24/12/5), Walt Frazier (23/6/6), and Marvin “Bad News” Barnes (24/16/3 – and led STL to an upset of the Nets but constant disruption). With all the great seasons by stars of winning teams, the only one I would consider a top 5 player would be McGinnis whose playoff run adds to his numbers to push him up the list.

My top 5:

1. Artis Gilmore -- playoff MVP and most feared defensive force in basketball
2. Rick Barry – Golden State had no business anywhere near the title
3. Julius Erving – the Doctor was still the face of the ABA
4. Bob McAdoo – great numbers plus a near .600 win percentage
5. Bobby Jones – Denver also had no where near the talent to have the best winning record in basketball and Jones is Mr. Intangibles

HM – George McGinnis, Dave Cowens – both very deserving and I feel bad about leaving them off. Elvin just wasn’t as good this year as 78 and 79 despite this possibly being the best Bullets team ever.

Kareem in the early 80s came out of his shell to add team play to his numbers; but the period between the shootings of the Hanabi Muslims in his Washington house (73 I think) and Magic’s arrival was full of great individual performances and team’s that underperformed their talent. It’s the main story of the 70s other than the ABA.

[penbeast0]

OK, am I missing something when it comes to Artis Gilmore? I'm surprised that he's been left off of 2 ballots already.

Look at his numbers:

Code: Select all

     GP   MIN   PTS   TS%   REB   AST   STL   BLK   TOV
========================================================
RS:  84   41.6  23.6  .615  16.2  2.5   0.8   3.1   4.1
PS:  15   45.3  24.1  .602  17.6  2.5   1.0   2.1   3.9

Like Erving the year before, he won the championship, was awarded the Playoffs MVP, and made the All-NBA/All-Defensive 1st teams. His team was tied for 2nd best record in the ABA, and Colonels had the leagues best defense. The only way I can see him being left off is if we're calling the ABA overrated, in which case I'll gladly change my vote in the 75-76 thread to put Kareem #1 in place of Dr J.

Artis is also EASILY the greatest player never to make the HOF. It's like people leaving Dwight Howard off their top 5 NBA player lists (which several have done). It's like Wilt once said, "Nobody loves Goliath" (though Kareem and Yao don't seem to get tagged with the Goliath thing -- maybe because they are highly skilled players rather than players who rely on their physical dominance)

[Sedale Threatt]

I generally don't get the fuss about Artis -- mainly based on his ranking in the Real GM all-time list, which was ridiculously high IMO -- but it's definitely a crime he's not in the HOF. But then, basketball's HOF is a complete joke. Why worry about honoring players when you can get active college coaches and guys who won eight Bulgarian women's league titles in the 50s?

[TrueLAfan]

I’m traveling now, but here are my initial thoughts.

1. Bob McAdoo. Doo did do this year. 35 and 14. He even had a couple of blocks. Not a passer…but who was asking him to pass? And he was better in the postseason; he gave the Bullets all they could handle.
2. Rick Barry. The Warriors were better than they get credit for (hell, they won 59 games the next season). They caught a break when Kareem missed games and the Bucks lost their starting backcourt, and the Lakers were suffering from post-West/Wilt hangover. Doesn’t discount what he did, though. He led the team to a title after having a terrific RS.
3. George McGinnis. Ok…30 points and 14 rebounds. And six assists. With 35% from three. Upped that in the postaseason, losing out to Kentucky in the ABA Finals. Had 40 points 23 rebounds, 8 assists, and 3 steals in Game 7 of the Conference Finals, and led a Cinderalla Team to the Finals.
4. Artis Glimore. Voted Playoff MVP, so count it as a Finals MVP. Just a omnster in that series. Wasn’t bad in the regular season either—23.6 points, 16.2 rebounds, 3.1 blocks.
5. So what is better/worse…getting upset in the first round, but playing all 82 games and taking your (decent) team to a 58 win year, or—as fatal9 notes—missing 17 games for a team that lost 60% of its starters from the year before and had people like Cornell Warner, George Thompson, Kevin Restani, and Gary Brokaw as starters or major bench players…and winning close to 55% of your games with them? Doctor J or Kareem?

Basically, I’m pretty sure about 1 and 2, but not the order; same with 3 and 4.

Others:

Dave Cowens. Nope. Loaded team, missed games. Not as good as Kareem when he was played; didn’t play more than Kareem. Shot under 42% on the postseason.
Elvin Hayes. Played huge minutes…but even more loaded team (the Bullets had three players in the top 10 of MVP voting) and never was a go-to guy in the postseason; averaged 18 and 9 on 41% shooting in the final 3 games of the Finals. Better numbers than on-court play, IMO. I've still got him behind Kareem and Doc.

[pancakes3]

Mcadoo - 35 ppg is a feat no matter when it was or who it was done by.

Barry - hard to argue against the best player on the best team, unless silly stats stand in the way as in bob's case.

Gilmore - best player on the best team, in the OTHER league. maybe because barry did it in more impressive fashion gives him the edge in my book.

Elvin Hayes - i'll throw some hometown love E's way but really between him, kareem, dr. j, mcginnis, and cowens, it's really tough to say.

Dr. J just because in the grand scheme of things, i feel like he's going to get underrepresented in these rankings compared to Kareem, etc. Dr. J was as dynamic a wing as it gets short of MJ and yet he'll finish lower than bird. maybe this 5th place vote will play a small part in rectifying the situation.

[shawngoat23]

I thought JB was crazy for suggesting that Kareem wasn't top 5 this year, but looking at the competition, I could see a case for including a top 5 that didn't include Kareem (although he'll probably make my list).

This is going to be an interesting year. As wide open a field as ever.

[Sedale Threatt]

Only reason I'll even consider leaving him off is because of injuries. And because I haven't been as hung up on that in past years, I doubt I will. But yes, there are some great candidates.

[Rick45]

To Vote in 1974 you had to at least be a teenager 13+ . Is there any point in going back this far everyone is looking at stats, and titles now.