EG post Abe era started Nov 24, 2009 - Eval EG from then

[closg00]

^^^^^
Gotta give JoJo credit, he's out-Rico'd Rico. Your shifting reasons for supporting Ernie would make Rico proud.

[fishercob]

Fish - JoJo, you quote my post, but don't respond to what I'm saying. You respond to things that are in the same neighborhood as what I'm saying.

Hands - I believe he was responding to your view of incomplete and luck.

OK, then quote or underline those parts of the post.

Fish - Why is my disapproval of the Haywood trade "nitpicking?" Why is any criticism of Grunfeld somehow unpatriotic?

Hands - Now that's funny Fish. Could you be any more absurd if you tried? Unpatriotic ?

Patriotism is the love of country or homeland. Maybe you would have understood "disloyal" better, but I think most gotwhat I was saying. with DC and the Wiz being said "homeland." If I wanted to be more absurd, I suppose I could wax poetic about this wonderful thread.

Fish - To the question at "hands," the simple answer is "incomplete." How can we possibly evaluate Ernie's moves until this new team plays a season or two? The rush to grade everything is is counterproductive. There's a lot of nuance and shades of gray -- everything isn't simply good or bad.

Hands - How you evaluate is simple as many people here have done, you included. So we can't give an initial grade of the moves since Nov 24th until you say we can in two years ? How is this counter productive ? counter productive to what ? This is a message board about discussing the Wizards. Then the obvious... there are many shades of gray. Everything isn't good or bad. Now that is something I clearly agree with. That is how I see things and was one of the major points of the thread.

You can give whatever grade you want. It's not it means anything. Ernie cleaned up a lot of his own salary mess and has gone young. The success of the strategy is tied to what becomes of the young players. If McGee becomes and all-star, Seraphin is the bastard child of Nene and Ben Wallace, and Booker becomes a key contributor, then great. Mission accomplished. If they fail miserably, then the plan didn't work. We're not going to know for a little while.

So you agree with my point about nuance and shades of gray, yet you want to assign a letter grade -- ranging from excellent to average -- to Ernie's performance since a specific date in time. Doesn't seem so nuanced to me.

I get the overall point of this thread. You've been making it for some time -- that Ernie under Ted does not equal Ernie under Abe. I even agree with you. But the thread is a weak attempt to frame the discussion in such a way that absolves Ernie of any responsibility for the team's failures under Abe, yet gives him credit for what he's done under Ted so far. Which is it? Does the owner get the credit/blame or does the GM?

What Ernie has shown is if he's given freedom to build a roster how he wants with a general "build me a winner" edict, he makes big mistakes. He signs Antonio Daniels for too long and to get him out of town ends up trading him for Mike James. He signs Songaila for too long so that dumping his salary becomes a key benefit of trading away a high lottery pick. He either couldn't see -- or couldn't convince his boss -- that the path to a winner meant breaking up the supposed big three. I'm betting on the former based on the team he built in Milwaukee.

Under Ted, he's been given a strict set of plans -- no long term contracts, go young. With Ted standing over his shoulder, it's really not all that hard to carry out. Oh, and here's John Wall.

I have nothing against Ernie, even though he's made some big mistakes here. I think with Ted running the show and doing things his way, Ernie's good enough to bring us a title. Hell, nothing would make me happier. But it will be because of Ted, not Ernie, when that happens. Ernie has shown what happens when he has full reign.

[Ruzious]

I have nothing against Ernie, even though he's made some big mistakes here. I think with Ted running the show and doing things his way, Ernie's good enough to bring us a title. Hell, nothing would make me happier. But it will be because of Ted, not Ernie, when that happens. Ernie has shown what happens when he has full reign.

Ernie can be the technician - if you will - while Ted is more the architect.

GMGM (George McPhee) was pretty much a mediocre at best GM before Ted gave him an effective plan for the Caps. Now, GMGM is the man running the best organization in hawkey - using Ted's blueprint.

[hands11]

This thread will be more applicable to more people as time goes on. It started to soon for some because they don't feel there is enough to evaluate because we haven't seen enough players play enough yet while some feel there is enough to evaluate since Abe. For me, there is enough to at least get started. More will be revealed.

EG was on his own there for a little while and made nearly immediate moves to break the team up while walking between the rain drops of the Pollin family wanting to sell, while Gil was in trouble and Ted was wanting the buy. I personally think that was a tough place to operate and he did pretty swift and sound job about what he did so I give him a favorable grade there. My guess is that since Ted was a part owner, EG was already asking him for some direction about what he wanted to see. But it looks like, EG had his finger on the trigger ready to blow this up once Abe wasn't the owner anymore. That is my guess based on what I saw.

But it actually sounds like we are mostly on the same page except how to evaluate who to give credit and if we can evaluate EGs part which is in part the reason for the thread. The second reason was to get pumped about our front office and team in general. Are we on the shorter road to success. Cuz if we need a new GM, that is a longer road as we transition and re-evaluate our players and head coach to make what that new GM would want.

This is in large part the logic challenge. Separate what you can separate and try to figure out things that happened jointly best you can from what you know happened when pieces were separate.

Like SATs. If A is part of B and B is part of C stuff. But you can't prove a negative.

EG was only on his own here a short while until Ted showed up, so we have that.
Then we have EG with Ted and EG with Abe. Plus we have Abe with other front offices.

I expect EG with Ted to be a lot better. And absolutely it will have a lot to do with Ted's leadership/plan. Just as I felt it had a lot to do with Abe so I feel I'm being consistent there. I believe it all starts at the top and who the owner is has a strong influence. If EG had a different plan from the one we saw executed while Abe was owner, it's almost impossible to determine what it was and how different it was from what we are seeing know in detail. And I would never blame the GM for not being able to change an owners mind. Owners own and have the final word on the plan and who is signed. See Snyder. They have the final word no matter how logical a different plan is. This happens all the time in corporate America and in sports. I taught it was well known that Abe wanted a winner before he passed so we at least know that part was dictated from him. And that alone is a very restricting piece for someone to operate.

I don't even know clearly how the Abe/EG thing worked behind closed doors but it didn't look like the mandate was, EG.. do whatever you want to build a long term championship team. I'm just the owner. Do what you want. Money is no object. Time is not a factor. If that was the case, no doubt you blame EG for everything since he got here. And I can at least see by the fact that Abe selected EJ before his GM that Abe was involved at that level of molding the front office, which leads me to believe Abe wanted it done his way to at least that level and EG wasn't in total control. It was like that the day he got here. That's not even taking a ton of other things from Abe past into account. EG wasn't even allow to choice his own coach until last year. Personally, I think that is kind of a big thing to a GM and the order of your front office and has a huge effect on how things turn out.

But again, post Abe, we saw EG operate on his own a little and now we see him with Ted. So far, it looks better than EG with Abe. EG is only the GM and in my book a GM is going to look a lot better when he has a great owner who is behind a great plan for him to execute and deliberate with about how to execute. All the better if the owner comes up with the great plan, then there is no one higher than the GM who needs convinced to do it.

So if EG starts looking a lot better with Ted, Ted will no doubt be a huge reason. And if we compare that to EG and Abe then you can evaluate the EG piece that is in the middle better.

A=Abe
B=EG
C=Ted

If A and B is bad and B and C looks good then I would conclude it was the "A" that was bad more the problem than B

And that is all I think you will ever really know unless there are more quote or investigating to prove more. I personally have no idea if EG loves Teds plan. I think it is clear from the Caps that we can see it is Teds plan though. Maybe EG loves it. I really have no read on that. I hope he does. All the better.

But what I do want to feel more confident about and I hope is true is that Ted and EG are a good or great partners in the front office and that because of that, we are about to watch a prolonged period of success. That is what I am hoping for. Because if that evaluation is wrong, we have a longer road to walk and more transitions to go through and as a fan, I hoping that isn't the case.

[Dat2U]

Follow the common denominator. Pollin plus every other combination has equalled a losing franchise for the better part of 30 years. Grunfeld has won plenty at other stops.

The common denominator is that you have an excuse for everything when it comes to Grunfeld. You praise his good moves and assign blame to his bad ones. It's a pretty consistent pattern.

Also, Grunfeld was fired from his previous two stops.

[Ed Wood]

Follow the common denominator. Pollin plus every other combination has equalled a losing franchise for the better part of 30 years. Grunfeld has won plenty at other stops.

The common denominator is that you have an excuse for everything when it comes to Grunfeld. You praise his good moves and assign blame to his bad ones. It's a pretty consistent pattern.

Also, Grunfeld was fired from his previous two stops.

Yeah that is happening a little bit, but I think it's swinging both ways here because I'm getting the sense that Grunfeld lost all power over the team as soon as anything remotely positive started to happen from some of the critique here. I think there's a little more validity to that because Ted has openly described his preferred modus operandi while no footage of Abe demanding the resigning of DeShawn Stevenson has yet been found but I think just about every post in this thread has a little bit of that confirmation bias flavor.

[montestewart]

^
We're a flavorful bunch

[JonathanJoseph]

Follow the common denominator. Pollin plus every other combination has equalled a losing franchise for the better part of 30 years. Grunfeld has won plenty at other stops.

The common denominator is that you have an excuse for everything when it comes to Grunfeld. You praise his good moves and assign blame to his bad ones. It's a pretty consistent pattern.

Also, Grunfeld was fired from his previous two stops.

Yes, I recognize that he has made both good and bad moves and realize that the good outweighs the bad by a large margin (as every good GM has some bad moves). Further, there's shades of grey where sometimes good ideas don't end up working out in the end. For example, I recognize that while the 09-10 Wizards ended up a trainwreck for which Grunfeld deserved blame, plenty of folks around the NBA thought that Grunfeld had assembled a very talented roster.

And yes, I realize that Grunfeld was fired from his 2 previous stops and yet both of those franchises were contenders when he left and have been miserable (like Bullets/Wizards miserable) since. So I think that point actually reinforces my point.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

The common denominator is that you have an excuse for everything when it comes to Grunfeld. You praise his good moves and assign blame to his bad ones. It's a pretty consistent pattern.

Also, Grunfeld was fired from his previous two stops.

Yes, I recognize that he has made both good and bad moves and realize that the good outweighs the bad by a large margin (as every good GM has some bad moves). Further, there's shades of grey where sometimes good ideas don't end up working out in the end. For example, I recognize that while the 09-10 Wizards ended up a trainwreck for which Grunfeld deserved blame, plenty of folks around the NBA thought that Grunfeld had assembled a very talented roster.

And yes, I realize that Grunfeld was fired from his 2 previous stops and yet both of those franchises were contenders when he left and have been miserable (like Bullets/Wizards miserable) since. So I think that point actually reinforces my point.

I disagree about the good vs bad, but it's been beat to death by others and I've stayed out of it. Just my opinion.

As for his last two stops Larry Harriswas picked by Kohl as EG's immediate successor in Milwaukee. Milwuakee canned him in 2008. He drafted Bogut, Redd, and Yi Jianlian among others. Blake, Boykins, Booth, Simmons, and Mike James were all part of his rosters at some point. He had young draft picks and a lot of guys who have been a part of Wizards mediocrity. JoJo, Milwaukee's GM after Harris, John Hammond won the 2010 NBA Executive of the Year. Jenning and Salmons, coached by his coach Scott Skiles and that team made the playoffs last season. Milwaukee is hardly miserable now. Compare the Bucks' wins vs salary the past few seasons and compare with the Wizards under EG. You be the judge

However, in fairness, Ernie was very successful as Knick GM and he was also successful as Bucks GM.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernie_Grunfeld

While Grunfeld was the Knicks top executive, New York advanced to at least the Conference Semifinals of the NBA Playoffs each season. He had five 50-plus win seasons, three Atlantic Division Championships, and two trips to the NBA Finals (in 1994 and 1999). In eight seasons as general manager or vice-president of player personnel, his Knicks teams had a record of 397–227 (.636), and a 61–44 record in the playoffs.

...he took the job as the Bucks' general manager on August 13, 1999, after 17 seasons with Knicks. He held the position for four seasons. The team’s 14 playoff wins during his tenure exceeded the team’s cumulative total in the 12 seasons prior to his arrival. The Bucks posted a record of 177–151 (.540), and never finished below .500, while making the playoffs three times.

I am not a capologist. You guys know I rarely go there because I am over my head on cap stuff. I just wonder if EG hasn't always been on top of cap stuff with all the collective bargaining agreement and salary progession stuff over the years. I think he definitely has an eye for talent and he's been successful as a GM in the past. However, things pointed out in this thread many times by myself and others lead me to think EG just pays too much and rewards mediocre talent with too lengthy deals.

Overall, I think this will be a great year for EG because I like the talent on the team a lot now. I do not like Yi's or Hinrich's deals (Yi I can live with, however). But both those guys could pay off this season. I wonder if Armstrong needed a guaranteed spot so soon. Otherwise, I like what EG has done.

[WizarDynasty]

if Seraphin pans out and i really think he will be at least as good if not better than Atlanta hawks Al Horford, EG has to be considered one of the top GM's in the league. All eyes rest on Seraphin.
Hinrich, a former second team defender was definitely an above average gm move. Finally recognizing that Butler, Haywood, and Jamison were fools gold--and transforming them into Howard-a two way player was EG's turning point from average to above average. Seraphin, if he works out boost EG to superstar status. EG is definitely an above average GM. The moves he has made within the last 2 years--bringing in Cassell, not trading Arenas. I devoted an entire year to bashing EG but i honestly can say that most of my criticism have been destroyed by brilliant moves of Leonsis-Grunfeld era. Mostly Ted--Grunfeld got blatche, arenas, and mcgee still on the roster.
We honestly would be the pacers right now if Wes Unseld were making roster moves still.

[JonathanJoseph]

As for his last two stops Larry Harriswas picked by Kohl as EG's immediate successor in Milwaukee. Milwuakee canned him in 2008. He drafted Bogut, Redd, and Yi Jianlian among others. Blake, Boykins, Booth, Simmons, and Mike James were all part of his rosters at some point. He had young draft picks and a lot of guys who have been a part of Wizards mediocrity. JoJo, Milwaukee's GM after Harris, John Hammond won the 2010 NBA Executive of the Year. Jenning and Salmons, coached by his coach Scott Skiles and that team made the playoffs last season. Milwaukee is hardly miserable now. I would venture to as you to compare the Bucks' wins vs salary the past few seasons and compare with the Wizards under EG.

Huh? For starters, Grunfeld was the one who drafted Michael Redd, so scratch that off the Larry Harris resume. I don't really know what you are trying to suggest with your list of players.

Grunfeld's 4 years in Milwaukee included 44 wins/year and 3 trips to the playoffs.

Taking the last 7 years since Grunfeld left Milwaukee, they've averaged 35 wins/year with 2 trips to the playoffs, and that's taking this last season into account. It took them 7 full years to get back to .500.

I don't see how you can paint that picture any other way, the franchise has been a mess since Grunfeld left. I'm certain the same before/after analysis for the Knicks would prove to be even more stark.

The Wizards went to the playoffs once in 15 years before Grunfeld arrived and then went 4 times in a row. The Wizards were a young team on the rise when the injuries hit.

I get that everyone is so jaded after the most miserable 2-season stretch for any NBA franchise imaginable, so it's easy to assume the GM sucks, but prior to this stretch Grunfeld's got a 20 year resume that shows he's a very, very good NBA GM.

[Benjammin]

[
Taking the last 7 years since Grunfeld left Milwaukee, they've averaged 35 wins/year with 2 trips to the playoffs, and that's taking this last season into account. It took them 7 full years to get back to .500.

I don't see how you can paint that picture any other way, the franchise has been a mess since Grunfeld left. I'm certain the same before/after analysis for the Knicks would prove to be even more stark.

The Wizards went to the playoffs once in 15 years before Grunfeld arrived and then went 4 times in a row. The Wizards were a young team on the rise when the injuries hit.

I get that everyone is so jaded after the most miserable 2-season stretch for any NBA franchise imaginable, so it's easy to assume the GM sucks, but prior to this stretch Grunfeld's got a 20 year resume that shows he's a very, very good NBA GM.

35 wins a year that sounds so familiar to me, just like another team over the past seven years, maybe someone can help me which team that would be...

Oh, that's right, that would be the Wizards.

[hands11]

As for his last two stops Larry Harriswas picked by Kohl as EG's immediate successor in Milwaukee. Milwuakee canned him in 2008. He drafted Bogut, Redd, and Yi Jianlian among others. Blake, Boykins, Booth, Simmons, and Mike James were all part of his rosters at some point. He had young draft picks and a lot of guys who have been a part of Wizards mediocrity. JoJo, Milwaukee's GM after Harris, John Hammond won the 2010 NBA Executive of the Year. Jenning and Salmons, coached by his coach Scott Skiles and that team made the playoffs last season. Milwaukee is hardly miserable now. I would venture to as you to compare the Bucks' wins vs salary the past few seasons and compare with the Wizards under EG.

Huh? For starters, Grunfeld was the one who drafted Michael Redd, so scratch that off the Larry Harris resume. I don't really know what you are trying to suggest with your list of players.

Grunfeld's 4 years in Milwaukee included 44 wins/year and 3 trips to the playoffs.

Taking the last 7 years since Grunfeld left Milwaukee, they've averaged 35 wins/year with 2 trips to the playoffs, and that's taking this last season into account. It took them 7 full years to get back to .500.

I don't see how you can paint that picture any other way, the franchise has been a mess since Grunfeld left. I'm certain the same before/after analysis for the Knicks would prove to be even more stark.

The Wizards went to the playoffs once in 15 years before Grunfeld arrived and then went 4 times in a row. The Wizards were a young team on the rise when the injuries hit.

I get that everyone is so jaded after the most miserable 2-season stretch for any NBA franchise imaginable, so it's easy to assume the GM sucks, but prior to this stretch Grunfeld's got a 20 year resume that shows he's a very, very good NBA GM.

and

EG has only GMd here one year with a coach that was competent and that he actually selected

So if one your right you have a below average coach who is hand picked from your below average owner who is on your left, then how do you evaluate the GM who is in the middle of that without taking those factors into account? He was the GM of a crappy front office.

HC is a huge thing and a GM usually is the one who picks them because they need to be on the same page and the coach is going to make soup from the ingredients and run the team. Well, we have documented the EJ effect and I believe most ended up giving him a poor grade.

The owner is also hugely important in a front office and I believe we have plenty of history on Abe.

So if the owner is bad and the HC that owner picked is bad, how good would a GM need to be to overcome that. He would have to be one of or the best GM ever to walk the Earth to shine in that situation. And in that crappy situation he brought enough talent here to get us to the playoffs a few times. I used to say we won in spite of EJ more than because of him.

But now EG has his HC coming back into his second year. A HC is his first year coming to an under-performing team would have been challenging enough but Flip walked into a land mine. No AJ to start the season. Foye and MM injured before they got to blend with Gil. Abe died. CB and Gil never mixed well again. Gil and Critter and the gun thing. Flip may have not done everything the best it could have been done but that was a lot to deal with also. So he gets a fresh start this year which is a second year. That alone should have been better.

With a great owner and Flip ( picked by EG ) coming back for his second year, I think we will be able to better evaluate the cream filling that is in the middle - EG

[Zonkerbl]

Interesting point, EG got EJ a high quality defensive center in Haywood. Is it EG's fault EJ wouldn't play him? I'd instead give credit to EG for not getting rid of BH when EJ demanded he be traded. Or BH demanded it. Or whatever the heck happened that year, don't remember.

[closg00]

and

EG has only GMd here one year with a coach that was competent and that he actually selected[/u]

So if one your right you have a below average coach who is hand picked from your below average owner who is on your left, then how do you evaluate the GM who is in the middle of that without taking those factors into account? He was the GM of a crappy front office.

HC is a huge thing and a GM usually is the one who picks them because they need to be on the same page and the coach is going to make soup from the ingredients and run the team. Well, we have documented the EJ effect and I believe most ended up giving him a poor grade.

The owner is also hugely important in a front office and I believe we have plenty of history on Abe.

So if the owner is bad and the HC that owner picked is bad, how good would a GM need to be to overcome that. He would have to be one of or the best GM ever to walk the Earth to shine in that situation. And in that crappy situation he brought enough talent here to get us to the playoffs a few times. I used to say we won in spite of EJ more than because of him.

But now EG has his HC coming back into his second year. A HC is his first year coming to an under-performing team would have been challenging enough but Flip walked into a land mine. No AJ to start the season. Foye and MM injured before they got to blend with Gil. Abe died. CB and Gil never mixed well again. Gil and Critter and the gun thing. Flip may have not done everything the best it could have been done but that was a lot to deal with also. So he gets a fresh start this year which is a second year. That alone should have been better.

With a great owner and Flip ( picked by EG ) coming back for his second year, I think we will be able to better evaluate the cream filling that is in the middle - EG

Hands has waved his magic wand and expects us to forget this:

Washington Wizards President Ernie Grunfeld announced today that the team has picked up the option on the contract of Head Coach Eddie Jordan, keeping him under contract through the 2009-10 season. Per team policy, financial terms of the contract were not released.

“Eddie has done an outstanding job and has been instrumental in making us a perennial playoff team, so we are pleased to reward that success by picking up the option on his contract,” said Grunfeld. “We are very excited about the upcoming season and feel that this team is ready to progress to another level under Eddie’s leadership.”

Ernie Grunfeld re-upped Jordon with a fat contract only to have to shell-out millions to make him walk. And yes, people on this message-board knew better at the time that he would regret it.
Don't bother responding Hands, this is getting embarassing.

[montestewart]

^
I'm not a knee jerk pro-EG poster, and I still don't know whether that was EG's idea or Pollin's idea. I prefer to stick with things I feel reasonably certain of, so I focus on execution, regardless of whose idea it was. I always kind of got the feeling that EG would rather not have EJ.

[closg00]

^
I'm not a knee jerk pro-EG poster, and I still don't know whether that was EG's idea or Pollin's idea. I prefer to stick with things I feel reasonably certain of, so I focus on execution, regardless of whose idea it was. I always kind of got the feeling that EG would rather not have EJ.

EJ should have been fired for not playing Haywood, especially during the playoff series vs the Cavs. I'll never forget the tip-off with Etan vs Z. EG was the enabler during the entire fiasco.

[verbal8]

^
I'm not a knee jerk pro-EG poster, and I still don't know whether that was EG's idea or Pollin's idea. I prefer to stick with things I feel reasonably certain of, so I focus on execution, regardless of whose idea it was. I always kind of got the feeling that EG would rather not have EJ.

Trying to bring in Thibodeau was a sign that EG was not thrilled with EJ. I think it fell apart because Pollin backed EJ in power struggle with EG.

[closg00]

^
I'm not a knee jerk pro-EG poster, and I still don't know whether that was EG's idea or Pollin's idea. I prefer to stick with things I feel reasonably certain of, so I focus on execution, regardless of whose idea it was. I always kind of got the feeling that EG would rather not have EJ.

Trying to bring in Thibodeau was a sign that EG was not thrilled with EJ. I think it fell apart because Pollin backed EJ in power struggle with EG.

Yes, that was a great move to bring Thibodeau in, but Ernie lost-control of the situation. EJ knew what was up and he and or his assistants froze Thibs-out so he bolted to Boston. Pull-up Ivan's Insider reports on what went down. Stop blaming Abe.

[Ruzious]

^
I'm not a knee jerk pro-EG poster, and I still don't know whether that was EG's idea or Pollin's idea. I prefer to stick with things I feel reasonably certain of, so I focus on execution, regardless of whose idea it was. I always kind of got the feeling that EG would rather not have EJ.

Trying to bring in Thibodeau was a sign that EG was not thrilled with EJ. I think it fell apart because Pollin backed EJ in power struggle with EG.

Yes, that was a great move to bring Thibodeau in, but Ernie lost-control of the situation. EJ knew what was up and he and or his assistants froze Thibs-out so he bolted to Boston. Pull-up Ivan's Insider reports on what went down. Stop blaming Abe.

I agree - I think that was EJ's and friends doing. But by the same token, EJ likely wouldn't have had the chutzpa (sp?) to do that if he didn't think that EG couldn't/wouldn't touch him. Of course, EJ wasn't counting on the poor start to the season and found he was touchable.