Caron Butler

[Nets44]

http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/ ... ng_butler/

I think he would be an excellent addition for this season. He's not too old and would fit in pretty well, and could help us actually compete this season. Viable #1 option.

[enetric]

I dont want anyone that helps us just compete this season. I want someone who can make us GREAT for seasons beyond. I like Butler for a team that is a playoff team looking to up to contender. I dont like him for a team that has so much youth and rook contracts in need of superstars. He gets in the way of all that we need. Our cap space, our prospects and our losing all help us more long term than he would. He doesnt fit the team direction.

[Lamak]

I like his playing style, but he won't help us do anything this season. Also, what would we trade for him?

[iDunk]

I'd like that actually.

Caron Butler

for

Courtney Lee
Kris Humphries
2nd rounder / OR Trade Exception if we have any

PG: Devin Harris
SG: Caron Butler
SF: Terrence Williams
PF: Derrick Favors
C: Brook Lopez

That's a playoff team.


Devin, Brook, Butler > Arenas, Jamison, Butler

[vincecarter4pres]

Caron Butler is the definition of what this team should not do right now...

[halfHAVOC]

Nah we don't need him right now, we are trying to rebuild with young pieces and develop these players, we aren't a contender so theres no point in giving away young players or picks for him

and plus

how many times can we trade with the mavs?

[jerseyjac]

Caron Butler is the definition of what this team should not do right now...

without a doubt...it would be different if we were signing some big star, putting a true run together...Caron would be a nice piece...if we added him now, mediocracy...ugh

[demens]

Where are the throw up smileys at?

[enetric]

Where are the throw up smileys at?

Surprised to hear you say that. Typically these are the moves you LIKE. In fact, he is better than some of the names you have said you want to go after with 10mil plus per year contracts.

[demens]

Where are the throw up smileys at?

Surprised to hear you say that. Typically these are the moves you LIKE. In fact, he is better than some of the names you have said you want to go after with 10mil plus per year contracts.

The difference being that the moves i like bring in players that actually fit a need and come with additional assets rather then costing us talent and adding to an already overcrowded position.

[enetric]

Not the AK or Tay moves you wanted before July 1st.

And Butler fills or filled a need much better than those clowns.

I agree...dont want him either...but you seem to like the idea of adding talent now and improve short term regardless of long term impact...that was why I was surprised you didnt like the Butler idea. Its rare you agree with the masses on moves. This just sounded like the stuff you tend to favor.

Feel free to detail your thinking more. I mean I get the expiring contract with picks attached...sure. And there is nothing wrong with that...in February...just not now. Holding the cap space for the potential of a BIGGER trade makes more sense in August was the only issue I have with your recent thoughts regarding the open cap space. It wasnt that i didnt think doing what you said is a terrible idea ALWAYS....its just thinking small in terms of what we COULD get for that cap space.

The improvement is so marginal...that it is worth waiting to see if we can do better than some of thsoe recent suggestions.

[demens]

Not the AK or Tay moves you wanted before July 1st.

June 24th to be exact. Before we drafted a SF and signed 2 more. If we were talking about Butler at that time and he wouldn't cost us a pick or Lee like proposed here, i would not be against it. Now that the need is filled its pointless, and i would never give up Lee for him. I dont even think much of Twitt but i would not give him up for Butler either unless we also get a 1st.

[enetric]

OK....clears that up for me.

It baffles my mind that you think more of Lee over Twill...but hey...that's fine. I agree Twill has his flaws....but either you havent seen him play enough...or saw him on the wrong days. THe kid OOOOOOOZES talent. He has to work on his shot...but the kid has serious game.

One other thing. Can you understand the argument fo wanting to save the cap space until close to the trade deadline rather than add someone of no value just to add a low first rounder and clog up the cap space so we CANT make a big trade should it be there? I have no issue with using it at the deadline for some big expring contract...and grabbing a pick at the deadline if a major player isnt there for us.

But to do it now????? Makes no sense. THat is the definition of wasted cap space.

[demens]

But to do it now????? Makes no sense. THat is the definition of wasted cap space.

And what would be the definition if there is no trade trade at the dead line (like last year), what would the cap space be then?

I do understand waiting for the deadline, but i also understand the incompetence that has plagued this team over the years, thats why i'd rather take a deal i know is available over wait to take one that may or may not be. What i dont understand is why some people think its so vital to have cap space in order to make a trade. It is possible to make trades without cap space, and having 9M will allows you to do 99% of what you would have done if you had 14M.

[enetric]

What then? So then instead of 11 picks for the next 3 years you still have 10. But if you wait? That space COULD equal something special.

Is one more low first round pick...one of those picks you know the majority of the time is a bust....and when they work out typically you get a guy no better than a Farmar or Petro (someone easy to find in the off season at a low price) the rest of the time. So? For the extreme long shot that the 11th pick we have...is going to become the rare special find...why give away the cap space?

I would also like to point out to you...teams rarely give up first rounders to dump contracts in August anyway. What you are proposing...it happens at the deadline as well when teams need to get under the cap...or under the LTT. Until then....they tend to prefer to see what they have than show their ticket buyers or existing players that they want to give away their draft pick just to save cash before the season even starts. This is the time of the year those teams are looking to sell false hope. They clean up their mess after being able to show everyone..."well, we tried. Its not OUR fault"

What you call incompetence is in fact your unlreaistic expectations. Realize it or not...this teams was run properly given its circumstances. Luck, timing...all play a part in direction. But big bucks were spent even when results werent there. Big trades were made. THere werent trades that would have improved our sitation. We should have tried for a better record at the break with 7 wins???? THat would have made sense? More wins, less ping pong balls? For what?

I have no desire to debate the value of Rod THorn with you....the vast majority of the planet thinks you are wrong...and then when you defend Kahn one of the worst GM's in the NBA...it just makes you look silly by contrast. But...that is your right.

And for the last part of what you wrote....having cap space isnt "so vital". You arent understanding. Its so VALUABLE. Other teams...when they are dumping better players....want two things. To SAVE money...and to add young low paid assets. Having MORE of one...allows you to send out LESS of the other.

And...having more cap space gives you an edge over the majority of the league at any given time. Look around. Everyone has a prospect or two. But right now there are three teams in the entire NBA with MAJOR cap space. The other two teams are in the West. That tends to give the team in the east a leg up on anyone major IN the west as that teams prefer to ship face of the franchise players out of conference. So? Its an advantage. There are also a couple of teams with TPE's in the east...but the young, low paid side of their talent...not so hot. THe overall point is....the cap space keeps us on a short list of teams that can save someone out there MAJOR cash. Why settle for low first rounder when it is possible to tilt the advantage at landing proven star player? What if that gives us the edge?

AN 11th pick for the next three years in August to add a contract we dont want or need? Even if its out there...its such small interest to gain and such a low risk to lose...why give away the advantage we have? Basically...its just a worthwhile gamble...end result be damned.

Well, now you have a legit explanation to your quetion. Hopefully it helps you going forward in understanding what we have been trying to say...and what the motivation is to sit tight with the cap space. Again...FOR NOW.

[enetric]

Demens...I wrote a reply above this post for you yesterday....I remain optimistic that it helps clear up some things for you...perhaps bridges some of the gaps and why you receive such strong opposition to so many of your posts from the majority of our regulars. I admire passion in any poster...which is why so much energy has been offered in the face of my frustration.

This article was posted to Nets Daily today...I thought of this thread and it just made sense to post it here.....

When a Star Becomes Available...Cap Space is Crucial
by Net Income on Aug 8, 2010 7:22 AM EDT in 2010 Free Agency 80 comments

More photos » Jack Dempsey - AP
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The Nets are $14.947 million under cap, second in the league to the Kings. Their goal is to have between $14 and 15 million in cap space going into the season and between $15 and 18 million next summer. They might trade for a power forward but are waiting to see how fast Derrick Favors advances.

Why hold on to cap space when there are good players out there who could help you? It's all about being ready to move quickly should the opportunity to acquire a star suddenly arise.

The reason is that every year, at the trade deadline and again on Draft Day, unhappy stars, even superstars, become available. Sometimes, the possibilities are obvious and well-publicized, like when Vince Carter or Jason Kidd, demanded trades from Toronto and New Jersey. Sometimes, they're not so obvious or well-publicized, like when Kidd and Carter were traded with little warning by Phoenix and New Jersey.

Preparing for that opportunity means having a menu of odd assets on hand because what most NBA teams receive for their unhappy star isn't another star, but a package drawn from that menu. History shows a combination platter of cap space or expiring contracts combined with draft picks, young players, cash and trade exceptions often satisfies the team looking to deal.

Nothing is more important that cap space. Large salaries can be swallowed up by cap space. The more you have, the more you can engineer a deal without matching salaries, without dealing in the arcane world of exceptions.



There have been a few exceptions to the rule. Sometimes stars are traded straight up for stars: Allen Iverson for Chauncey Billups, Jason Kidd for Stephon Marbury and Shaquille O’Neal for Shawn Marion. But If you look at recent trades of stars who wanted out and what their former team got in return, you'll see the pattern holds true: teams that have odd assets wind up with the star.



(Players with expiring contracts are marked with an asterisk)

--June 25, 2009: The Orlando Magic acquired Vince Carter and Ryan Anderson from the New Jersey Nets for Courtney Lee, Tony Battie* and Rafer Alston*. The Nets also acquired two trade exceptions, one for $1.23 million (which was used to acquire Chris Quinn) and the other for $3.73 million (which was used to acquire Kris Humphries).

--February 18, 2008: The Dallas Mavericks acquired Jason Kidd, Malik Allen*, and Antoine Wright* from the New Jersey Nets for Devin Harris, DeSagana Diop*, Trenton Hassell, Maurice Ager, a signed and traded Keith Van Horn*, two future first round picks, and cash considerations believed to be $3 million. The Nets also received a $3.3 million trade exception (which was used to sign and trade Keyon Dooling).

--February 2, 2008: The Los Angeles Lakers acquired Pau Gasol and a 2010 second round draft pick from the Memphis Grizzlies for Kwame Brown*, Javaris Crittenton, a signed and traded Aaron McKie*, the draft rights to the #48 pick in the 2007 NBA Draft, Marc Gasol, and two future first round picks.

--July 31, 2007: The Boston Celtics acquired Kevin Garnett from the Minnesota Timberwolves for Ryan Gomes, Gerald Green*, Al Jefferson, Theo Ratliff*, Sebastian Telfair, the return to Minnesota of the future first round pick that was initially traded to Boston on January 26, 2006, and a future first round pick from Boston. Simultaneous with the trade, Kevin Garnett removed his ability to opt out after the 2007-2008 season and then signed a multi-year contract extension with the Boston Celtics which will begin in the 2009-2010 season.

--June 28, 2007: The Boston Celtics acquired Ray Allen and the draft rights to the #35 pick in the 2007 NBA Draft, Glen Davis, from the Seattle Supersonics for Wally Szczerbiak, Delonte West, the draft rights to the #5 pick in the 2007 NBA Draft, Jeff Green, and the better of Boston's own 2008 second round pick and Portland's own 2008 second round pick

-- December 17, 2004: The New Jersey Nets acquired Vince Carter from the Toronto Raptors in exchange for Alonzo Mourning, Aaron Williams, Eric Williams and two first-round draft picks.

--December 19, 2006: The Denver Nuggets acquired Allen Iverson and Ivan McFarlin* from the Philadelphia 76ers for Andre Miller, Joe Smith*, and two 2007 first round draft picks.

--July 15, 2004: The New Jersey Nets signed Kenyon Martin to a seven-year, $91 million contract with a $1.5 million signing bonus and a player option after the 6th season, then traded him to Denver for three future first round picks. The Nets also received a $5.2 million trade exception (which was used to acquire Marc Jackson after the Shareef Abdur Rahim deal fell apart.)

--July 14, 2004: The Los Angeles Lakers traded Shaquille O'Neal to the Miami Heat for Lamar Odom, Caron Butler, Brian Grant*, and a future first round draft pick.

Couldn’t they do better? That’s often the question asked after a trade. Raptors fans asked it after the Carter trade and Grizzlies fans practically screamed it after the Gasol trade. Probably, but sometimes GM’s want rebuilding pieces more than big contracts. With their stars gone, GM's are faced with bad choices. It was reported that in the hours after ESPN broke the news of the first Carter trade, GM’s called Toronto claiming they could do better. While Rob Babcock lost his job as Raptor GM because of the trade (and some atrocious draft choices), the trade did eventually free up money so the Raptors could sign inexpensive European stars and re-sign Chris Bosh.

And sometimes those draft picks and draft rights work out as well. Marc Gasol isn't his brother, but he's pretty good. Jeff Green isn't Ray Allen, but he'll be around a lot longer. In the case of the Nets big superstar trades, it can be argued that Courtney Lee and Damion James were by-products of the Jason Kidd trade and of course Vince Carter was acquired primarily for two of the three draft choices picked up in the Kenyon Martin trade.

One other thing: of the nine trades mentioned above, five involved either Bobby Marks or Billy King. They know how it's done.

[vincecarter4pres]

Fun Fact: Billy King was the one who traded for Pau Gasol on draft night, in exchange sending SARS to Atlanta. Once allievated of his duties with the Griz, he took the job in Atlanta, which mainly involved cleaning up the mess he ultimately created by duping them when with Memphis...

[realfung]

I would not trade Lee for any player that cannot help two years later