Retro POY '75-76 (Voting Complete)

[JordansBulls]

I can go with the Lakers still being able to run in 1987...they could still turn up the gas from time to time. And it's not nitpicking. I do think that those times came fewer and farther between as Kareem had a less focal role in the offense played fewer minutes and (eventually) retired.

JordansBulls...I'm not going to say you're trying to ensure MJ has the #1 spot. But, in the last couple of voting periods, you've said things like Bill Walton was "worn down" compared to Kareem (in a season where Walton played 800 minutes less than Kareem and had an excellent, physical frontcourt partner to help share the demands), compared Kareem to David Robinson (when DRob had an history of post-season failures), explained away a team with a better RS record being unable to make the playoffs as a result of conference strength and arrangement with “they knew the rules before the season started,” described the 1976 Gail Goodrich as “[in his] prime,” implied that had the Wizards made the playoffs when MJ was there that MJ would have been a top five player, repeatedly emphasized the impact of Kareem “demanding” a trade (an impact that was not was reported at the time, and the Bucks got plenty in return), and fired a pre-emptive strike at Bill Russell seven years before we're going to start voting on his seasons.

But I'm not going to say you're trying to ensure MJ ends up at #1. I'm going to say it really, really, really looks like that's what you're doing. Especially after Michael Jordan led a team to a 40-42 record, got swept in the first round (and had a relatively poor playoff series)...and you voted him second in the league that year. In a season where 16 out of 23 teams made the postseason.

I understand what you are saying, when I mentioned that Walton was more worn down than Kareem, I was mainly talking about the playoffs that year as he had to play an extra round early on to get to the next round while Kareem had the 1st round off being fresh for the next round. Playoff Basketball is more intense than regular season ball.
And I never said Gail Goodrich was in his prime, but I did acknowledge that he was already an allstar before Kareem came this season. In fact he was an allstar the previous 4 seasons before Kareem came.

And my problem with this is well the 80's Eastern Conference was wayyyyy tougher than the 70's Western Conference considering you had one man teams lead teams to titles. Not only that but half of the best players were in the ABA as well.

I just don't get this here. Had anyone else in there prime missed the playoffs a few times in a row they would be getting blasted.

BTW I had reedited my vote the other day to include Kareem in the top 5. I moved him to 4th.

I can also say that "Dr Mufasa" removed Walton from his list in 1978 so that Walton wouldn't win that year as well. But then people wouldn't care about it.

If "Dr Mufasa" can essentially eliminate Bill Walton in 1978 when Walton won MVP and when he led his team to the best record in the conference/league and no one get on him for that, then I see no problem in a guy who didn't make the playoffs not being in the top 5. I mean hell if there was no ABA this year, Kareem would be getting ranked #1 here. How can you honestly be ranked #1 in a given year if you didn't even make the playoffs?

[Dr Positivity]

Ftr - My criteria for voting is "How close does this season get a team to a championship?" with as many variables aside from the player eliminated as possible. A player's value to me is how they contribute to winning the title. Walton's playoff injury meant his contribution to his team's title run is relegated to getting them a good seed and playoff bye. The only way you win a title with Walton's 78 season is to have a team good enough to win one without him, in which case again, his value is getting them HCA and nothing more. The example I used in the 77 thread was you stand a better chance of winning the 2010 title with a healthy Paul Pierce than a Lebron who goes down in round 2. And Pierce is maybe the 20th best player in the league, not top 5. So to me Walton's season was not close to a top 5 most valuable one.

Understandably, Walton got his team to Round 2 in 78 and Kareem didn't make it period in 76. But this is CLEARLY a result of extra variables aside from the two players, mainly, their team. And from my understanding about this project, we're supposed to be trying to eliminate the extra variables and vote for the best seasons in a vacuum. There is different criteria voters use, but it seems to me everyone is trying to at least follow that base rule of voting for the player alone and not letting the supporting cast impact that vote.

Despite Walton 78 makes it two rounds farther, your chances of winning a title with 76 Kareem are good, and your chances of winning one with Walton 78 are 0 unless the playoff run has nothing to do with him. That would be my defense for these two votes.

[ronnymac2]

There is a lot of depth. Competition for the final three spots is tough. Jabbar and Erving must be one and two. Jabbar’s the best in the game. Erving had a Perfect Storm year and is better than everybody else anyway.


Celtics vs. Suns. I wanted to watch a game in this series so badly, but I just don’t have the time this week. Hopefully, I can watch some games from 75 over the weekend.

White wins Finals MVP. He’s clearly not the best player on his team though. Silas is ultra-valuable. Hondo is old but awesome. Cowens is probably the best player. The only one in the running is Cowens. Hondo isn’t productive enough. I have to say though- for an old man by basketball standards, his minutes played and actual play despite injury in the finals is inspiring and amazing.

Gilmore is in the running, though I’m not in love with his game. The farther back we get, the rawer his offense gets.

Barry is definitely in the running. It’s a travesty that he has gotten such little mention in this thread. It’s like history repeating itself. Barry gets overlooked decades later.

Gervin averaged 27/9 in the playoffs, but I wouldn’t take him over the other I have so far. Randy Smith was an awesome player. Amazing athlete who jumped into the sky to get rebounds over taller players. Led the playoffs in assists, good defender, and could score. Not making it, but need to give him credit for the player he was.

My apologies to Phil Smith and John Drew. I don’t know who the **** those players are.

My dude Nate Thurmond is only a solid player with a high-profile name at this point. He’s out.

Mcadoo is a contender. Walton is one, too. Lanier and Frazier are.

Archibald, Mcginnis, Issel, Barnes, Thompson, Jones, Unseld, Hayes, Adams, Westphal, and Knight are great players who won’t make the cut. Too much competition. Maravich, too.

Cowens, Gilmore, Barry, Mcadoo, Walton, Lanier, Frazier….I’ll decide later tonight.

[penbeast0]

I have the same problem with people saying Artis Gilmore's post game wasn't good as I do with people today saying Dwight Howard's is poor and people in the late 90s saying the same about Shaq's. (probably the two best comps to Artis in the post)

What matter is results and if you achieve those results by physically overpowering everyone despite a relatively raw skill set or if you achieve them by using great skills to overcome average physical gifts . . . the results are the same (though in a head to head battle against different opponents they might differ).

[Manuel Calavera]

Hopefully this isn't too late:

1. Erving
2. Kareem
3. Gilmore
4. Cowens
5. McAdoo

[ronnymac2]

Ahhh...Gotta do this quick.....

Final Rankings:

Julius Erving
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Artis Gilmore
Dave Cowens
Bob Mcadoo

Bad-ass HM: Pete Maravich

HM: Rick Barry and a lot of others......

[ElGee]

1976 SI Articles:

McGinnis pre-season: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm

Previews:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm

Kareem's early season impact: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm

Fascinating article on merger prospects: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm

Feature on Warriors success: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm

*Bill Sharman thought no one wcould win on raod bc of LA's horrid road record. People were obsessed with a home-court dominance theme this year.

Feature on Bob McAdoo: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm

The Nuggets dominance: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm

Nets-Spurs: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm

Mac v McGinnis: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm

As the ABA's largest crowd ever, 18,821, settles in, Hubie Brown buries the hatchet. "This crowd, this arena and this game," he says, "will be a tribute to our league and to basketball."
One man makes it so. David Thompson comes to play. The Denver rookie has been frustrated so far in the series. After one Nugget defeat he sobbed shamelessly.
Now with his team behind, Thompson soars and dives and banks for 10 second-quarter points and a 57-56 Denver half-time lead.
In the third quarter the Nuggets are behind again when that inevitable magic moment arrives. Thompson floats above the lane. Artis Gilmore goes up in front of him. At the ceiling Gilmore cleanly blocks while Wil Jones bangs Thompson from the side. But somehow David pulls back the ball, double-pumps, hangs some more and lofts it over everybody for the score. It is a slap-five-and-stomp-your-brains-out play. It is the beginning of a 17-6 Denver spurt in which he scores 11 points.
The Nuggets' lead is 10, then 16 while Thompson is hitting eight straight baskets from all over. At the end of Denver's 133-110 victory, Nugget Bobby Jones has five blocks, Ralph Simpson 14 assists and Dan Issel 24 points and 12 rebounds in outplaying his old teammate Gilmore. But dynamite David Thompson, who says, "Once I get going, it's hard to stop," contributes 40 points, 10 rebounds, five assists.
"Fantastic, simply amazing," Gilmore sighs. "This kid is in a category of his own.

Dr. J and ABA Finals: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm

Warriors-Suns (Good thing Rick Barry doesn't his spell his name L-E-B-R-O-N: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm

Roundups:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm

[Doctor MJ]

Moving deadline back to tomorrow night due to some changes in my schedule.

[drza]

1. Dr. J
2. Kareem
3. Cowens
4. Gilmore
5. Mcadoo

This is the project that just keeps on giving, as far as delivering difficult to judge situations that you have to think about. Trying to gauge the differences/strengths/weaknesses across the NBA and ABA is an almost impossible exercise without making a lot of logic leaps and assumptions. Dr. MJ did a great job, I think, of stating Dr. J's case in a way that seems to bridge the NBA/ABA chasm. I could see the case for Kareem, but it's hard to ask for more than Dr. J did that year so that should get him his first POY award.

Kareem is a given at this point. I did think the raised point about the Walton-Kareem vs Erving/Kareem competitions were well raised and don't have a definite answer either way. Erving did have a much better statistical case against Kareem than Walton did, and he didn't have the injury issues, but at the best-of-the-best levels I've found that stats don't always do an adequate job of getting everything across anyway without more context such as direct viewing and more detailed advanced stats...and even then it's difficult. In the end, for both of these comparisons I've been forced to kind of go with the stats and what I've read as a default when I wouldn't be at all surprised if my views would be different had I lived through those times and/or had access and time to watch extensive video.

Cowens, McAdoo and Gilmore seemed like the logical choices to round out the top-5, though they could have gone in just about any order.

[Sedale Threatt]

I was pretty confident taking Kareem over Walton, but this one I'm not so sure. Feels more like I'm throwing a dart at the board for two legends at the peak of their game. I'm probably too much of a stat guy, so it's really hard to pick against the Doctor.

At the same time, Kareem might have been even better than he was in '77 -- 28 points, 17 rebounds, 5 assists, 4 blocks and 1.5 steals while sweeping the advanced metrics. Yeah, it was his fault the Lakers didn't make the playoffs. What a slug.

It was an easier decision in '77 as there was the head-to-head matchup, which Kareem won in my mind, as well as probably the best individual series performance of his career in the previous round. When the competition is this tight, little tie-breakers like that come in handy. Here, there are none.

And still, I can't pick against him. I'm going to acknowledge my bias here -- not necessarily as a Lakers fan, but a basketball fan in general who thinks Kareem was unfairly blamed for failing to lift crappy and/or depleted teams beyond their capabilities. It's hard to say he wasn't appreciated considering the awards he won. But the Jerry West quote I keep harping on about sums it up for him: "It was never enough."

I know stats don't tell the entire story, but just look at those numbers and tell me that he's in any way, shape or form to blame for L.A. sucking. So...

1. Kareem.

2. Erving. Like Walton last year, would have been a clear-cut choice in any other year. Unreal production, great individual and team success. Just don't think he was as good as Kareem.

3. McAdoo. He had some great years during this span, and he's going to get pretty much overlooked because a handful of his peers were even better.

4. Cowens. Down to him and Gilmore, and I like Cowens. Sort of like Bill Walton lite, with more breadth to his game than Artis. More skill, more impact.

5. Gilmore. Not the biggest fan, but it's just impossible for me to ignore a dominant center.

[lorak]

1. Dr J
2. KAJ
3. McAdoo
4. Barry
5. Cowens

[ElGee]

ABA vs. NBA Comparison

After reading about how the ABA dominated the NBA (31-17) in the preseason, I compared the 1976 ABA All-Stars (+the top 3 Nuggets) with the 1976 NBA All-Stars to see how each group played in 1977 when merged. Some players were excluded due to not missing too much time the following year (Silas, Barnes, McAdoo, Archibald) and some due to obvious aging (Bing and Havlicek). That left 14 ABA players and 21 NBA players.

The 13 ABA players averaged (unweighted) -0.4 pts/75 possessions in 1977 in the NBA. They also averaged -0.8 reb/75. The average relative TS% was nearly idential (dropped 0.1%) and the Ast/75 was identical.

ABA All-Star PLAYER PERFORMANCE 1976 to 1977

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            Pts/75   Ast/75   Reb/75   Rel TS%
Difference  -0.4     0.0      -0.8     -0.1%


Two players (Buse and Jones) made All-Defensive 1st team in 1977 in the NBA, Taylor All-Defensive 2nd team. Jones was an all-star, Erving, Gervin and Thompson All-NBA performers.

Well, how does that compare to the change from the NBA All-Stars?

NBA All-Star PLAYER PERFORMANCE 1976 to 1977

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            Pts/75   Ast/75   Reb/75   Rel TS%
Difference  -0.3     0.1      -0.3     0.1%


Collins, Cowens, Van Lier and Tomjanovich went on the make the 77 All-Star team. Van Lier the All-D team. Kareem, White, McGinnis (a former ABAer) and Elvin Hayes made All-NBA.

Side by Side:

DIFFERENCE IN ALL-STAR PERFORMANCE FROM 1976 to 1977

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       Pts/75   Ast/75   Reb/75    Rel TS%   All-NBA
ABA     -0.4    0.0      -0.8     -0.1%      3/13
NBA     -0.3    0.1      -0.3      0.1%      4/21


The other 3 All-NBA players in 1977 were Walton, Maravich and Westphal.

One possible explanation for the change in rebounding numbers is height. For players playing at least 10 mpg, the average listed height in the ABA in 1976 was 6-5.8. The NBA average height at the time was over 6-7.

[ElGee]

My 1976 POY Ballot:

1. Julius Erving
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Bob McAdoo
4. David Thompson
5. Rick Barry

This year was an exercise in confusion. My goal was to make sense of the differences in the leagues and evaluate the "best player" based on the leagues being merged. This becomes fuzzy because the ABA uses a 3-point line and the NBA doesn't, although from what I've seen the spacing isn't radically different and the 3-point line isn't used too frequently in the ABA (about 6x less than today on average).

Given that Kareem and Doctor J are clearly the two best players, my question was how each would play if the leagues were combined? Doctor J obviously struggled at times early in his NBA career, although I think a fair amount of that was McGinnis' presence/scheme. The deciding factor for me was Erving's undeniable greatness in the postseason, in which he averaged ~35 ppg on nearly +10% relative efficiency. He had 45 points in G1 of the Finals including the buzzer-beater. He had 48-14-8 in G2. These are freakishly dominant numbers. Sure enough, he has similar games against the Blazers in the 77 Finals, so despite a large statistical change I think Doc's skill-set is just fine for the combined league, and it's fair to say he had the best season in 1976.

Sedale makes an interesting point about Erving 76 relative to Walton 77. But I don't think Kareem 76 is as good as Kareem 77. Thus, by the narrowest of margins, Dr. J gets the nod.

Bob McAdoo is comfortably third. Nothing more to say about him that hasn't already been said.

Not far behind McAdoo are a group of players. My finalists were Cowens, Gilmore, Barry and Thompson. I can see any two of those players cracking the list, but here is my thinking:

David Thompson trailed only Cap, Walton (not in play), Erving and Hayes (would be my No. 8) in 1977. Thompson exploded onto the scene in 76 and had, arguably, a better year than he did in 77. He had bigs games against the NBA in the exhibitions. He played well all year. He earned an MVP vote as a rookie (one of 4 ABA players with Doc, Silas and B. Jones). He then stepped it up in the playoffs against the two best defenses in the ABA, highlighted by the 40-10-5 explosion in SI and a valiant 42 point performance in G6 of the ABA FInals.

Rick Barry was just behind Thompson in 77, and I think he's right in that same ballpark again. All-around great player - one of the best passing forwards ever and running a good amount of offense. I'd take his 24-7-7 in the playoffs over the two bigs and it's hard for me to leave off someone many people was a top 2-3 player in the world in May 1975.

As for Cowens and Gilmore, I'm not sold. I'm mentally curving Artis' rebounding numbers because of competition, but that's how he gets a couple easy baskets/tips a game from what I can tell. His defensive impact is greater than Cowens, but I don't view it as epic. If I did, I would have him fourth. His offensive game does a little to be desired. More than that, I think there's something wrong with his team posting a 0.5 SRS and the fact that he went to Chicago the next year, his numbers plummeted, and the team's DRtg improved only 1.8 pts/100 (good, but not good enough to place him at No. 4 on defensive merit alone).

With Cowens, I look at the Celtics and see a really good squad, especially a balanced starting 5. He and Silas were rebounding monsters -- +645 rebounding differential! -- but when offensive efficiency starts to dive, rebounding becomes less important. That team posted a 2.2 SRS in a somewhat watered-down NBA (IMO). Cowens does have a nice game in some ways -- solid defender, faceup, hook, garbage man, decent passer -- but he's more of a cog to me than the players ahead of him.

[ronnymac2]

Ahhh...Gotta do this quick.....

Final Rankings:

Julius Erving
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Artis Gilmore
Dave Cowens
Bob Mcadoo

Bad-ass HM: Pete Maravich

HM: Rick Barry and a lot of others......

Doc....I'm changing this. Sorry. Have had more time to look.


Final Rankings:

Julius Erving
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bob Mcadoo
Rick Barry
Dave Cowens

ElGee convinced me that Barry deserved a spot. Or at least, he convinced me I shouldn't be guilty of putting Barry in for no reason, as I actually had him on my original list.

Pistol still gets the bad-ass HM. Gilmore gets a special HM as well.

[tkb]

1. Julius Erving
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Bob McAdoo
4. Dave Cowens
5. Artis Gilmore

[ElGee]

Ahhh...Gotta do this quick.....

Final Rankings:

Julius Erving
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Artis Gilmore
Dave Cowens
Bob Mcadoo

Bad-ass HM: Pete Maravich

HM: Rick Barry and a lot of others......

Doc....I'm changing this. Sorry. Have had more time to look.


Final Rankings:

Julius Erving
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bob Mcadoo
Rick Barry
Dave Cowens

ElGee convinced me that Barry deserved a spot. Or at least, he convinced me I shouldn't be guilty of putting Barry in for no reason, as I actually had him on my original list.

Pistol still gets the bad-ass HM. Gilmore gets a special HM as well.

I was actually kind of blown away by the group conformity this season. I believe every other ballot before this page had the same 5 players (would have been an RPOY first). This was especially startling to me given:

(1) the fuzziness of 2 different leagues being in play
(2) we're 35 years in the past
(3) I had 9 players on my radar and shuffled 4 through 7 about 8 times.

Btw, game 6 of the 76 Finals is on youtube. I had seen G5 numerous times but never game 6. The players are exhausted so it's not the greatest watch, but I think those 2 games capture the balance of the Celtics well (Charlie Scott is on point, White plays really well, Hondo is being Hondo and Cowens has a really good game as well). I understand why White was given MVP over Cowens.

[Doctor MJ]

My vote:

1. Julius
2. Kareem
3. Cowens
4. McAdoo
5. Artis

The guy I feel like I'm doing a disservice to: Barry.

[Doctor MJ]

Last call.

[Doctor MJ]

'75-76 Results

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Player               1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts   POY Shares
1.Julius Erving       15   3   0   0   0 171   0.950
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 3  13   1   1   0 129   0.717
3. Dave Cowens         0   1   6   7   3  61   0.339
4. Bob McAdoo          0   1   8   3   4  60   0.333
5. Artis Gilmore       0   0   3   4   8  35   0.194
6. Rick Barry          0   0   0   2   3   9   0.050
7. David Thompson      0   0   0   1   0   3   0.017


[semi-sentient]

Site updated: www.dolem.com/poy

Kareem still sitting behind Shaq for #6, and Dr J moves up to the #10 spot just behind Kobe.

Code: Select all

1.  Michael Jordan       9.578
2.  Magic Johnson        7.114
3.  Tim Duncan           6.153
4.  Larry Bird           6.147
5.  Shaquille O'Neal     5.910
6.  Kareem Abdul-Jabbar  5.479
7.  Karl Malone          4.649
8.  Hakeem Olajuwon      4.380
9.  Kobe Bryant          4.326
10. Julius Erving        3.816
11. Moses Malone         3.478
12. Kevin Garnett        3.388
13. LeBron James         3.083
14. David Robinson       2.431
15. Dwyane Wade          2.179