Retro POY '74-75 (Voting Complete)

[Doctor MJ]

To Vote in 1974 you had to at least be a teenager 13+ . Is there any point in going back this far everyone is looking at stats, and titles now.

The primary goal behind this project was to spend time collectively analyzing years that were before our time so we can better understand the history of the game. So yes, there is a point.

[semi-sentient]

1974 is when I was born, so I can honestly say I remember watching a lot of guys play this particular year. If you believe that, then I've got a house that's worth 5% less than what I owe to sell you.

[tkb]

1. Rick Barry
2. Bob McAdoo
3. Artis Gilmore
4. George McInnis
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Thanks for the insight on McInnis TLA. Didn't have him on my radar initially, but after reading your post I decided to include him on my ballot.

[ronnymac2]

In 2002, Shaquille O'neal missed 15 games. In 1975, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar missed 17 games. Many of you voted Shaq at number one or two that year. Now, many are thinking about leaving Kareem off the ballot.

Just think about that. Think about what the differences are between O'neal's season and Jabbar's season. Then, think about why those differences occurred.



Rick Barry will be in my top three. Other contenders are Hayes, Gilmore, Erving, Cowens, Mcginnis, and Mcadoo. And Kareem, obviously.

I think I used to underrate Bob Mcadoo. I don't think I'm going to do that anymore. He was very good.

[JordansBulls]

In 2002, Shaquille O'neal missed 15 games. In 1975, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar missed 17 games. Many of you voted Shaq at number one or two that year. Now, many are thinking about leaving Kareem off the ballot.

Just think about that. Think about what the differences are between O'neal's season and Jabbar's season. Then, think about why those differences occurred.



Rick Barry will be in my top three. Other contenders are Hayes, Gilmore, Erving, Cowens, Mcginnis, and Mcadoo. And Kareem, obviously.

I think I used to underrate Bob Mcadoo. I don't think I'm going to do that anymore. He was very good.

One won the title and finals mvp while the other didn't make the playoffs.

If Shaq doesn't make the playoffs in 2002 he probably doesn't make the list either.

[penbeast0]

Yeah, basically if you actually put Kareem into the top 3 this year you are basically saying you don't care what his impact on his team actually was; just what it "might have been if..." And, people are putting him over guys with EQUAL OR BETTER numbers and MUCH BETTER team impact (Gilmore,McAdoo, Erving). He really doesn't have a very good argument by my lights for even a top 5 vote this year but over any of these three is screwed up.

Gilmore -- better rebounding and appreciably more efficient, though less ppg, plus played 82 games and led his team to a title -- behind Kareem?
Erving -- Statistical impact roughly equal per game considering postitional adjustments, plus played 82 games and led his team to a 58 win season -- behind Kareem?
McAdoo -- outscored Kareem by 5 ppg on same efficiency (with more outside shooting), rebounded at an equal level (despite having a better rebounding PF), contemporaries voted him MVP in NBA, played 82 games and led his team to a 49 win (.600) season -- behind Kareem?


Kareem has legit arguments for at least 2-3 MVP seasons in the period from 71-74 but anyone putting him over either of the above three this season (no serious statistical edge, missed 20% of season, team finished under .500 and out of playoffs) is voting based on what seems to me to be some seriously biased criteria.

[fatal9]

Yeah, basically if you actually put Kareem into the top 3 this year you are basically saying you don't care what his impact on his team actually was.

3-14 and worst team in the league without him, a respectable 35-30 with him shows no impact on his team? If Kareem's team goes a respectable 7-10 or 8-9 without him (or something along those lines) and Bucks make the playoffs, he is all of a sudden a better player for it? I don't think anyone has put Kareem over McAdoo either. And again, you simply can't compare ABA statistics with NBA ones, ABA grew stronger as the 70s went on, but there was little focus on defense, the league overall wasn't deep and was undersized (which is why you see Dr. J avertaging 11-15 rpg in the ABA, or Gilmore averaging 18 rpg, and never coming close to those numbers in the NBA).

[ElGee]

Was watching this McAdoo footage, and, well, Oscar Robertson's color commentary. I mean. There are no words. Really - I'm speechless. Enjoy: (There is a part 2 and 3 if interested.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2CbMjbir_w

[ElGee]

Kareem and Cowens +/- Sketch for 1975

Like Kareem, Dave Cowens also missed 17 games in 1975 (Boston went 9-8). Ran the same numbers for team differential with/without Cowens. The results:

Code: Select all

             ppg     opp ppg    diff   Road Games   Opp SRS
w/out        109.7    106.1     3.7    8             0.6
w/Cowens     105.7    99.4      6.3
Differential                   +2.6


Here's Kareem (only 16 of his 17 games missed - I can't find his other missed game):

Code: Select all

             ppg     opp ppg    diff   Road Games   Opp SRS
w/out        93.4    99.4      -6.0    9             1.1
w/Kareem     102.4   100.7      1.7
Differential                   +7.7


So, I'd say the Celtics played a slightly above average schedule without Cowens, the Bucks played a hard schedule without Kareem.

[ThaRegul8r]

1. Rick Barry. 30.6 points (2nd in the league), 5.7 rebounds, 6.2 assists (6th), 2.85 steals per game (1st), .904 FT% (1st). Should have been league MVP, was NBA Finals MVP.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=X7 ... 893,101731

2. Bob McAdoo. Led the league in scoring at 34.5 points per game, ranked fourth in rebounds with 14.1 per game, fifth in field-goal percentage at 51.2, sixth in blocked shots with 2.12 per game, and Buffalo had the third-best record in the league. NBA Most Valuable Player. 37.4 points (led the postseason), 13.4 rebounds and 2.71 blocked shots per game in the playoffs.

3. Artis Gilmore. 23.6 points (6th in the league), 16.2 rebounds (2nd), 2.5 assists, 3.07 blocked shots (2nd) in 41.6 minutes per game (1st), .580 FG% (2nd). 24.1 points, 17.6 rebounds (led the postseason), 2.5 assists, 2.07 blocks in the playoffs. ABA Playoff MVP.

4. Julius Erving. 27.9 points (2nd in the league), 10.9 rebounds (8th), 5.5 assists (7th), 2.21 steals (4th), 1.87 blocks (4th), .512 FG%, .565 TS%, ABA MVP.

Hmm. I'm undecided as to my #5, but the voting will likely be done by the next time I come back here. I'll put McGinnis here.

"The Golden State Warriors head into the National Basketball Association championship series the same way they opened the season, as decided underdogs."
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=u4 ... 41,3314807

"The Warriors lost four important members of their 1973-74 team—Nate Thurmond, Clyde Lee, Cazzie Russell and Jim Barnett—but instead of settling for a rebuilding year they won the Pacific Division championship."
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=fA ... 78,2217205

Mike Riordan looked at as Washington's "Barry Stopper."
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Tj ... 70,1925178

Game 1, NBA Finals: Golden State 101, Washington 95
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=yV ... 46,2596369

Game 2, NBA Finals: Golden State 92, Washington 91
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=dO ... 30,1895138

Game 3, NBA Finals: Golden State 109, Washington 101
"The remarkable Warriors, leading the series 3-0 despite being huge underdogs prior to the nationally televised best-of-seven-set, can win their first NBA title since moving to the West Coast from Philadelphia in 1962 by beating the Bullets Sunday in Landover, Md."
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=eD ... 95,4578038

Game 4, NBA Finals: Golden State 96, Washington 95
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=wg ... 14,3913081
"Not only was the Warriors' sweep a remarkable achievement, but just the fact that they beat the heavily favored Bullets was one of the most incredible achievements in basketball history."

Game 1, ABA Finals: Kentucky 120, Indiana 94
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=cZ ... 95,2341958
Artis Gilmore, with 26 points

Game 3, ABA Finals: Kentucky 109, Indiana 101
Artis Gilmore, with 41 points—13 in the fourth quarter—and 28 rebounds—11 on the offensive glass.

Game 4, ABA Finals: Indiana 94, Kentucky 86
Artis Gilmore, “who dominated the middle in the previous playoff games,” had “for him a sup-par night” with 18 points and 18 rebounds, and “wasn’t much of a factor in the decisive final period.”

Game 5, ABA Finals: Kentucky 110, Indiana 105
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=vF ... 32,5240197
Artis Gilmore team-high 28 points and ABA playoff-record 31 rebounds.
“During the championship series, the 7-2 Gilmore reaffirmed his claim as the ABA’s premier big man to such a point that ‘awesome’ was almost becoming his first name.”
“We tried everything to contain Gilmore but we couldn’t and that was the series,” said Indiana assistant coach Jerry Oliver

[ItsMillerTime]

1.Rick Barry - Easily the best player this season
2. McAdoo - Crazy stats, and did work in the POs
3. Artis Gilmore- Clear best ABA player
4. Elvin Hayes - Pretty nice season
5. George McGinnis
HM: Cowens, KAJ, Erving

[Dr Positivity]

1. Rick Barry
2. Julius Erving
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Bob McAdoo
5. Artis Gilmore

IMO Dr. J is getting underrated in this thread. Sure he only shot 46% in the playoffs (hell, Barry only shot 44%), but that's a pretty small sample size which means it's prone to situational circumstance and the luck of FG%... overall he was still a 28/10/6 absolute TANK in both the RS and PS, and 46% isn't even that bad. If he put his normal efficiency in the PS I'd probably have put him #1 pretty handidly with Kareem's missed games as to me Kareem and Erving were the best players in the world at this point. Barry's 30/6/6 with an NBA title and great playoffs is enough for me to put him over those guys... but Erving and Kareem are still a class above McAdoo, Gilmore to me, who's games are not as complete.

McInnis... great stats all around except for the debbie downer... 5.3 TOs a game. Can't take him over McAdoo and Gilmore with that. Too hard a year.

[Dr Positivity]

I'm feeling really unsure about my vote. This has to be one of the hardest years

[Doctor MJ]

And again, you simply can't compare ABA statistics with NBA ones, ABA grew stronger as the 70s went on, but there was little focus on defense, the league overall wasn't deep and was undersized (which is why you see Dr. J avertaging 11-15 rpg in the ABA, or Gilmore averaging 18 rpg, and never coming close to those numbers in the NBA).

I wanted to get into this a little bit.

So first off, to respond to the specific points on Erving & Gilmore:

Erving's TRB% in the last year of the ABA was 13.6. His peak in the NBA came in '81 at 12.5. Doesn't seem like a huge gap.

Gilmore's TRB% in the last year of the ABA was 19.0, and it went UP to 19.4 his first year of the NBA. (Gilmore played less minutes in the NBA, hence the lower rebounding totals - if there's an argument about his inability to play minutes, I'm open to it)

So, to the extent Erving & Gilmore's stats were glaringly inflated, I'd say it happened in earlier years.

More generally, I'm a bit fascinating by this set of facts:

-Offenses in the ABA were indeed more successful than offenses in the NBA.
-In the last year of the ABA, the 3 best defenses were 1) Erving's team, 2) Gilmore's team, 3) Denver Nuggets.
-In the first year of the merger, 1) Denver has the best defense, 2) Gilmore's new team has the 2nd best, 3) Erving's new team has the 4th best.

I don't have a problem with the idea that some adjustment is needed between these two leagues because of the success of offenses in the ABA, but is it really fair to say that the ABA played poor defense when it appears that ABA defense seemed to do fine in the NBA?

Additionally, if we were to accept the idea that it was easier to score in the ABA, but not because defenses in the ABA were inherently inferior, what was the cause?

[shawngoat23]

1. Rick Barry
2. Bob McAdoo
3. Julius Erving
4. Artis Gilmore
5. Elvin Hayes

This was a pretty tough year, and I don't think a whole lot separates #1 from #5 and the Honorable Mentions.

I think Rick Barry is a weaker #1 candidate than many of the other players earning such honors in other years, but in the end, he's one of few players who can claim to have led a team to the NBA championship without a strong #2 option (with all due respect to a rookie Jamaal Wilkes). Thus, like Hakeem in 1994 or Duncan in 2003, he should get strong consideration for the #1 spot, and in the end, I've settled on him in this slot.

Bob McAdoo was a beast this year. While Erving and Abdul-Jabbar are probably better players, neither were as productive this year, and McAdoo certainly has every right to be called the Most Valuable Player of the regular season. His Braves finished with 49 wins, good for third in the league, and he absolutely filled it up on the statsheet.

I'm slotting Erving at #3 despite the Nets' disappointing collapse against the Spirit of St. Louis in the playoffs. I think it's abundantly clear that he's the best player in the ABA, and his team still managed to post a solid 58 wins in the regular season. Statistically, he dominates across the board, finishing 2nd in the league in total points, 7th in rebounds, 4th in assists, 3rd in steals, 4th in blocks, while dominating the advanced stats. Between that type of productivity, his MVP accolades, and the intangibles (not least of which includes being the face of the league), I'm more than willing to excuse the fact that his team disappointed in the postseason and put him at #3, especially since he has a strong case of being the most dominant individual player of the era.

Gilmore comes right after Erving at #4, as the anchor on the Kentucky Colonels championship team. The fifth slot went to Elvin Hayes for being the best player on the NBA finals Bullets, who posted a league-leading 60 wins.

I thought Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, probably the most talented and dominant player in either league, would certainly make my top 5, but I cannot excuse a combination of lack of team success and an injury-marred regular season (65 games) with no playoffs appearance. Certainly, the Bucks' failures in the postseason in his absence speaks to his importance on the team, but I cannot in good faith put him above other deserving (if less talented players) who logged more games. Similarly, I wanted to put Cowens in the top 5 in recognition of his role on the 60-win Celtic team, to which he brought great intangibles in addition to his statistical productivity, but his 17 games missed also stands out.

I also considered giving recognition to George McGinnis, but I have to admit I shied away from him because I don't know much about him (which is obviously no fault of his own). He might still make the cut at #5 if I were to modify this list. I also wanted to throw an honorable mention to Bobby Jones.

[ThaRegul8r]

I think Rick Barry is a weaker #1 candidate than many of the other players earning such honors in other years

How, considering the fact that Golden State wasn't supposed to contend for anything this year? Considering the fact that defeating Washington in the Finals was a HUGE upset, let alone sweeping them? That's not impressive? It must be because you don't think the stats match up then.

[shawngoat23]

I think Rick Barry is a weaker #1 candidate than many of the other players earning such honors in other years

How, considering the fact that Golden State wasn't supposed to contend for anything this year? Considering the fact that defeating Washington in the Finals was a HUGE upset, let alone sweeping them? That's not impressive? It must be because you don't think the stats match up then.

His ability to lead a team with a relatively weak supporting cast was impressive, but I don't believe he is the individual talent that other players are.

Here's a list of players I've voted #1:
LeBron James (2x)
Chris Paul (1x)
Tim Duncan (4x)
Dwyane Wade (1x)
Kevin Garnett (1x)
Shaquille O'Neal (3x)
Michael Jordan (8x)
Hakeem Olajuwon (2x)
Magic Johnson (2x)
Larry Bird (4x)
Moses Malone (2x)
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (2x)
George Gervin (1x)
Bill Walton (1x)
Julius Erving (1x)
Rick Barry (1x)

I'd say he's one of the weaker candidates.

[ElGee]

3 Quick things:

Re: McGinnis

The guy was a physical specimen. A real freak of an athlete, and talented from what I can tell. His strength, physique and explosion stood out to me when I first saw footage of him, and in researching this project I've learned he injured people while playing from being so strong.

He also used to love to hold the ball with one hand and perform a series of dipsy-do moves and fancy passes. Which, while entertaining, also probably contributed to his record number of turnovers (literally, he shattered the turnovers record).

Re: Kareem

I can't believe suddenly I'm arguing for Kareem, but I think he's being underrated here. Yes, his own coach did say he had a down year. Yes, he missed 17 games. But he's still REALLY good. Depending on how one handles missed games, my question is why would he suddenly be completely off ballots in 75? I don't know where I'll have him, but I'm just wondering if the reaction is a little extreme simply because the Bucks played horrendously without him.

Re: Barry

Conversely, why is Barry suddenly number 1 when most people haven't even given him a vote in the last 2 years? Are people likening this to Walton's impact in 77??? Again, I don't know where I'll have him, but it just seems like people are basing a lot on the old team success. Which is strange, because their SRS in 1976 was significantly better, and even if all of that is credited to Wilkes and Smith improving, is Barry still not having a comparable impact?

(Btw, my early take is that some of that 76 team performance can be seen in the 75 playoffs, along with Barry playing well -- they went undefeated when he scored over 30).

[ThaRegul8r]

I think Rick Barry is a weaker #1 candidate than many of the other players earning such honors in other years

How, considering the fact that Golden State wasn't supposed to contend for anything this year? Considering the fact that defeating Washington in the Finals was a HUGE upset, let alone sweeping them? That's not impressive? It must be because you don't think the stats match up then.

His ability to lead a team with a relatively weak supporting cast was impressive, but I don't believe he is the individual talent that other players are.

Here's a list of players I've voted #1:
LeBron James (2x)
Chris Paul (1x)
Tim Duncan (4x)
Dwyane Wade (1x)
Kevin Garnett (1x)
Shaquille O'Neal (3x)
Michael Jordan (8x)
Hakeem Olajuwon (2x)
Magic Johnson (2x)
Larry Bird (4x)
Moses Malone (2x)
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (2x)
George Gervin (1x)
Bill Walton (1x)
Julius Erving (1x)
Rick Barry (1x)

I'd say he's one of the weaker candidates.

I thought you were talking about what he did in this year being less than other #1s did in their seasons, which would also mean that this must not have been a particularly strong year. But you're saying that Barry < players who you voted PotY in the past and thus being a weaker candidate.

So in order to be a "strong" candidate, a player can't be any lower than a certain ranking on a GOAT list? According to RealGM's rankings, Barry > LeBron (#24 to #36), Paul (unranked), Wade (#24 to #52), Gervin (#24 to #33), and Walton (#24 to #47). But I don't think it's fair to say, "Well, he isn't as good as people like Jordan and Magic who were PotY, so I don't feel right about him being Player of the Year and joining that company." Each season is judged on its own merit. If we'd gone in chronological rather than reverse order would he still be a weaker candidate because he wasn't as good as Russell, Wilt and Kareem?

[TMACFORMVP]

I definitely think this is Barry's year. Guys like McAdoo and Hayes have similar caliber seasons, but one separates himself when he leads his team to the chip in an unthinkable upset. Could argue it's a similar situation with Artis in the ABA, but I'm not sold he was as dominant, nor achieved as an impressive feat in the playoffs.

As Snakebites mentioned in a recent 74-75 competition, Gilmore's competition to the title was actually a bit mis-leading. The Colonels faced two teams under .500, and a mediocre 45 win team in the Finals. Granted it's not a slight against the Colonels and Gilmore for beating those teams that they were matched up against, compared to whom Barry beat, and the underdog status in each series, Barry's run to the title is markedly more impressive. Saying that, Gilmore was the catalyst for their championship and a monster on both ends of the floor.

Kareem is an interesting case, from a pure game standpoint, he's easily Top 5, and someone I'd take over a McAdoo sort, but he missed games while also missing the playoffs (Price, and Dandridge were all-stars too IIRC). Erving is in a similar boat, except he was more dominant in this respective season, but got upset in the first round to a questionable St. Louis team led by Barnes. How much can you blame Erving? I'm not sure, his efficiency dropped, but still did 28/10/6 in a losing effort.

Hayes is underrated IMO. He was a beast defensively, and while his FG% wasn't high, near unstoppable offensively. He was great in the playoffs (26/11 on 47%), but underperformed in the Finals where they swept against an inferior team. Nonetheless, he's often a player cited for poor locker room behavior, and inefficiency on offense, but what he is was a very good low post offensive player, and very good defensive player that was the main man on those Bullet teams (I've seen many times people call Unseld the "best player," the heart perhaps, but not the best player).

For McAdoo, he had a dominant regular season, and somewhat like Erving, was very good, but better in the first round loss. Would go over Erving, based on the fact the Braves lost to a Bullets team, and pushed them to the brink in a seven game series.

For now, I'd rank them like:

1. Rick Barry
2. Bob McAdoo
3. Artis Gilmore
4. Julius Erving
5. Elvin Hayes

The 5th spot is either Hayes or Kareem. I think it's somewhat clear who the better player was, but it's also clear who had the better season in terms of accolades and team accomplishments. For now, I'll give Hayes the last spot, but can be swayed.