Keeping an eye on Ex-Warriors

[and1GS]

Maybe u need to refreshing but Clifford Ray was here and they let him walk away! So that's an invalid point right now.

Yes they let him walk...and now his contract is up and he's told me that he wants to return to the Warriors if his salary with the C's isn't raised.

They let him go originally because of 1 thing: Cohan is a **** moron. Dampier had a career year once Cliff starting giving him personal training sessions, same with Adonal. Then Damp peaced out and so did Cliff.

McHale coaches just like Cowens...like an **** that thinks he should be handed another Celtics dynasty chalk full of already developed players. He didn't give a **** about developing Jefferson and you're fooling yourself if you say otherwise.

[SFWarriors62]

Does he have any rapport with Lacob?

[FNQ]

Jefferson has developed into one of the better post players while playing in Minny! Of course the team clearly is bad and one player can't turn around a whole team. I did mention KG and you are leaving him out of this discussion. He also has develop into a great player with McHale help but this team still sucks. So what's your point?

No, he did that in Boston. He was averaging 20 a game after the AS break in Boston, while still not the clear-cut #1 option there. McHale had absolutely nothing to do w/his development, and likely the development of KG either, unless McHale intervened on what his coaches were doing, took the time off from being a GM and went on court and coached KG himself.

I know its annoying when your theories are shot to hell by facts, but its going to keep happening if you just flat out make stuff up.

[GSForever]

Hey FNQ! Blah, Blah and some more Blah! Whatever u say buddy! I know you're a little young to remember McHale. I've got plenty of experience playing and watching bball. So here is some more blah for u

[and1GS]

Does he have any rapport with Lacob?

McHale/Cowens, probably not. I know that Cliff doesn't know him. Clifford's a really humble guy, he doesn't socialize with people outside the NBA or his friend circle.

[FNQ]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... lits/2007/

Al Jefferson's splits his final year in Boston... 20-11-2 post all-star break. 22-10-2.5 in April... yeah, he had it long before he went to Minnesota. That's kinda why the Wolves traded KG for him.

[and1GS]

No wai FNQ Gerald Green wuz da centurpiece o dat deel!!11!

[Coxy]

That's kinda why the Wolves traded KG for him.

It was pretty much the entire reason. They got some spareparts as well but I remember McHale saying in a report that he was replacing KG with gun young PF, and he thought it was a good deal.

[Twinkie defense]

Clifford Ray didn't seem to be much help for Patrick O'Bryant. And Dampier was in a contract year, which is the most likely thing that raised his game for one season. Jefferson has good footwork before he ever went to Minnesota, which is one reason McHale wanted him in the first place. But his great footwork doesn't seem to have anyone saying that he is a great player.

My point is that either these big men can play or they can't. You can put Howard together with a great big man coach for two hours a day and he's never going to be a smooth offensive player. Clifford Ray (or whoever) can help refine a good player's game but they're still going to be good players with or without him. And similarly, not even the biggest genius of a big man coach can turn a guy into a player who isn't already a player.

Arguing about the quality of big man coaching is just a distraction for having a lack of good big men.

[and1GS]

at POB..Cliff was gone to Cleveland about a year before POB got to Warriors HQ. Damp started training with Cliff outside of the team right before his contract year...3-5 personal training sessions a week plus team practice probably had more to do with his great play than him waking up and saying "contract yurr? lolz I best start trying lolololol"

[Thugleavy_34]

Arguing about the quality of big man coaching is just a distraction for having a lack of good big men.

Not really. You can be simultaneously concerned with improving your player and coaching personnel. It shouldn't be so much about pointing the finger but rather looking for ways to improve.

[Twinkie defense]

Clifford Ray had POB in Boston. That was supposed to prove how lame Russell Turner was - a successful POB in Boston.

Oops.

[and1GS]

He had POB for 26 games in Boston. There are certain players Cliff looks at and says "wow, this guy just doesn't want to get better" and then he lets them figure it out on their own. Him and KG tried to bring POB around but it was to no avail, he just didn't have the fire.

[Thugleavy_34]

Clifford Ray had POB in Boston. That was supposed to prove how lame Russell Turner was - a successful POB in Boston.

Oops.

Was this a serious retort to my post? How does it address anything I said, at all?

[Twinkie defense]

It doesn't I was talkin' to and1

But working with your players to improve - which is what coaching is - isn't the same as firing your coach and bringing in another. And for me, since there isn't a huge difference between most big man specialist coaches, consistency has more value than change.

In other words: big man can't play, not getting better? Blame the player, not the coach.

[Mylie10]

It doesn't I was talkin' to and1

But working with your players to improve - which is what coaching is - isn't the same as firing your coach and bringing in another. And for me, since there isn't a huge difference between most big man specialist coaches, consistency has more value than change.

In other words: big man can't play, not getting better? Blame the player, not the coach.

Great logic.....Don't worry about getting good coaches...Guys will be who they are regardless.

[Coxy]

Coaching has a massive effect on a young players life, on and off the court. It can mean the difference from a guy making it to college, making it to the pros, being a decent player in the pros, bein a star in the pros and learning how to deal with the pressures of pro sporting life. A good coach is a mentor, not just a guy that tells you what to do on the court. Some players NEED a mentor, others just need a coach a they already have the mental stability built in.

[Sleepy51]

There are a lot of things that have to go right for a player to achieve athletic success. Of course the player's internal drive & commitment are an unwavering requirement. But, there are a lot of driven, committed guys who don't meet their potential. Athletic excellence is a cultivated skill, not a gift. Skill development at the highest level requires mentorship, guidance and a level of detail instruction beyond what a player can just "pick up on their own." Practicing wrong, or practicing the wrong things does not lead to success, no matter how committed, determined, or hard working. Coaches have to teach players how to practice the right things the right way. Work ethic, attention to detail, even Sport IQ is at some level learned behavior.

Every serious coach knows that they bear a level of responsibility for cultivating and developing special talents. Every serious coach also knows that being human and fallible that we will fail with some of these talents. GOOD serious coaches own that responsibility for their successes or failures and are willing to learn from the experiences. Bad coaches are the ones who have decided that they have nothing left to learn.

[Coxy]

There are a lot of things that have to go right for a player to achieve athletic success. Of course the player's internal drive & commitment are an unwavering requirement. But, there are a lot of driven, committed guys who don't meet their potential. Athletic excellence is a cultivated skill, not a gift. Skill development at the highest level requires mentorship, guidance and a level of detail instruction beyond what a player can just "pick up on their own." Practicing wrong, or practicing the wrong things does not lead to success, no matter how committed, determined, or hard working. Coaches have to teach players how to practice the right things the right way. Work ethic, attention to detail, even Sport IQ is at some level learned behavior.

Every serious coach knows that they bear a level of responsibility for cultivating and developing special talents. Every serious coach also knows that being human and fallible that we will fail with some of these talents. GOOD serious coaches own that responsibility for their successes or failures and are willing to learn from the experiences. Bad coaches are the ones who have decided that they have nothing left to learn.

Bad coaches are also the ones that don't take ownership of this philosophy. If a coach can't teach a huge talent how to reach his potential, then that's on him as much as it is on the player in my opinion.

Some huge talents are idiots, granted, but the majority of them need the guidance and personal attention of a good mentor to succeed. That is what a head coach is paid to do.

Also, I miss the Jeremy Lin thread already......lol

[Chris Cohan]

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_ ... -is-oxygen