I bet Zeke pushed for Jennings....

[basaglia]

And there it is...this is Knick fandom 2010. You guys hate Isiah so much that you will hype a PG who had 4 years to prove he was any good on an expansion team and was weak as hell. NO ONE wanted him...and then the Knicks came along. What's that tell you?

I wish a bunch of you would follow up with some nonsense about Felt-on being better than Jennings. Matter of fact, I'm gonna keep upping that subject all season long...Felt-on vs. Jennings...all because this guy spat out that garbage.

I think that Jennings is more talented than Felton and has more potential, but I don't understand why we are even comparing the two. Our decision to pass on Jennings last summer had nothing to do with Felton.

I do agree that not drafting Jennings was a mistake -- one that several other GMs made as well.

But unlike Isiah passing on Rondo--with Nate and Marbury already in the stable--the Knicks needed a PG REALLY bad.

And you know what KILLS me about the retro-hate on Zeke? Take the Rondo thing. No one was upset he didn't draft Rondo. They were upset he didn't draft MARCUS WILLIAMS. Remember that? So for you to say "Oh a lotta teams passed on Jennings" sounds the same as "Oh, a lotta teams passed on Rondo" (namely the PACERS, with Bird and Walsh in charge), but it never gets reported that way. It's always some joke about how Isiah missed on Rondo and took Balkman. No, Isiah, IN FACT, skipped Marcus Williams and took Balkman.

I'm just keeping the record straight

[hobojoe2131]

And there it is...this is Knick fandom 2010. You guys hate Isiah so much that you will hype a PG who had 4 years to prove he was any good on an expansion team and was weak as hell. NO ONE wanted him...and then the Knicks came along. What's that tell you?

I wish a bunch of you would follow up with some nonsense about Felt-on being better than Jennings. Matter of fact, I'm gonna keep upping that subject all season long...Felt-on vs. Jennings...all because this guy spat out that garbage.

I think that Jennings is more talented than Felton and has more potential, but I don't understand why we are even comparing the two. Our decision to pass on Jennings last summer had nothing to do with Felton.

I do agree that not drafting Jennings was a mistake -- one that several other GMs made as well.

But unlike Isiah passing on Rondo--with Nate and Marbury already in the stable--the Knicks needed a PG REALLY bad.

And you know what KILLS me about the retro-hate on Zeke? Take the Rondo thing. No one was upset he didn't draft Rondo. They were upset he didn't draft MARCUS WILLIAMS. Remember that? So for you to say "Oh a lotta teams passed on Jennings" sounds the same as "Oh, a lotta teams passed on Rondo" (namely the PACERS, with Bird and Walsh in charge), but it never gets reported that way. It's always some joke about how Isiah missed on Rondo and took Balkman. No, Isiah, IN FACT, skipped Marcus Williams and took Balkman.

I'm just keeping the record straight

I fail to see a point there.

[basaglia]

And there it is...this is Knick fandom 2010. You guys hate Isiah so much that you will hype a PG who had 4 years to prove he was any good on an expansion team and was weak as hell. NO ONE wanted him...and then the Knicks came along. What's that tell you?

I wish a bunch of you would follow up with some nonsense about Felt-on being better than Jennings. Matter of fact, I'm gonna keep upping that subject all season long...Felt-on vs. Jennings...all because this guy spat out that garbage.

dude, why so worked up? You're the only one trying to rewrite history. Isiah sucked. Let's at least agree on that. If you really have to be hand-held through all the events of the debacle that was the Isiah era, then I don't know what to say.

Seems like you're just upset that, in your perception, Walsh is getting more leeway than Isiah. If that is the case, it's because Isiah was just that bad and left a situation where fans were going to be more patient as long as there was a direction. You can't take away from what Walsh has done to clean up the mess. If you want clear evidence that he's done a good job, just look at your boy Isiah trying to climb in the ring now. You think he'd be trying to get face time with the Knicks again, if the perception of the organization hasn't improved since he left?

Let's see what the team looks like this season. A lot of things have changed since last year. It just sounds like hate when you're trying to put us in the lottery again just because you're pissed someone replaced your guy.

You seem reasonable. You're cool.

However, I'm not trying to put the Knicks in the lottery. Look at that roster. Not one defender. Walsh is trying to get Jeffries back because he knows it.

[JohnStarksTheDunk]

And we will look at what he's done. Walsh took over a mess that was worse than the one left by Layden, and after two years has rebuilt the roster into one that should compete for a playoff spot and have additional cap space next off-season. Isiah got 5 years. In another 3, if the Knicks are still a mess, with no draft picks, and no cap room (which is what Zeke left Walsh), then Donnie should of course be judged harshly.

Hell NO on the BOLD! Two of our supposedly worst contracts:

Zach went on to have two good years and make the most recent All-Star team, in the West, that.

Crawford went on to win Sixth Man of the Year this recent season for the 3rd seed in the East.

...and they're also better than any player Zeke inherited, except for McDyess but his performance has not rivaled either of these guys.

The roster also had youth: Lee, Nate, Balkman, Mardy, Wilson when Walsh inherited it.

So Hell to the NO! Walsh chose to rebuild to chase LeBron. A twink here/there this team could have competed nearly as well as this team is supposed to this year.

Sorry, Stutter, I should have clarified. I meant in terms of a rebuild, and it's clear you meant in terms of pure talent. Had Isiah done nothing, we would have had a ton of salary coming off the cap that first off-season, and more the following one, and all of our future picks.

You make a good point about Randolph and Crawford, but keep in mind that neither of those guys was ever considered a terrible player -- they were just overpaid. In that regard, I would compare them to the contracts of H20 (who did get injured, which obviously wasn't Isiah's fault) and KVH. Solid players, who just weren't as good as their contracts paid them.

Where Isiah's roster is worse than Layden's is in the Eddy Curry, Jerome James, Jared Jeffries, and Quentin Richardson regard. Two of those players are utterly useless and the other two aren't really any more serviceable than Shandon Anderson or Howard Eisley, whom Isiah inherited.

[basaglia]

I fail to see a point there.

Point is Jennings isn't a Knicks and it's Walsh's fault.

[hobojoe2131]

Look at that roster. Not one defender. Walsh is trying to get Jeffries back because he knows it.

Mozgov, Turiaf, Randolph, Azibuike, Felton and Douglas all call you an idiot.

[hobojoe2131]

I fail to see a point there.

Point is Jennings isn't a Knicks and it's Walsh's fault.

That isn't the point you were making. You were going on a rant about Marcus Williams for some reason. Thank god Jennings isnt a Knick. I dont want players who shoot .371 from the field and commit turnovers like they're going out of style.

[bklynstoops]

I'm just keeping the record straight

i don't know why, but I'm actually trying to understand the point of your rants. So, let's keep this straight--go back to 2008, the knicks are on the verge of a 23-win season, after 39, 33, 23, 33 wins in previous seasons under Isiah. Just settled on an embarrassing sexual harassment suit. You got a HUGE payroll, no cap relief in sight, useless players like curry and james.

So, is your point that you would've NOT fired Isiah? And let him have a few more years to fix this?

[StutterStep]

Sorry, Stutter, I should have clarified. I meant in terms of a rebuild, and it's clear you meant in terms of pure talent. Had Isiah done nothing, we would have had a ton of salary coming off the cap that first off-season, and more the following one, and all of our future picks.

You make a good point about Randolph and Crawford, but keep in mind that neither of those guys was ever considered a terrible player -- they were just overpaid. In that regard, I would compare them to the contracts of H20 (who did get injured, which obviously wasn't Isiah's fault) and KVH. Solid players, who just weren't as good as their contracts paid them.

Where Isiah's roster is worse than Layden's is in the Eddy Curry, Jerome James, Jared Jeffries, and Quentin Richardson regard. Two of those players are utterly useless and the other two aren't really any more serviceable than Shandon Anderson or Howard Eisley, whom Isiah inherited.

Jeffries and QRich are still valued. Hated Curr/James acquisitions so no argument. Plus, I'm not debating that Isiah did a good job as a GM. I'm debating whether the roster he left was worse than what he inherited.

Lampje, Sweetney, Eisley, Ward --- a bunch of players who never played any significant minutes for any team once Isiah traded them. I can't say that about any of the guys Zeke traded or drafted. In the case of draft picks, we're talking Balkman/Mardy -- guys who don't make much money and never got enough playing time.

Isiah couldn't do nothing, as in a rebuild. Dolan wanted playoffs. That was stated in the press conference. Dolan does not understand the purpose of a rebuild. The only way Walsh sold it was that we would get LeBron.

[basaglia]

Look at that roster. Not one defender. Walsh is trying to get Jeffries back because he knows it.

Mozgov, Turiaf, Randolph, Azibuike, Felton and Douglas all call you an idiot.

You're just throwing out names and hoping not to get called on how ridiculous they are.

Felt-on a defender? Yeah, that's why Larry Brown loved him so much.

[hobojoe2131]

Look at that roster. Not one defender. Walsh is trying to get Jeffries back because he knows it.

Mozgov, Turiaf, Randolph, Azibuike, Felton and Douglas all call you an idiot.

You're just throwing out names and hoping not to get called on how ridiculous they are.

Felt-on a defender? Yeah, that's why Larry Brown loved him so much.

Raymond Felton MPG:

30.1
36.3
37.6
37.6
33.0
34.9


Guess again?

[JohnStarksTheDunk]

Isiah got 5 years. In another 3, if the Knicks are still a mess, with no draft picks, and no cap room (which is what Zeke left Walsh), then Donnie should of course be judged harshly.

Isiah did not get 5 years... You know that so no need to debate this.

You're right, I meant that as a rough ballpark number. He got four and a half.

2003-2004
2004-2005
2005-2006
2006-2007
2007-2008

He had four off-seasons and five trade deadlines. So far Walsh is finishing up his third off-season. So I'm willing to give him this year, and then the next (where we have more cap room coming this summer) and see if his teams are still winning 20-30 games like Zeke's.

The Knicks do not control their next two draft picks, so this coming season and off-season is going to be major. This team should/must make the playoffs to avoid another lottery pick gone, and we need to be clear about our goal in the summer or during the season for S/T regarding the Curry contract slot.

I completely agree with you, except for the part about being clear about our goal with Curry (though I may be misunderstanding what you mean here). It's obvious we aren't going to play him, so it seems clear enough that we will see what we can do with his contract during the season, and if that doesn't work out, he comes off the cap and we have room.

[nyqua11]

Look at that roster. Not one defender. Walsh is trying to get Jeffries back because he knows it.

Mozgov, Turiaf, Randolph, Azibuike, Felton and Douglas all call you an idiot.

Mozgov can block shots, but his help defense and defensive IQ is pretty poor.

[StutterStep]

I dont want players who shoot .371 from the field and commit turnovers like they're going out of style.

I know what you're trying to say but you really should look at Felton's rookie year. I like Felton but his numbers are very much comparable to Jennings at that stage of their careers. The FG% for Jennings is a bit skewed because he took nearly 5 3pters a game. <just saying>

[NikeFoamposites]

I fail to see a point there.

Point is Jennings isn't a Knicks and it's Walsh's fault.

you speak like jennings just put up 30 8 and 8 in his rookie year on his way to carrying his team to the ECF.

get over it. every GM makes draft day mistakes. move on.

[hobojoe2131]

Look at that roster. Not one defender. Walsh is trying to get Jeffries back because he knows it.

Mozgov, Turiaf, Randolph, Azibuike, Felton and Douglas all call you an idiot.

Mozgov can block shots, but his help defense and defensive IQ is pretty poor.

We don't really know that yet. Seeing bits and pieces of him in non NBA action is not enough evidence to go one way or another. You're right though, I shouldn't have included him on the list. He's an unknown.

[StutterStep]

I completely agree with you, except for the part about being clear about our goal with Curry (though I may be misunderstanding what you mean here). It's obvious we aren't going to play him, so it seems clear enough that we will see what we can do with his contract during the season, and if that doesn't work out, he comes off the cap and we have room.

I hope we don't play Curry but I worry each day he's on the roster, we're going to make a stupid trade and include Wilson Chandler. If Melo re-signs with Denver, I think we try to trade him at the deadline, and so far I've not liked Walsh's trades.

[birdman113]

Look at that roster. Not one defender. Walsh is trying to get Jeffries back because he knows it.

Mozgov, Turiaf, Randolph, Azibuike, Felton and Douglas all call you an idiot.

Did you just say Randolph, and Felton can play defense?

[hobojoe2131]

I dont want players who shoot .371 from the field and commit turnovers like they're going out of style.

I know what you're trying to say but you really should look at Felton's rookie year. I like Felton but his numbers are very much comparable to Jennings at that stage of their careers. The FG% for Jennings is a bit skewed because he took nearly 5 a game. <just saying>

The fact that he took 5 3's per game isn't a good thing though. It just shows that he has poor shot selection and can't attack the rim. Same thing applies for Gallo. His FG% was down because he chucked 3's and couldnt attack the rim. The difference is Gallo is a smart player while Jennings is a player who just looks for the flashy and spectacular, and Gallo became more and more aggressive while the season went on while Jennings just continued to bomb away from deep.

[hobojoe2131]

Look at that roster. Not one defender. Walsh is trying to get Jeffries back because he knows it.

Mozgov, Turiaf, Randolph, Azibuike, Felton and Douglas all call you an idiot.

Did you just say Randolph, and Felton can play defense?

You have something to say about that?