I bet Zeke pushed for Jennings....

[GONYK]

Donnie Walsh has not been perfect, but he has been outstandingly solid. He's shown patience and and actual strategy that he adheres to. I don't see where the argument is in this.

[basaglia]

Donnie Walsh has not been perfect, but he has been outstandingly solid. He's shown patience and and actual strategy that he adheres to. I don't see where the argument is in this.

Great. Now, turn it into WINS. Otherwise, your argument is "He's not Isiah" which is my entire problem with this board and NYC media giving him a pass for his bad moves.

[boomann21]

Lol....you guys have zekeitis. I mean it's been two years and Isiah is still in the back of a lot of you guys minds. Isiah had nothing to do with Duhon, Roberson, Jordan Hill and Al Harrington who was not even playing when Walsh traded for him. Those were all questionable calls and so was hiring D'antoni to coach. Let's discuss the failure to land any of the big name free agents. Was that Zeke's fault also? Good Lord. I remember yelling about the $100 million contract that Allan Houston had received during a lot of Isiah's tenure here and now I see that it's useless to complain about the past guys dealings because that $hit is in the past. Let's talk about the Knicks of today.

[Stuckey-man]

I'll say it AGAIN: sooner or later, Walsh's transactions are going to have to be JUDGED on their on merit and not in relation to Isiah.

100% agreed.

Walsh has made some weak picks and bad trades and, for the time being, he's been insulated from actual analysis of those moves because he's not Isiah. They are BAD MOVES.

I think you're way off on this one. You just stated (above) a pretty solid fact.

But it's when you inject your own subjective opinion about Walsh's moves that you go off the rails.

Gallinari's ceiling is yet to be determined and given he's played roughly 1.25 NBA seasons, I think it fair that the jury is still out.

Stoudemire has yet to play a game as a Knick.

Ditto for Felton.

Ditto for Randolph, Azubuike, and Turiaf...

... and Mozgov and Fields and Jordan and Rautins and Mason Jr.

Douglas is coming off his rookie year.

Walker is an unknown quantity.

I think Walsh deserves this year to fairly judge his progress.

I think that has NOTHING to do with Isiah Thomas and Isiah Thomas' track record has NOTHING to do with Walsh.

Do YOU disagree with either of those last three statements?

[GONYK]

Donnie Walsh has not been perfect, but he has been outstandingly solid. He's shown patience and and actual strategy that he adheres to. I don't see where the argument is in this.

Great. Now, turn it into WINS. Otherwise, your argument is "He's not Isiah" which is my entire problem with this board and NYC media giving him a pass for his bad moves.

Agreed. I think there was a gentleman's agreement though that Donnie gets a pass for these first 2 years, because he clearly stated that our plan was to get as far under the cap as possible for the summer of 2010. Now that the summer has come and gone, we HAVE to make the playoffs this year to justify our patience and understanding.

[Stuckey-man]

Oh, he's responsible for ALL of them.

I just hope you can be as bottomline as me this time next year. But, honestly, I'd prefer if you try to defend Walsh's deals

And this is where you display your agenda. You're LOST without the Thomas/Walsh compare and contrast. So much so you HOPE anyone who disagrees with you falls into the pattern you want to respond to.

I think Walsh deserves this year. If the Knicks progress significantly (which I'd qualify as .500/postseason) then he deserves another, and so on.

If all you want to do is cherrypick and argue with people you perceive as Walsh apologists regardless of what happens this season, then please put up a sign so the rest of us can avoid you.

[basaglia]

I'll say it AGAIN: sooner or later, Walsh's transactions are going to have to be JUDGED on their on merit and not in relation to Isiah.

100% agreed.

Walsh has made some weak picks and bad trades and, for the time being, he's been insulated from actual analysis of those moves because he's not Isiah. They are BAD MOVES.

I think you're way off on this one. You just stated (above) a pretty solid fact.

But it's when you inject your own subjective opinion about Walsh's moves that you go off the rails.

Gallinari's ceiling is yet to be determined and given he's played roughly 1.25 NBA seasons, I think it fair that the jury is still out.

Stoudemire has yet to play a game as a Knick.

Ditto for Felton.

Ditto for Randolph, Azubuike, and Turiaf...

... and Mozgov and Fields and Jordan and Rautins and Mason Jr.

Douglas is coming off his rookie year.

Walker is an unknown quantity.

I think Walsh deserves this year to fairly judge his progress.

I think that has NOTHING to do with Isiah Thomas and Isiah Thomas' track record has NOTHING to do with Walsh.

Do YOU disagree with either of those last three statements?

Look, if you wanna hide behind the "we don't that for a fact right now" argument. You go right ahead. But, people knew Jerome James was overpaid and had a right to say so before he played a single game. The same applies to Felt-on.

Bill Walker? really? You're gonna wait on him? Cool.

Turiaf and Kaz? MAN, HOW LONG DO PEOPLE GET UNDER WALSH?

cool., there's a CHANCE Balkman will become a very good role player one day. Hey, I can wait.

[JohnStarksTheDunk]

I remember it ALL. Zeke's entire tenure is just comedy...from his screwups to fans and media trying to blame him for things that happened BEFORE him and AFTER him.

Eddy Curry
Stephon Marbury
Steve Francis
Jerome James
5 head coaches
Channing Frye

Which of these was Isiah Thomas not ultimately responsible for?

Oh, he's responsible for ALL of them.

I just hope you can be as bottomline as me this time next year. But, honestly, I'd prefer if you try to defend Walsh's deals

When Amare knee acts up, stuff like "Well, who knew?" won't get it done with me.
When Felt-on plays like...himself, stuff like "At least it's only two years" won't get it done.

Ok, so you're calling everyone out for doing something that they haven't even done yet?

The majority of the fans on these boards plan on judging Walsh at this time next year, relax. I will personally be very hard on him if we miss the playoffs, especially with the potential for our pick to be swapped with Houston. Maybe it's fair to wait and see what happens this season though? And then after next summer, when we'll have additional cap room, and Walsh will have completed the same number of off-seasons that Isiah had.

[stuporman]

No, it's all part of an anti-Zeke campaign that started to go viral in early 2006. the very MOMENT David Lee started showing signs of being a good player, the Zeke-hating members of the media tried to discredit that pick. Do you remember what was said when Lee was drafted? Not good things. Fans and media mentioned Turiaf and Ellis...said he shoulda taken a chance on Ellis. Oh, man, Ellis became a HUGE cause for the Zeke-haters a couple of years ago when he was putting up 30 shots a game and scoring 25 a night.

I remember it ALL. Zeke's entire tenure is just comedy...from his screwups to fans and media trying to blame him for things that happened BEFORE him and AFTER him.

You can't say I was one of them. I was one of Lee's biggest supporters right from his rookie season. Whenever fans would include him in trades as a throw in and saying that all he will ever be is a role player, hustle player back up, I'd defend him. Saying he is a very skilled role player and that his ceiling isn't just a back up, it's a very good rotational player even solid starter. I was typically laughed at. Even though I got tired of his bad defense, him not blocking anything other than his team mates from rebounds, literally turning his back on driving players to rebound instead of defend, not caring about anything that didn't add to his stats so he could get more money and his increased diva attitude complaining to the refs after every play.

Of course little did I know that D' would turn him into what he became statistically allowing Walsh to leverage that into the trade he got for a player supposedly one foot out the door and basically lost for nothing according to fans for the last two years he was here. I never liked Ellis. I'm not a fan of undersized shooting guards who volume chuck and don't play defense.

You still like to clip my post to avoid the Granger point. Granger was who I wanted in that draft even though he might have been drafted kinda high by the Knicks where they picked from. I liked Bynum, too, but was kind of wary of his mental make up. He landed in the perfect spot for him in LA he might not have done as well if he wound up in the circus of NY.

Same thing could be said about Jennings. I kind of liked him but was wary about his mental make up. He might not have done as well in NY as he wound up doing in Mil. But he can hardly be crowned anything yet. Even Frye had a good rookie year and where is he now? Let's not get ahead of ourselves. If Jennings wouldn't have missed the camp, failed to produce in Italy and get outplayed in workouts here shooting badly in them, Walsh and D' might not passed on him. How is someone supposed to see nothing promising in his play from his production, him missing camp, mouthing off every chance he can, getting outplayed in workouts, shooting badly in them, then say 'Aw what hell let's take him anyway'. If he had done well in those areas the Knicks wouldn't have had him anyway, cause he wouldn't have been around for them to pick and likely wound up with Curry because of it.


Granger? Or avoidance?

You are an Isiah nutrider from back in the day who got banned!!! I knew it. Yes, Isiah got a bad rap but it was his own doing. He might have been handed a bad roster but he made the whole situation worse. His bad signings, bad trades, bad coaching choices and bad behavior while here. How can you defend the guy? He was a disaster even if you weed out the supposed misplaced criticism on things not from his tenure. There was plenty he did that is justifiably placed in him.

Avoidance much???

[seren]

Zeke's entire tenure is just comedy.

It may be considered as a tragedy as well. Let's call it tragicomedy.

[stuporman]

The problem with you point, and try to follow me here, is you're trying to distill the track record of Isiah Thomas by filtering this record through media perception, which is completely irrelevant.
.

Which is different than trying to distill Walsh's track record by filtering it through the perception of Isiah Thomas?

I'll say it AGAIN: sooner or later, Walsh's transactions are going to have to be JUDGED on their on merit and not in relation to Isiah.

Walsh has made some weak picks and bad trades and, for the time being, he's been insulated from actual analysis of those moves because he's not Isiah. They are BAD MOVES.

It is true after many years and two GMs worth of horrid moves Walsh could have done nothing and looked great, yes, his tenure isn't perfect but please it's not even remotely as bad as Isiah's, admit it or be cast into the pit of Isiah nutriders of days gone by.

[ollin]

Zeke's entire tenure is just comedy.

It may be considered as a tragedy as well. Let's call it tragicomedy.

More like a movie you thought that at some point would become good instead leave disgusted of.

[Stuckey-man]

Look, if you wanna hide behind the "we don't that for a fact right now" argument. You go right ahead.

As someone who routinely avoids answering direct questions, you might want to think twice about statements like this.

But, people knew Jerome James was overpaid and had a right to say so before he played a single game. The same applies to Felt-on.

I'll ask again, are you capable of having a discussion of the current Knicks without having on foot stuck in the past?

But let's be direct.

GM shoud be evaluated by results. What team record do the NY Knicks have to achieve in order for you to at least give an incomplete grade for this overall tenure?

if the Knicks win 50 will you still be fixated on micro-analysis like Felton is overpaid?

I'm genuinely not trying to corner you. I'm just asking you to set and state your criteria so we can objectively evaluable this at year's end.

What do the Knicks have to do for you to judge this year a success with the future to be determined?

It's a fair and direct question you should have NO problem answering.

[basaglia]

Granger? Or avoidance?

You are an Isiah nutrider from back in the day who got banned!!! I knew it. Yes, Isiah got a bad rap but it was his own doing. He might have been handed a bad roster but he made the whole situation worse. His bad signings, bad trades, bad coaching choices and bad behavior while here. How can you defend the guy? He was a disaster even if you weed out the supposed misplaced criticism on things not from his tenure. There was plenty he did that is justifiably placed in him.

Avoidance much???

First off, there's so many haters on this board to respond to, I honestly didn't see your point about Granger.

I AGREE. Granger is a beast and Isiah should have taken a look at him. But, like Lee, he's not a franchise changer and the Pacers are sorry WITH him.

I defend Isiah because no one wants to admit just how bad the Knicks were before he got there. They Knicks had a 100 mil roster of old men and scrubs...and an critically-injured star. That was his starting point. AND he was tasked with making the playoffs ASAP. And for people to actually say Walsh had it worse than Isiah coming in? It's outrageous. Walsh had a chance to REBUILD. If he FAILS - and it's looking bad - he's done WORSE than Isiah, in my honest opinion.

[basaglia]

I'll ask again, are you capable of having a discussion of the current Knicks without having on foot stuck in the past?

I'm gonna ignore the rest of your entire post just because I happened to catch that doozy of a line first.

Can YOU or anyone else here have a discussion about the current, LOTTERY-BOUND Knicks without blaming Isiah Thomas? I mean, are you serious?

[stuporman]

Donnie Walsh has not been perfect, but he has been outstandingly solid. He's shown patience and and actual strategy that he adheres to. I don't see where the argument is in this.

Great. Now, turn it into WINS. Otherwise, your argument is "He's not Isiah" which is my entire problem with this board and NYC media giving him a pass for his bad moves.

Compared to four seasons of Isiah franchise 'building', Walsh's teams have a better seasonal win average in his two years of him trying to dismantle the house....er.... or should I say hovel Isiah built. Just based on wins Walsh is better when he had his hands tied by a roster, he wasn't even trying to build but recover and had a tight checkbook while Isiah had an open checkbook and run of the place.

I even gave Isiah the benefit of the doubt and not blaming him for a couple seasons cause of the roster he inherited.

[haterade]

Great. Now, turn it into WINS. Otherwise, your argument is "He's not Isiah" which is my entire problem with this board and NYC media giving him a pass for his bad moves.

Here are the moves Donnie made since becoming President/GM of the Knicks. A lot of it had to do with cleaning up the mess that was already here.

Draft 2008
Selected forward Danilo Gallinari (6th overall pick).

July 9 2008
Signed guard Chris Duhon.

July 24 2008
Signed guard Anthony Roberson.

July 28 2008
Traded forward Renaldo Balkman and cash considerations to the Denver Nuggets for guard Taurean Green, forward Bobby Jones and a 2010 second-round draft pick.

August 29 2008
Traded the draft rights to center Frederic Weis to the Houston Rockets for forward Patrick Ewing Jr.

November 21 2008
Traded guard Jamal Crawford to the Golden State Warriors for forward Al Harrington; traded guard Mardy Collins and forward Zach Randolph to the Los Angeles Clippers for guard Cuttino Mobley and forward Tim Thomas.

February 19 2009
Traded guard Anthony Roberson, forward Tim Thomas and center Jerome James to the Chicago Bulls for guard Larry Hughes; traded forward Malik Rose and cash to the Oklahoma City Thunder for forward Chris Wilcox.

June 25 2009
Traded guard Quentin Richardson and cash to the Memphis Grizzlies for center Darko Milicic.

Draft 2009
Selected forward Jordan Hill (8th overall pick). Traded a 2011 second-round pick and cash to the Los Angeles Lakers for the draft rights to guard Toney Douglas.

February 17 2010
Traded center Darko Milicic and cash to the Minnesota Timberwolves for forward Brian Cardinal.

February 18 2010
Traded guards Nate Robinson
and Marcus Landry to the Boston Celtics for guards Eddie House and JR Giddens, forward Bill Walker and a future conditional second-round pick; traded forwards Jared Jeffries and Jordan Hill, a protected 2012 first-round pick and the right to exchange first-round picks in 2011 to the Houston Rockets for guard Tracy McGrady; traded guard Larry Hughes to the Sacramento Kings for guard Sergio Rodriguez; waived forward Brian Cardinal.

April 2 2010
Signed center Earl Barron to a 10-day contract.

Draft 2010
Selected guard Andy Rautins (38th overall pick) and forward Landry Fields (39th overall pick).

July 8 2010
Traded a trade exception and another consideration to the Phoenix Suns for forward Amare Stoudemire. Traded cash to the Milwaukee Bucks for the draft rights to center Jerome Jordan.

July 9 2010
Signed David Lee and traded him to the Golden State Warriors for guard Kelenna Azubuike and forwards Anthony Randolph and Ronny Turiaf and a 2010 second-round pick.

July 10 2010
Signed guard Raymond Felton.

July 13 2010
Signed center Timofey Mozgov.

August 10 2010
Signed guard Roger Mason.

There were a lot of moves I didn't like them all especially looking back at it now but Donnie's hands were tied. He only gave up a 1st rounder and the ability to switch a 1st rounder since he has been the GM. Isiah has given up at least 4 from what I remember in the 4 1/2 years he's been here. Donnie has been picking up 2way players and good character guys since his term and been avoiding "bad character" players. Isiah seemed to want to bring those types of players in to try and turn them around such as Francis, Marbury, Randolph, and Curry.

[NoStatsGuy]

It doesn't matter though...Walsh'Toni were never looking at Jennings. He came with a reputation of a headcase, many called him Marbury 2.0. Their main objective has been to change the face of the franchise, not being doomed to repeat it. They weren't going to risk the PR if Jennings blew up in their face. Not to mention how they've stated that every move they've made has been with LeBron James in mind. Jennings isn't necessarily the ideal PG next to him.

+1

[Stuckey-man]

Can YOU or anyone else here have a discussion about the current, LOTTERY-BOUND Knicks without blaming Isiah Thomas? I mean, are you serious?

I haven't made a single statement tying the Knicks current fortunes into Isiah Thomas.

Which proves what I argued earlier. You're clearly intent on cherrypicking responses to this one point. You have NOTHING whatsoever to say about Donnie Walsh and the current Knicks.

You're clearly at a loss to respond if it isn't in context to some irrelevant comparison to Isiah Thomas, which demonstrates an agenda.

You were given the opportunity to set you own criteria for Walsh's success or failure but you chose not to because it compromises that agenda, which will be to criticize him and compare him unfavorably to Isiah Thomas regardless of what happens this season.

This is cowardice on your part, plain and simple.

[stuporman]

Look, if you wanna hide behind the "we don't that for a fact right now" argument. You go right ahead. But, people knew Jerome James was overpaid and had a right to say so before he played a single game. The same applies to Felt-on.

Bill Walker? really? You're gonna wait on him? Cool.

Turiaf and Kaz? MAN, HOW LONG DO PEOPLE GET UNDER WALSH?

cool., there's a CHANCE Balkman will become a very good role player one day. Hey, I can wait.

There's no comparison between James and Felton. Felton is a starter who has missed what a dozen games in his whole career, averaged 14/7 in a slow offense, defends and lead his team to the playoffs, the first time in franchise history as the starting PG. He gets signed for a $7.5mil per year for 2 years and he's 26. When the Knicks have no starting PG.

James was a 30 year old 16mpg player who averaged 5/3 in his contract year and got $6mil per over 5 years..... this was after Isiah drafts a center in Frye then chases and overpays in trade for Curry.

Really? You see exactly the same situation? That's bad analysis man... very, very bad. Not even remotely close comparison.