Other than ex[erience, what do the Hawks have over us?

[HEZI]

So Bibby wasn't a PG on the Kings and Grizzlies?

Vlade and CWebb were more PG's than Bibby. Those guys made plays for others, not Bibby. Son do you even know what the role of a PG is? If you did you wouldnt be here talking about how Bibby is more PG than Douglas. But I already know that your clueless so this is moot.

Better than any guard on the Knicks, which adds to the "Hawks are better" argument.

So because Joe Johnson is better than any Knick guard, the Hawks are better? Right, gotcha, and the fact that we have a better PF and PG and bench and coach doesnt mean squat, right?

So a guy who played 96 games in 2 years and averaged 19.6 minutes a game is just as good as Josh Smith?.

YUP!

Almost identical? What? Horford was the BEST in defensive PPP and a much better rebounder. Nice job pointing out Amare's offense again, I already said he's better on offense. Just keep ignoring Horford's advantage on defense and the boards.

You already tried to prove this and you posted almost identical numbers, just stop embarrasing yourself. Hortford gets a slight advantage on defense but hes not no lockdown defender kid, just stop embarassing yourself more and more.

Anthony Randolph? He can't shoot jumpers.
Douglas is a poor man's Crawford at best since he can't get to the line.
Buike? LOL rly?
Mason Jr. shoots threes and......shoots more threes. So no, they can't create their own shot and score from anywhere like Crawford.

Randolph can score, Douglas can score, Buke can score, Mason Jr. can score. These guys are all scorers, doesnt matter how they compare to Crawford in terms of how they score, the point is they get it done. Theres nobody other than Mason Jr. that I would give up in exchange for Crawford, its that simple. You can cry and whine about that all you want, but it wont change anything.

A good role player to have as your 8th man off the bench. Comparing Bill Walker to him is a joke.

Actually the only joke I see here is you

Being young =/= You still have tons of room to grow. Players usually make a jump in their third year. Chandler just put up the same numbers as last year and didn't improve his jumpshooting. Some players peak when they're 23.

Yeah, like Marvin Williams, right?

Here's the numbers:

Chandler/Average SG
10> feet..: 38.5/43.8 (On 1.5 attempts per game)
10-15 feet: 43.3/40.7 (On .9 attempts per game)
16-23 feet: 38.0/39.7 (On 3.5 attempts per game)

So below average from inside 10 feet, above average from 10-15, below average from 16-23. Seems pretty average overall.

So in other words, you basically admit hes above average from midrange, but in the previous post you said he was below average from there. So which is it? You wana make up your mind

Except he's not even close as an offensive player, but sure give Buike a ton of credit for wearing a Knicks jersey.

And Jamal is not even close as a defensive player. Yup I give credit to the guy who actually plays defense and can score in bunches just like Jamal.

[Manhattan Project]

The Hawks have more proven talent, bottom line. They have proved they can play with each other and off each other. They have improving players in Horford and Smith, which are two borderline All-Stars. They still have Joe Johnson, for all his falls in the playoffs is still a fantastic player. The Knicks are an improving team with a lot of questions. We need a lot of things going right to make this close where as the Hawks are more likely to be better.

[StutterStep]

If you look at the best player on each team I would say Joe vs. Amare is a tie. So when you look at the rest of the team as a whole, I think Atlanta has a little more talent.
Gallo vs. Horford= Horford wins on slight edge
Randolph vs. Smith= Smith wins by slight edge
Chandler vs. Crawford= Crawford wins slightly
Felton vs. Bibby/Williams= Felton

Interesting way to do analysis but that seems way too subjective. Hold players to the positions they play(ed) and go from there.

To me, Josh Smith is Atlanta's best player. It all falls apart without him defensively which would show how poor of a defender guys like Bibby, Crawford and (even) Joe Johnson really is. Joe put up a very inefficient 21pts last year. He's just not the player I used to like when they were an upcoming team.

[nyqua11]

Vlade and CWebb were more PG's than Bibby. Those guys made plays for others, not Bibby. Son do you even know what the role of a PG is? If you did you wouldnt be here talking about how Bibby is more PG than Douglas. But I already know that your clueless so this is moot.

k bro

So because Joe Johnson is better than any Knick guard, the Hawks are better? Right, gotcha, and the fact that we have a better PF and PG and bench and coach doesnt mean squat, right?

It helps add to the argument they are. lern2read

YUP!

LOL

You already tried to prove this and you posted almost identical numbers, just stop embarrasing yourself. Hortford gets a slight advantage on defense but hes not no lockdown defender kid, just stop embarassing yourself more and more.

How were they "near identical"? Horford was so much better than the second best PF/C defender. THAT DEFENDER IS NOT AMARE. Horford is a much better rebounder. Not that hard to put those things together, but just keep saying the numbers are "almost identical".

Randolph can score, Douglas can score, Buke can score, Mason Jr. can score. These guys are all scorers, doesnt matter how they compare to Crawford in terms of how they score, the point is they get it done. Theres nobody other than Mason Jr. that I would give up in exchange for Crawford, its that simple. You can cry and whine about that all you want, but it wont change anything.

So you admit they can't score in a variety of ways like Crawford. Thanks.

Actually the only joke I see here is you

Excellent job, just avoid the topic and attack the user. Well done.

Yeah, like Marvin Williams, right?

Nice job avoiding the argument again. Just bring up another player. A+ effort.

So in other words, you basically admit hes above average from midrange, but in the previous post you said he was below average from there. So which is it? You wana make up your mind

Um.....From between the rim and the three point line, he's pretty average looking at those numbers. Where did I say he's above average in my last post?

And Jamal is not even close as a defensive player. Yup I give credit to the guy who actually plays defense and can score in bunches just like Jamal.

Score in bunches? LOL. Crawford has the big advantage on him on offense, Buike has the advantage on defense. Buike can't score like Crawford

[StutterStep]

The Gallo v. Horford matchup was tough for me because I don't think Horford is that good, but the fact that he rebounds and defends as well as he does along with being able to put the ball in the basket a little, I'll take Horford for now because he was more consistent last year than Gallo, even though I think Gallo has a bigger upside and could emerge as a star this season.

Upside aside, I think Horford is overrated and always thought Noah hid his deficiencies on defense, much like how Josh Smith is doing for him. This year Horford is supposedly going to play his natural position of PF. I'm not sure what that means -- whether he comes off the bench or Josh gets traded or slid to SF...who knows.

[OooSplendiforous]

I made this same thread a few months ago stating that if we took Joe Johnson off the Hawks and put him here, we'd have finished just as well as they did. Ofcourse nobody listens to the splendid man at first, but I'm always right in the end.

Hawks are overrated garbage. That team is going nowhereeeeeeeeeeeeeeee besides 1st round exits for the next few years.

[NoLayupRule]

what a lot of people dont realize is that team that play together and succeed together get better

roster overhauls are fun for the summer but once the season starts its starting anew

teams like Utah, SA and Dallas who bring back most of the main pieces are a huge step ahead of the others


now Atl is moving their C to PF and has a new coach. there will be some new thinking and adjustments but overall that familiarity will serve them well


we need to develop chemistry and learn what we can expect from players. we need to develop guys because we are now one of the youngest teams in the nba. luckily our main guys - Amare, Felton, Gallo and Chandler - are either familiar with D'Antoni or well bread, basketball-wise. The others will take longer to fit in

[thehandler3]

If you look at the best player on each team I would say Joe vs. Amare is a tie. So when you look at the rest of the team as a whole, I think Atlanta has a little more talent.
Gallo vs. Horford= Horford wins on slight edge
Randolph vs. Smith= Smith wins by slight edge
Chandler vs. Crawford= Crawford wins slightly
Felton vs. Bibby/Williams= Felton

Interesting way to do analysis but that seems way too subjective. Hold players to the positions they play(ed) and go from there.

To me, Josh Smith is Atlanta's best player. It all falls apart without him defensively which would show how poor of a defender guys like Bibby, Crawford and (even) Joe Johnson really is. Joe put up a very inefficient 21pts last year. He's just not the player I used to like when they were an upcoming team.

Fair, I did it that way because sometimes I think matching guys up by position could be misleading in some cases so I like to matchup talent top to bottom. I dont think Josh is Atlanta's best player because he's too much of an uneven personality and has a very small basketball IQ, that player could never be deemed the best player on my team. He also is limited in terms of shooting, and in ball-handling (specfically driving right). I agree Joe has taken a step back but he's still the go-to guy he demands a lot of double teams (especially before they got Crawford) and he's a good passer along with being a solid scorer.

But getting back to the original point, you can't over look experience when comparing the two teams. Atlanta knows how finish games, they have defined roles, whereas the Knicks don't even have a solid starting 5 as of right now. I give Atlanta the edge but I think this could be the end of the road for them in terms of being a threat in the playoffs.

[Fury]

They're overrated. We beat them when we sucked. Now we'll beat them when we're good.

[thehandler3]

The Gallo v. Horford matchup was tough for me because I don't think Horford is that good, but the fact that he rebounds and defends as well as he does along with being able to put the ball in the basket a little, I'll take Horford for now because he was more consistent last year than Gallo, even though I think Gallo has a bigger upside and could emerge as a star this season.

Upside aside, I think Horford is overrated and always thought Noah hid his deficiencies on defense, much like how Josh Smith is doing for him. This year Horford is supposedly going to play his natural position of PF. I'm not sure what that means -- whether he comes off the bench or Josh gets traded or slid to SF...who knows.

I absolutely agree that Horford is overrated, I've never liked him that much, I dont think he has a big upside at all. I see him as a good not great player. But I dont think he's overrated defensively, hes a pretty good shotblocker, and he's a very good post defender (something that gets overlooked by many when talking about bigs playing D) so for that I give him an advantage over Gallo. Now Gallo is better offensively, but because Horford's a big man that shoots a high percentage and doesn't dominate the ball, I cant give Gallo a huge edge on offense. I kind of feel like I am talking out of both sides of my mouth when talking about Horford, because I think he's overrated for what people think what can be and what will become rather than what he is which is a third option 15 point scorer, But his defense and rebounding I can't debate and good big men are hard to come by nowadays

[StutterStep]

Fair, I did it that way because sometimes I think matching guys up by position could be misleading in some cases so I like to matchup talent top to bottom. I dont think Josh is Atlanta's best player because he's too much of an uneven personality and has a very small basketball IQ, that player could never be deemed the best player on my team. He also is limited in terms of shooting, and in ball-handling (specfically driving right). agree Joe has taken a step back but he's still the go-to guy he demands a lot of double teams (especially before they got Crawford) and he's a good passer along with being a solid scorer.

But getting back to the original point, you can't over look experience when comparing the two teams. Atlanta knows how finish games, they have defined roles, whereas the Knicks don't even have a solid starting 5 as of right now. I give Atlanta the edge but I think this could be the end of the road for them in terms of being a threat in the playoffs.

Josh has a very good midrange jumper. His offensive numbers used to suffer because he shot too many 3pters but he stopped doing so last year. I don't agree with the IQ thing. I see it as being an immature young player (coming out of HS) who did not know how to listen to coaching. That has changed, and so has my opinion of him. I love what he does for them defensively and if you take that away from them, everything falls apart.

Joe is a very good player and hopefully now that he got his contract he can go back to playing teamball -- pass more and get to the line, while sacrificing a shot per game.

[StutterStep]

I absolutely agree that Horford is overrated, I've never liked him that much, I dont think he has a big upside at all. I see him as a good not great player. But I dont think he's overrated defensively, hes a pretty good shotblocker, and he's a very good post defender (something that gets overlooked by many when talking about bigs playing D) so for that I give him an advantage over Gallo. Now Gallo is better offensively, but because Horford's a big man that shoots a high percentage and doesn't dominate the ball, I cant give Gallo a huge edge on offense. I kind of feel like I am talking out of both sides of my mouth when talking about Horford, because I think he's overrated for what people think what can be and what will become rather than what he is which is a third option 15 point scorer, But his defense and rebounding I can't debate and good big men are hard to come by nowadays

+1

I clearly understand what you're saying and this is exactly where I'm at with him. That's why even though I'm not a big Gallo fan, I would take that type of tweener who could go out and drop 20 every other night while playing decent defense over one who does things I could pay the MLE for. The sad thing is Horford's going to get 10mil-plus next summer. I just hope it's not from us.

[thehandler3]

Fair, I did it that way because sometimes I think matching guys up by position could be misleading in some cases so I like to matchup talent top to bottom. I dont think Josh is Atlanta's best player because he's too much of an uneven personality and has a very small basketball IQ, that player could never be deemed the best player on my team. He also is limited in terms of shooting, and in ball-handling (specfically driving right). agree Joe has taken a step back but he's still the go-to guy he demands a lot of double teams (especially before they got Crawford) and he's a good passer along with being a solid scorer.

But getting back to the original point, you can't over look experience when comparing the two teams. Atlanta knows how finish games, they have defined roles, whereas the Knicks don't even have a solid starting 5 as of right now. I give Atlanta the edge but I think this could be the end of the road for them in terms of being a threat in the playoffs.

Josh has a very good midrange jumper. His offensive numbers used to suffer because he shot too many 3pters but he stopped doing so last year. I don't agree with the IQ thing. I see it as being an immature young player (coming out of HS) who did not know how to listen to coaching. That has changed, and so has my opinion of him. I love what he does for them defensively and if you take that away from them, everything falls apart.

Joe is a very good player and hopefully now that he got his contract he can go back to playing teamball -- pass more and get to the line, while sacrificing a shot per game.

Okay, we'll agree to disagree interms of his IQ, defensively i think his IQ is pretty high but offensively not so much, he takes better shots he still takes some bad ones. He also doesn't know how to control his emotions and he gave Mike Woodson ZERO respect during his tenure as coach. Just watching him in a huddle or watching Woodson try to tell him something and Josh just ignore him or walk right past him was not a good thing to see for me. I think saying his midrange jumper is "very" good is a litte bit of a stretch, I'd say its good to about 15-18, after that his numbers drop considerably. I think a team's best player should be able to take over games offensively or carry his team offensively for stretches of games and Josh hasn't shown me that. I dont want to make it sound like I am bashing Josh, I think he's a very talented player but I just wouldnt say he's better than Joe.

[HEZI]

It helps add to the argument they are. lern2read

I know how to read, and your statement made it out that because Johnson is better than any Knicks guard, it means they are better.

How were they "near identical"? Horford was so much better than the second best PF/C defender. THAT DEFENDER IS NOT AMARE. Horford is a much better rebounder. Not that hard to put those things together, but just keep saying the numbers are "almost identical".

How is 1 extra rebound a game much better? You keep saying hes a much better rebounder but the stats clearly go against you. Amare averaged 9 while Horford averaged 10, how, HOW is he a much better rebounder? If you think 1 rebound is much, then ok thats fine, your thinking is backwards anyways so that wouldnt surprise me.

So you admit they can't score in a variety of ways like Crawford. Thanks.

What variety of ways? Crawford only has 3 ways of scoring

1. Launch prayers from the outside

2. Launch fadeaways from inside the line

3. Free throws when lucky to get to the line

He cant finish inside the paint

Excellent job, just avoid the topic and attack the user. Well done.

Your the one who said comparing Mo Evans and Bill Walker was a joke. If you think thats a joke, then the jokes on you, its that simple

Nice job avoiding the argument again. Just bring up another player. A+ effort.

You make stupid arguments, too dumb for me to even talk about with you. You get a F- for effort because you dont make any attempts to make good points, all your points are stupid.

Um.....From between the rim and the three point line, he's pretty average looking at those numbers. Where did I say he's above average in my last post?

So below average from inside 10 feet, above average from 10-15, below average from 16-23. Seems pretty average overall.

Score in bunches? LOL. Crawford has the big advantage on him on offense, Buike has the advantage on defense. Buike can't score like Crawford

Your right, he cant score like Crawford, he does it better and more efficiently.

Career stats

Crawford:

15 PPG 36% FG 35% 3 point

Azabuike:

10 PPG 46% FG 41% 3 point

This is a pretty embarrassing comparison but you brought it upon yourself

[StutterStep]

Okay, we'll agree to disagree interms of his IQ, defensively i think his IQ is pretty high but offensively not so much, he takes better shots he still takes some bad ones. He also doesn't know how to control his emotions and he gave Mike Woodson ZERO respect during his tenure as coach. Just watching him in a huddle or watching Woodson try to tell him something and Josh just ignore him or walk right past him was not a good thing to see for me. I think saying his midrange jumper is "very" good is a litte bit of a stretch, I'd say its good to about 15-18, after that his numbers drop considerably. I think a team's best player should be able to take over games offensively or carry his team offensively for stretches of games and Josh hasn't shown me that. I dont want to make it sound like I am bashing Josh, I think he's a very talented player but I just wouldnt say he's better than Joe.

The bold is very fair and I get where you're coming from. I don't think you're bashing as you are providing good reasons for your evaluation. I got you on the Mike Woodson thing but he made Josh his whipping boy early and Josh wasn't having it. Plus, I think Woodson's offense and use of his personnel sucked.

I think of Josh as their best player because he's the best two way player and the anchor of their defense. He scores 15 a night on just 12 shots. I would love for him to get 15 shots which might give another FTA each night so that might make him a 18pt player, esp. if he improves his FT shooting.

[Dantares]

Dude, Toney Douglas is better than Bibby, just stop embarrassing yourself. You talk about TD being an undersized SG in a convo about Bibby? Wow how ironic is that Bibby doesnt run their offense, Joe Johnson does, Bibby is the definition of undersized SG. Kill yourself if you really think Bibby is better than Douglas.

So Bibby wasn't a PG on the Kings and Grizzlies?

Who said thats terrible. Those are awesome numbers, for a 2nd option, but too bad Johnson is Atlantas 1st.

Better than any guard on the Knicks, which adds to the "Hawks are better" argument.

Uhm WHAT? Is this even a real question? Hell f*ckin yes Randolph is the same calibur, are you even on planet earth right now? Theres nothing that Smith does that Randolph cant, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

So a guy who played 96 games in 2 years and averaged 19.6 minutes a game is just as good as Josh Smith? LOL Joke argument.

Yawn. Your trying to make this statement about how Hortford destroys Amare on defense, but then post numbers that are almost identical . Ok if Hortford "destroys" Amare on defense, what the f*ck would you say Amare does to Hortford on offense? Rapes up the ass without lube and craps on his chest and makes him eat it? I mean seriously?

Almost identical? What? Horford was the BEST in defensive PPP and a much better rebounder. Nice job pointing out Amare's offense again, I already said he's better on offense. Just keep ignoring Horford's advantage on defense and the boards.

Anthony Randolph, Toney Douglas, Azibuke, Mason Jr.

Anthony Randolph? He can't shoot jumpers.
Douglas is a poor man's Crawford at best since he can't get to the line.
Buike? LOL rly?
Mason Jr. shoots threes and......shoots more threes. So no, they can't create their own shot and score from anywhere like Crawford.

And Mo Evans is what? Oh I really want to hear this

A good role player to have as your 8th man off the bench. Comparing Bill Walker to him is a joke.

Uhm, genius, you do realize hes 23 years old, right? Hes not even close to his ceiling, so what do you expect exactly? Once again, I really cant wait to hear this

Being young =/= You still have tons of room to grow. Players usually make a jump in their third year. Chandler just put up the same numbers as last year and didn't improve his jumpshooting. Some players peak when they're 23.

Average midrange shooter for his position? Ok Im done here

Here's the numbers:

Chandler/Average SG
10> feet..: 38.5/43.8 (On 1.5 attempts per game)
10-15 feet: 43.3/40.7 (On .9 attempts per game)
16-23 feet: 38.0/39.7 (On 3.5 attempts per game)

So below average from inside 10 feet, above average from 10-15, below average from 16-23. Seems pretty average overall.

Congrats to Jamal, he can do what Azibuke can do and not play defense, HOORAYYYYYY

Except he's not even close as an offensive player, but sure give Buike a ton of credit for wearing a Knicks jersey.

mid-range game is generally regarded as 12-18 feet.

How can you be a knicks fan and consider Jamal Crawford good? you got to see him up close and personal for over 4 years. He might be the worst player in the league. just think about it, a guy that shoots under 40% every year and takes as many shots as Jamal does is a **** detriment to your team. defensively he is just as horrible. i was so happy when we got rid of him. Last year and the year he had with Larry brown in '06 were complete flukes. He will play 12-13 years in the nba and have only those two good years. Jamal Crawford is an And1 reject loser.

[thehandler3]

I absolutely agree that Horford is overrated, I've never liked him that much, I dont think he has a big upside at all. I see him as a good not great player. But I dont think he's overrated defensively, hes a pretty good shotblocker, and he's a very good post defender (something that gets overlooked by many when talking about bigs playing D) so for that I give him an advantage over Gallo. Now Gallo is better offensively, but because Horford's a big man that shoots a high percentage and doesn't dominate the ball, I cant give Gallo a huge edge on offense. I kind of feel like I am talking out of both sides of my mouth when talking about Horford, because I think he's overrated for what people think what can be and what will become rather than what he is which is a third option 15 point scorer, But his defense and rebounding I can't debate and good big men are hard to come by nowadays

+1

I clearly understand what you're saying and this is exactly where I'm at with him. That's why even though I'm not a big Gallo fan, I would take that type of tweener who could go out and drop 20 every other night while playing decent defense over one who does things I could pay the MLE for. The sad thing is Horford's going to get 10mil-plus next summer. I just hope it's not from us.

Yeah I agree I dont want Al playing for the Knicks, definetly not at $10 mill + for 6 years. I see what your saying in terms of taking Gallo's ability to light it up during the stretch of the season rather than a guy who in essence is pretty ordinary. However I think for this season, I'll take Horford because of his defense (I like his more than you do, but thats fine) and rebounding along with shooting a high clip and being a fairly dependable low post scorer. A lot of it for me hedges on Gallo really. I see Gallo at 18-6-3assists at about 46% from the field which in that case I'd take Horfords 15-10-1.5 blocks at around 55% but if Gallo is up around 20 points or grabs more boards than that would sway me in Gallo's favor, which would then probably put the Knicks ahead in my book

[Vash]

Knicks 4th seed

Knicks are better than every team other than the Magic, Heat and Celts. Th Heat are the weakest of the three.

Knicks are better than Bulls. Felton is better than Rose this true...Gallo is the best player on both teams with the most skill sets, Korver is the best shooter and is a very good player. Amare is better than Boozer. The wildcard is Noah. Does he have upside. I think the Knicks are deeper also. Buth having a center is key.

[thehandler3]

Okay, we'll agree to disagree interms of his IQ, defensively i think his IQ is pretty high but offensively not so much, he takes better shots he still takes some bad ones. He also doesn't know how to control his emotions and he gave Mike Woodson ZERO respect during his tenure as coach. Just watching him in a huddle or watching Woodson try to tell him something and Josh just ignore him or walk right past him was not a good thing to see for me. I think saying his midrange jumper is "very" good is a litte bit of a stretch, I'd say its good to about 15-18, after that his numbers drop considerably. I think a team's best player should be able to take over games offensively or carry his team offensively for stretches of games and Josh hasn't shown me that. I dont want to make it sound like I am bashing Josh, I think he's a very talented player but I just wouldnt say he's better than Joe.

The bold is very fair and I get where you're coming from. I don't think you're bashing as you are providing good reasons for your evaluation. I got you on the Mike Woodson thing but he made Josh his whipping boy early and Josh wasn't having it. Plus, I think Woodson's offense and use of his personnel sucked.

I think of Josh as their best player because he's the best two way player and the anchor of their defense. He scores 15 a night on just 12 shots. I would love for him to get 15 shots which might give another FTA each night so that might make him a 18pt player, esp. if he improves his FT shooting.

All thats true, Kenny Smith said something interesting last year about Trevor Ariza and his struggles with the Rockets. He said some guys in the league are just "8 shot players" meaning they are very good for only taking "8 shots" but to take more and still be effective you have to be able to expand your all-around offensive game, and some guys just don't have it in them to be more than "8 shot players." I kind of feel this way about Josh (and Horford). For the shots he takes, their good, he's efficient, he doesn't demand the ball, he doesn't mess with the flow of the offense. But if he had to take more shots, he might need to dribble more, or take more jumpers, take more bad shots and I think that could hurt his offensive game and numbers rather than help.

[StutterStep]

All thats true, Kenny Smith said something interesting last year about Trevor Ariza and his struggles with the Rockets. He said some guys in the league are just "8 shot players" meaning they are very good for only taking "8 shots" but to take more and still be effective you have to be able to expand your all-around offensive game, and some guys just don't have it in them to be more than "8 shot players." I kind of feel this way about Josh (and Horford). For the shots he takes, their good, he's efficient, he doesn't demand the ball, he doesn't mess with the flow of the offense. But if he had to take more shots, he might need to dribble more, or take more jumpers, take more bad shots and I think that could hurt his offensive game and numbers rather than help.

I totally agree with that but the shots I want Josh taking are in the paint/assisted ones that Joe/Jamal need to create for him within the offensive scheme.

EDIT: and that's why I like Trevor going to NOH. The Rockets had him taking too many long jumpers and for a while he helped them then eventually it became too much for him.