Retro Player of the Year Project

[ThaRegul8r]

I might actually go with Wilt #1 in 1973 ironically because True brought up that Kareem had an injured elbow which means based on my criteria I can't rely on Kareem knowing he'll get injured. Originally I was going to chalk Kareem playing poorly to him playing against Thurmond (and I probably mostly am anyway) but now that I know he was injured too I might pick Chamberlain. But Kareem will probably be my #1 from 71-72.

But again, Thurmond did it to Kareem in '72 as well, but the Bucks happened to win. And Chamberlain took a page out of Thurmond's book with the same success, which led to the Lakers advancing.

[Ball Does Lie]

I'm loving the list! Keep up the great work.

[Doctor MJ]

I might actually go with Wilt #1 in 1973 ironically because True brought up that Kareem had an injured elbow which means based on my criteria I can't rely on Kareem knowing he'll get injured. Originally I was going to chalk Kareem playing poorly to him playing against Thurmond (and I probably mostly am anyway) but now that I know he was injured too I might pick Chamberlain. But Kareem will probably be my #1 from 71-72.

But again, Thurmond did it to Kareem in '72 as well, but the Bucks happened to win. And Chamberlain took a page out of Thurmond's book with the same success, which led to the Lakers advancing.

Hmm. I think you've laid out a very good point Thurmond and Wilt achieved success in defending Kareem, but I think you're also going a bit over board:

-While Kareem's efficiency in the '71-72 playoffs was bad, in '72-73 the efficiency was even worse and all of his volume stats really went down that year.

-In '71-72, weren't the Lakers just a superior team? Best record, better SRS, won 4 of 5 matchups in the regular season.

[ThaRegul8r]

I might actually go with Wilt #1 in 1973 ironically because True brought up that Kareem had an injured elbow which means based on my criteria I can't rely on Kareem knowing he'll get injured. Originally I was going to chalk Kareem playing poorly to him playing against Thurmond (and I probably mostly am anyway) but now that I know he was injured too I might pick Chamberlain. But Kareem will probably be my #1 from 71-72.

But again, Thurmond did it to Kareem in '72 as well, but the Bucks happened to win. And Chamberlain took a page out of Thurmond's book with the same success, which led to the Lakers advancing.

Hmm. I think you've laid out a very good point Thurmond and Wilt achieved success in defending Kareem, but I think you're also going a bit over board:

-While Kareem's efficiency in the '71-72 playoffs was bad, in '72-73 the efficiency was even worse and all of his volume stats really went down that year.

My point was that it didn't just come out of nowhere, where you could write it off due to injury. It's not like, "Well, Kareem was his usual self last year against Thurmond, so this year it's injury which is clearly responsible for his efficiency falling through the floor." A precedent was already set the previous year, which ended up continuing.

[Doctor MJ]

My point was that it didn't just come out of nowhere, where you could write it off due to injury. It's not like, "Well, Kareem was his usual self last year against Thurmond, so this year it's injury which is clearly responsible for his efficiency falling through the floor." A precedent was already set the previous year, which ended up continuing.

Yup, you've definitely made that point well.

[Sedale Threatt]

Keep meaning to post this. I don't know if any of you ever played Strat-O-Matic or Statis Pro games when you are a kid, but I found a pretty cool computer version:

http://www.dksports.com/basketball.htm

Seeing as how most of us are interested in history and all of that, some of you might enjoy. It's still a simulation, but you do have a decent amount of control as to what happens with subs, strategy and the like.

I bought and downloaded the game the other day and am just starting off a season with the 1979-80 Lakers. It's not perfect, but pretty close to it. Magic had a triple double in his first career game, and Kareem has been monstrous.

[ThaRegul8r]

Keep meaning to post this. I don't know if any of you ever played Strat-O-Matic or Statis Pro games when you are a kid, but I found a pretty cool computer version:

http://www.dksports.com/basketball.htm

Seeing as how most of us are interested in history and all of that, some of you might enjoy. It's still a simulation, but you do have a decent amount of control as to what happens with subs, strategy and the like.

I bought and downloaded the game the other day and am just starting off a season with the 1979-80 Lakers. It's not perfect, but pretty close to it. Magic had a triple double in his first career game, and Kareem has been monstrous.

Hmm. I haven't played this, but I've heard of it. I'll have to check it out.

[Sedale Threatt]

L.A. is now 7-0, with Kareem putting an early claim on MVP -- 31 ppg, 12 rpg, 5 apg, 5 bpg. This game is a trip; they even have a statistical "index" meant to mimic PER.

[JordansBulls]

L.A. is now 7-0, with Kareem putting an early claim on MVP -- 31 ppg, 12 rpg, 5 apg, 5 bpg. This game is a trip; they even have a statistical "index" meant to mimic PER.

Is the link above what you are running, for some reason at work I can't access it.

[Sedale Threatt]

Hmm. Works for me. Try a google search for Action! PC sports games.

[Manuel Calavera]

It looks like Kareem has a very good chance of passing Jordan.

[JordansBulls]

It looks like Kareem has a very good chance of passing Jordan.

He will. But he did have an extra 7 full years. MJ pretty much didn't qualify in 1986 nor 1995 because of the amount of games played. But then was out an entire season as well in 1994.

[Jimmy76]

It looks like Kareem has a very good chance of passing Jordan.

He will.

im wondering if russel or wilt has a shot at it as well

im guessing wilt doesnt he just underperformed in the playoffs too often

[Manuel Calavera]

Russell and Wilt will split the votes every year of their career, I doubt either finishes as high as expected.

I think a guy that will do well is Mikan, he only played 7 years and he'll likely be unanimous for 6 of those years.

[JordansBulls]

1970 I think will be interesting. Willis Reed won both league MVP and Finals MVP and the title and IMO should get POY. Hell any player that wins league mvp and the title that season should be POY.

[Doctor MJ]

Russell and Wilt will split the votes every year of their career, I doubt either finishes as high as expected.

I think a guy that will do well is Mikan, he only played 7 years and he'll likely be unanimous for 6 of those years.

Will be very interesting to see.

One thing of note: If Russell were average a 2nd place vote for the whole decade he and Wilt played together, that would still be 7 points plus another 2 or for the time pre-Wilt. So 9.0, just short of Jordan's 9.5. Obviously that's not even the ceiling for Russell, so it's possible he could surpass Jordan by a good amount.

However, it's entirely possible we'll see a contingent of people who regularly vote Oscar/West/etc ahead of Russell, so who knows?

[ThaRegul8r]

1970 I think will be interesting. Willis Reed won both league MVP and Finals MVP and the title and IMO should get POY. Hell any player that wins league mvp and the title that season should be POY.

Frazier should have gotten Finals MVP though. Reed went down in the first quarter of Game 5, with the series tied at 2-2. The series was still up in the air at the point. It was Frazier who took them home.

And I find it hypocritical that Magic should get Finals MVP in 1980 when Frazier didn't get it in 1970, when Frazier lost his league MVP center as well, but didn't have the luxury of being up 3-2 with two chances to win. Frazier had to do more for the Knicks to win than Magic did: 23.7 points on 62.8 percent shooting from the floor, 89.5 percent shooting from the line and 69.1 percent true shooting, 6.7 rebounds and 12.7 assists in 44.3 minutes per game in the three games after Reed went down. THREE, not ONE, as was the case with Magic.

EDIT: Also, looking at advanced stats, Frazier was second in the league in win shares with 15.0, to league-leader West's 15.2, while Reed was third at 14.6.

Frazier led the league in win shares per 48 minutes at .236, while Reed was third at .227.

Frazier was fifth in offensive win shares at 8.6, while Reed's was 7.2.

Frazier was fifth in the league in PER at 21.1, while Reed's was 20.3.

Frazier was fifth in the league in true shooting percentage at 57.5%, while Reed's was 55.2%.

Reed did lead the league in defensive win shares at 7.5, but Frazier was second at 6.4, and he also received the most votes of anyone on the All-Defensive Team with 27 of 28, while Reed received 15 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=j5 ... 03,5338422), which was actually the fewest votes of anyone on the '69-70 First Team All-D—Dave DeBusschere finished second to Frazier with 24 votes, Jerry West received 23, and Gus Johnson received 17.

In the playoffs, Frazier led the team in win shares (2.8), offensive win shares (1.3), and led everyone in defensive win shares (1.5). Then of course, stepping up in the Finals when Reed went down and have a legendary Game 7 which is one of the greatest postseason performances in NBA history.

[Doctor MJ]

Good post ThaReg.

Reed got the nod over Frazier, but it's not clear from anything other than those particular votes that Reed was superior - and every single person I talk to who was around in that era says Frazier was better.

I do think Reed was great. I'm not prepared to say Frazier was far superior to him, but I'll probably have Frazier higher than him in my voting.

Good chance also I'll have West ahead of both, and maybe Kareem as well.

[DumbyTheWizard]

Kareem is going to get the RPOY in 1971 with something very close (should be exactly) to 1.
So, he'll need 0.31 to pass MJ in 1970. and that will happen, what do you guys think about it?

[penbeast0]

Kareem played a lot more years; Jordan had the two 3 peats but took 2 years off right in the middle too.