Retro POY '71-72 (Voting Complete)

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Re: Retro POY '71-72 (ends Fri Morning) 

Post#21 » by Manuel Calavera » Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:46 pm

Mean_Streets wrote:
fatal9 wrote:Kareem was a monster this season, this very well might have been the best statistical season ever on a 60+ win team (or on any team). On top of that he also anchored the best defense in the league (opponents shot 42% against them in a league average of 45.5%, and a league best 40.5% in the playoffs).

Here are his averages against some of the elite centers of the league during the season:

His five matchups with Cowens, he got:

43/17/2
55/18/3
30/13 (call it an off night)
51/17/7
45/25 (Celtics said pre-game their plan was the "to just hold Jabbar under 50", and I guess they succeeded)

Averages: 44.8 ppg, 18 rpg, 4-5 apg, 57.1 FG%

His five matchups with Wilt in the regular season:

39/17/6
39/20/5
40/18/4
33/12/8
50/8/2

Averages: 40.2 ppg, 15.2 rpg, 5 apg, 51 FG% (Oscar didn't play in most of these games)

In the playoffs here are the stats for Wilt vs. Kareem:

Wilt - 10.8 ppg, 19.3 rpg, 3.3 apg, 45.2 FG%, 44 FT% (probably about a 6-7 block average)
Kareem - 33.7 ppg, 17.5 rpg, 4.8 apg on 45.7 FG%, 84 FT% (probably about 4-5 block average)


Other notes on the series:

- Aggregate stats do hide the fact that Wilt forced Kareem into several poor shooting games. Kareem's shooting by the game was: 14/26, 18/31, 15/37, 14/33, 13/33, 16/37. Kareem averaged 33 FGA in the series, which is an outrageous amount to take against an elite defensive center like Wilt (I doubt anyone has shot over 50% in a 6-7 game playoff series where they averaged 30+ shots, especially against a defensive powerhouse).
- Part of the reason for Kareem's high volume of shots was because Oscar was injured in the series (he only played 5 minutes in the elimination game 6), and part of the reason was Kareem's desire to put up 40 on Wilt every single night (some nights he'd succeed, and some nights he'd shoot poorly). Given how close the series ended up being, this may have been a different series with a healthy Oscar.
- Wilt and West took over in the fourth quarter of game 6 to close out the Bucks. West had 14 pts I believe, Wilt had 9 (off dunks and tip-ins) but his defense on Kareem in that stretch was the real game-changer.
- Kareem played with tendinitis on his "skyhook leg" during the series. He rarely wrapped up his leg, but did so during the series, and judging from the little footage we have of the series, he doesn't have to typical lift on his skyhook: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seEEUwdWapQ&#t=8m38s
- A forgotten hero for the Lakers in this series was Jim McMillian, who had 42 pts in the must win game 2 to lead Lakers to a one point win. Lakers lose that game? They go down 0-2 and go to Milwaukee for next 2 games.
- There was some controversy regarding refereeing. In game 2 (Lakers won by one point), the official missed an over and back on the last play of the game, and then the ball hit the official when it was about to go off on West after Kareem knocked it loose. Bucks stated they were "robbed", and there was a huge discrepancy throughout the series in FT shooting that several newspapers have pointed to. Lakers won every close game, a couple apparently due to favorable refereeing while the Bucks two wins were in blowouts. Bucks actually outscored the Lakers over the series.
- It seems as though everybody shot poorly in this series. Here were the shooting percentages of everyone after 5 games:

Image


Great post. I had no idea Wilt shot such a low FG% vs Kareem in that series considering he shot 65% in the RS. This just confirms Kareem is my #1.

Not that I'm arguing, because Kareem is my #1 this year too, but why would Wilt's FG% matter when he's scoring less than 11 points per game? Wilt shooting 44% as opposed to 65% means he'll score maybe 15 points more over 7 games? Hardly enough to make a difference.
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Re: Retro POY '71-72 (ends Fri Morning) 

Post#22 » by ThaRegul8r » Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:47 pm

To put some more info out there on Kareem's season. This is from my own research:

HIGHEST FIELD GOAL PERCENTAGE IN A SEASON, WITH 30+ POINTS PER GAME
Player Team Year PPG FGA FGM FG%
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Milwaukee 1970-71 31.7 1843 1063 .577
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Milwaukee 1971-72 34.8 2019 1159 .574
3. Adrian Dantley Utah 1981-82 30.3 1586 904 .570
4. Karl Malone Utah 1989-90 31.0 1627 914 .562
5. Adrian Dantley Utah 1980-81 30.7 1627 909 .559
6. Adrian Dantley Utah 1983-84 30.6 1438 802 .558
7. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Milwaukee 1972-73 30.2 1772 982 .554
8. Bob McAdoo Buffalo 1973-74 30.6 1647 901 .547
9. Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia 1965-66 33.5 1990 1074 .540
10. Michael Jordan Chicago 1990-91 31.5 1837 990 .539

This season was the second-highest FG% for a 30-ppg season in NBA history (Kareem has the top two seasons), and is by far the highest FG% at that volume.

HIGHEST TRUE SHOOTING PERCENTAGE IN A SEASON, WITH 30+ POINTS PER GAME
Player Team Year PPG FGA FTA Pts TS%
1. Adrian Dantley Utah 1983-84 30.6 1438 946 2418 .652
2. Adrian Dantley Utah 1981-82 30.3 1586 818 2457 .631
3. Karl Malone Utah 1989-90 31.0 1627 913 2540 .626
4. Adrian Dantley Utah 1980-81 30.7 1627 784 2452 .622
5. Michael Jordan Chicago 1988-89 32.5 1795 793 2633 .614
6. Michael Jordan Chicago 1989-90 33.6 1964 699 2753 .60597
7. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Milwaukee 1970-71 31.7 1843 681 2596 .60579
8. Michael Jordan Chicago 1990-91 31.5 1837 671 2580 .605
9. Michael Jordan Chicago 1987-88 35.0 1998 860 2868 .6034
10. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Milwaukee 1971-72 34.8 2019 732 2822 .6027

(Though this was before the last season, so I hadn't added Kevin Durant to the list.)

This is not from my own research, but:

Player OWS Season Tm
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 18.31 1971-72 MIL
2. Wilt Chamberlain 17.11 1961-62 PHW
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 17.01 1970-71 MIL
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Re: Retro POY '71-72 (ends Fri Morning) 

Post#23 » by fatal9 » Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:47 pm

1. Kareem
2. Wilt
3. Frazier
4. Havlicek - Led Boston to 56 wins. Averaged 28/8/8. Need to look closer at the ECF series vs. Knicks but I think he is comfortably 4th this year.
5. Thurmond - will get lost in the Wilt vs. Kareem debates but he led Warriors to 51 wins and actually slightly statistically outplayed Kareem in the first round.

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Re: Retro POY '71-72 (ends Fri Morning) 

Post#24 » by Mean_Streets » Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:55 pm

Manuel Calavera wrote: Not that I'm arguing, because Kareem is my #1 this year too, but why would Wilt's FG% matter when he's scoring less than 11 points per game? Wilt shooting 44% as opposed to 65% means he'll score maybe 15 points more over 7 games? Hardly enough to make a difference.


I remember someone telling me Wilt shot close to 60FG% during this series & I always thought it was a fact. I just found Wilt's FG% in the series interesting is all.
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Re: Retro POY '71-72 (ends Fri Morning) 

Post#25 » by Sedale Threatt » Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:58 pm

Well, Kareem's looking like a stone-cold lock after all that. Good stuff.
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Re: Retro POY '71-72 (ends Fri Morning) 

Post#26 » by ThaRegul8r » Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:00 pm

fatal9 wrote:1. Kareem
2. Wilt
3. Frazier
4. Havlicek - Led Boston to 56 wins. Averaged 28/8/8. Need to look closer at the ECF series vs. Knicks but I think he is comfortably 4th this year.
5. Thurmond - will get lost in the Wilt vs. Kareem debates but he led Warriors to 51 wins and actually slightly statistically outplayed Kareem in the first round.


I had actually intended to get that out there as I was research that as well, but Kareem vs. Wilt was gonna be the big debate this year.

1972 Western Conference Semifinals - Milwaukee Bucks (63-19) vs. Golden State Warriors (51-31)

Game 1: Golden State won 117-106 to take a 1-0 lead. Jim Barnett led Golden State with 30 points, Jeff Mullins had 29, Nate Thurmond had 22 points and 20 rebounds, and Cazzie Russell had 21. Jabbar had 28 points (13-29 FG) and 15 rebounds. “The key to the game was Thurmond’s play [...]” (The Dispatch, Mar. 29, 1972).

Game 2: Milwaukee won Game 2 118-93 to tie the series at 1-1. Jabbar led the Bucks with 25 points (12-27 FG, 1-2 FT), nine in the third quarter, grabbed a game-high 22 rebounds and had eight assists in 46 minutes. Curtis Perry had 22 points (10-14 FG) and nine rebounds, and Bob Dandridge had 21 (9-16 FG). Oscar Robertson had 17 points (8-14 FG), nine assists and seven rebounds. Nate Thurmond scored a game-high 32 points (13-24 FG), and grabbed 18 rebounds. Milwaukee shot 54-for-105 (51.4%), and Golden State 39-for-99 (39.4%).

Game 3: Milwaukee won 122-94 to take a 2-1 lead. Kareem had 23 points (10-26 FG, 3-5 FT), 16 rebounds and five assists, Dandridge 23 points (8-12 FG, 7-8 FT) and five rebounds, Allen 21 points (10-16 FG) and Robertson 20 points (9-19 FG), nine rebounds and 14 assists. “The Warriors also failed to penetrate the Kareem Abdul-Jabbar led defense Thursday night, losing 118-103 in Milwaukee. ‘The big guy Jabbar intimidates you,’ said Jeff Mullins, who averaged 21.5 in the opening two games but scored only four Saturday. ‘You’re always looking for him instead of concentrating on the basket’” (St. Petersburg Times, Apr. 3, 1972). Nate Thurmond had 21 points (10-24 FG) and a game-high 21 rebounds to lead Golden State.

Game 4: Milwaukee won Game 106-99 behind 31 points and 11 rebounds from Bob Dandridge to take a 3-1 series lead. Greg Perry had 17 points and 12 rebounds, Oscar Robertson 11 points and 11 assists.

Jabbar, although bagging 20 rebounds and blocking shots, was held to his season low of 15 points as he hit on only 6 of 17 shots against the rugged Nate Thurmond. His career low was 13 in his first pro season against Cincinnati, and Thurmond held him to 16 that same season. His other lows were 17 against Thurmond and against Buffalo.

[…]

Thurmond, who held Jabbar to a 24 point average during the regular season compared to his league high 34.8 mark, continues to hold a statistical edge over the NBA’s most valuable player. Nate has 101 rebounds to Jabbar’s 91 and 74 rebounds to 73.
(http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Kd ... 94,1600368)


Jim Barnett scored 29 and Nate Thurmond scored 26 for Golden State.

Game 5: Milwaukee won 108-100 to take the series. “In Thursday night’s victory the Bucks played without reserve guards Wally Jones and Jon McGlocklin and with regular Oscar Robertson at only half strength because of an abdominal strain. Jones is sidelined with a foot injury and McGlocklin is out with a strained back.

“With Robertson slowed by injury and Golden State’s Nate Thurmond continuing his fine defensive work on Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, the Bucks rallied behind the shooting of Bob Dandridge and Lucius Allen to defeat the Warriors for the fourth straight time” (The Bulletin, Apr. 7, 1972).

Bob Dandridge had 29 points (12-26 FG, 5-6 FT) and five rebounds, Allen 24 points (7-18 FG, 10-13 FT), six rebounds and five assists, Abdul-Jabbar 23 points (8-22 FG, 7-10 FT), 22 rebounds and three steals, and Robertson had 19 points (7-14 FG, 5-5 FT), six rebounds and eight assists. Thurmond led Golden State with 26 points (10-23 FG, 6-8 FT), 15 rebounds and seven assists, and Barnett had 21 points and six assists.

“Thurmond climaxed an outstanding five game performance against Abdul-Jabbar by scoring 26 points and finishing with a 127-114 edge. When he left the game with 34 seconds to play, the fans gave him a standing ovation that didn’t subside until Joe Ellis had taken two of three free throws. ‘It was chilling,’ said the appreciative Thurmond afterward. ‘It gave me a wonderful feeling’” (The Milwaukee Journal, Apr. 6, 1972). “Abdul-Jabbar shot only .405 for the series, compared with .574 for the regular season […]. Nobody has ever outplayed Abdul-Jabbar over so long a stretch before” (The Milwaukee Journal, Apr. 6, 1972).

This is what I was referring to in the discussion of last season. Thurmond held Kareem to 13/29 (44.9%), 12/27 (44.4%), 10/26 (38.5%), 6/17 (35.3%), and 8/22 (36.4%) shooting.
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Re: Retro POY '71-72 (ends Fri Morning) 

Post#27 » by ItsMillerTime » Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:38 pm

Early ranking, but probably something like

1. Kareem
2.Wilt
3. Frazier
4. Havlichek
5. West

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Re: Retro POY '71-72 (ends Fri Morning) 

Post#28 » by semi-sentient » Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:56 am

Wow, Kareem destroyed Cowens and Wilt in the RS.

Brutal. :evil:
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Re: Retro POY '71-72 (ends Fri Morning) 

Post#29 » by ThaRegul8r » Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:59 am

fatal9 wrote:1. Kareem
2. Wilt
3. Frazier
4. Havlicek - Led Boston to 56 wins. Averaged 28/8/8. Need to look closer at the ECF series vs. Knicks but I think he is comfortably 4th this year.


1972 Eastern Conference Finals – Boston Celtics (56-26) vs. New York Knicks (48-34)

Game 1: New York stunned Boston 116-94. Walt Frazier led the way with a game-high 36 points (tying his career playoff-high established in Game 7 of the 1970 NBA Finals) on 14-for-19 shooting (73.7%). New York shot 54.5 percent to Boston’s 36.8. “We outran them,” Frazier said, “and that’s what we thought we’d have to protect against. I’m not saying we’ll do the same thing Sunday, but we’ll be loose. The pressure’s on them” (The Telegraph, Apr. 14, 1972). Jo Jo White led Boston with 19 points and Don Nelson had 17. John Havlicek was held to 14 on 6-for-18 shooting (33.3%) after averaging almost 29 a game against Atlanta, and Dave Cowens only had six points.
(http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=e2 ... 04,4422613)

Game 2: 106-105 New York. Dave DeBusschere led New York with 24 points and 17 rebounds. Jerry Lucas had 22, and Bill Bradley and Walt Frazier had 18. “It was the 6-foot-6, 225-pound DeBusschere’s jump shot with 24 seconds remaining that proved decisive. It gave the Knicks a 106-103 lead and enabled them to withstand a basket by Boston’s John Havlicek six seconds later” (The Palm Beach Post, Apr. 17, 1972). John Havlicek had a game-high 29 points for Boston, and Jo Jo White had 23.

Game 3: 115-109 Boston. Jo Jo White led Boston with 29 points, John Havlicek had 26, and Dave Cowens had 23 points (10-18 FG), 16 rebounds and six assists. “He got inside and got to the boards,” said Boston coach Tom Heinsohn. Bill Bradley led New York with 29 points, and Walt Frazier had 28. Earl Monroe had 17.

Game 4: 116-98 New York to take a 3-1 lead. Earl Monroe led New York with 26 points, Dave DeBusschere had 23, Bill Bradley 21, Walt Frazier 17. John Havlicek led Boston with a game-high 27 points, and Jo Jo White had 23.

Game 5: New York 111-103 to advance to the NBA Finals. Dave DeBusschere led a balanced Knick attack with 24 points, Jerry Lucas had 23, and Walt Frazier had 21. John Havlicek led Boston with a game-high 32 points, and Don Nelson had 27.
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Re: Retro POY '71-72 (ends Fri Morning) 

Post#30 » by lorak » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:19 am

ThaRegul8r wrote:Perhaps the best illustration of Abdul-Jabbar’s difficulties lay in his shooting averages. He shot .574 in the regular season but only .437 in the playoffs ― .405 against Thurmond and .457 against Chamberlain.


We praise Wilt for his defense - which was AMAZING - but don't forget abou Nate. As good as Wilt was defensively that year Thuromnd was probably even better. And that means he probably was the best man to man defender of all time.
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Re: Retro POY '71-72 (ends Fri Morning) 

Post#31 » by ThaRegul8r » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:38 am

DavidStern wrote:
ThaRegul8r wrote:Perhaps the best illustration of Abdul-Jabbar’s difficulties lay in his shooting averages. He shot .574 in the regular season but only .437 in the playoffs ― .405 against Thurmond and .457 against Chamberlain.


We praise Wilt for his defense - which was AMAZING - but don't forget abou Nate. As good as Wilt was defensively that year Thuromnd was probably even better. And that means he probably was the best man to man defender of all time.


No, absolutely. You're absolutely right. Thurmond's actually one of my favorite players, and he was unfortunate to be overshadowed by Russell and Wilt, and then Kareem, but Nate should absolutely get his just due, and hopefully from this project people who don't know will realize just how good he was. As I posted five posts up:

ThaRegul8r wrote:1972 Western Conference Semifinals - Milwaukee Bucks (63-19) vs. Golden State Warriors (51-31)

Game 1: Golden State won 117-106 to take a 1-0 lead. Jim Barnett led Golden State with 30 points, Jeff Mullins had 29, Nate Thurmond had 22 points and 20 rebounds, and Cazzie Russell had 21. Jabbar had 28 points (13-29 FG) and 15 rebounds. “The key to the game was Thurmond’s play [...]” (The Dispatch, Mar. 29, 1972).

Game 2: Milwaukee won Game 2 118-93 to tie the series at 1-1. Jabbar led the Bucks with 25 points (12-27 FG, 1-2 FT), nine in the third quarter, grabbed a game-high 22 rebounds and had eight assists in 46 minutes. Curtis Perry had 22 points (10-14 FG) and nine rebounds, and Bob Dandridge had 21 (9-16 FG). Oscar Robertson had 17 points (8-14 FG), nine assists and seven rebounds. Nate Thurmond scored a game-high 32 points (13-24 FG), and grabbed 18 rebounds. Milwaukee shot 54-for-105 (51.4%), and Golden State 39-for-99 (39.4%).

Game 3: Milwaukee won 122-94 to take a 2-1 lead. Kareem had 23 points (10-26 FG, 3-5 FT), 16 rebounds and five assists, Dandridge 23 points (8-12 FG, 7-8 FT) and five rebounds, Allen 21 points (10-16 FG) and Robertson 20 points (9-19 FG), nine rebounds and 14 assists. “The Warriors also failed to penetrate the Kareem Abdul-Jabbar led defense Thursday night, losing 118-103 in Milwaukee. ‘The big guy Jabbar intimidates you,’ said Jeff Mullins, who averaged 21.5 in the opening two games but scored only four Saturday. ‘You’re always looking for him instead of concentrating on the basket’” (St. Petersburg Times, Apr. 3, 1972). Nate Thurmond had 21 points (10-24 FG) and a game-high 21 rebounds to lead Golden State.

Game 4: Milwaukee won Game 106-99 behind 31 points and 11 rebounds from Bob Dandridge to take a 3-1 series lead. Greg Perry had 17 points and 12 rebounds, Oscar Robertson 11 points and 11 assists.

Jabbar, although bagging 20 rebounds and blocking shots, was held to his season low of 15 points as he hit on only 6 of 17 shots against the rugged Nate Thurmond. His career low was 13 in his first pro season against Cincinnati, and Thurmond held him to 16 that same season. His other lows were 17 against Thurmond and against Buffalo.

[…]

Thurmond, who held Jabbar to a 24 point average during the regular season compared to his league high 34.8 mark, continues to hold a statistical edge over the NBA’s most valuable player. Nate has 101 rebounds to Jabbar’s 91 and 74 rebounds to 73.
(http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Kd ... 94,1600368)


Jim Barnett scored 29 and Nate Thurmond scored 26 for Golden State.

Game 5: Milwaukee won 108-100 to take the series. “In Thursday night’s victory the Bucks played without reserve guards Wally Jones and Jon McGlocklin and with regular Oscar Robertson at only half strength because of an abdominal strain. Jones is sidelined with a foot injury and McGlocklin is out with a strained back.

“With Robertson slowed by injury and Golden State’s Nate Thurmond continuing his fine defensive work on Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, the Bucks rallied behind the shooting of Bob Dandridge and Lucius Allen to defeat the Warriors for the fourth straight time” (The Bulletin, Apr. 7, 1972).

Bob Dandridge had 29 points (12-26 FG, 5-6 FT) and five rebounds, Allen 24 points (7-18 FG, 10-13 FT), six rebounds and five assists, Abdul-Jabbar 23 points (8-22 FG, 7-10 FT), 22 rebounds and three steals, and Robertson had 19 points (7-14 FG, 5-5 FT), six rebounds and eight assists. Thurmond led Golden State with 26 points (10-23 FG, 6-8 FT), 15 rebounds and seven assists, and Barnett had 21 points and six assists.

“Thurmond climaxed an outstanding five game performance against Abdul-Jabbar by scoring 26 points and finishing with a 127-114 edge. When he left the game with 34 seconds to play, the fans gave him a standing ovation that didn’t subside until Joe Ellis had taken two of three free throws. ‘It was chilling,’ said the appreciative Thurmond afterward. ‘It gave me a wonderful feeling’” (The Milwaukee Journal, Apr. 6, 1972). “Abdul-Jabbar shot only .405 for the series, compared with .574 for the regular season […]. Nobody has ever outplayed Abdul-Jabbar over so long a stretch before” (The Milwaukee Journal, Apr. 6, 1972).

This is what I was referring to in the discussion of last season. Thurmond held Kareem to 13/29 (44.9%), 12/27 (44.4%), 10/26 (38.5%), 6/17 (35.3%), and 8/22 (36.4%) shooting.
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Re: Retro POY '71-72 (ends Fri Morning) 

Post#32 » by lorak » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:45 am

Yeah, that's amazing - Thurmond outplayed KAJ on both ends of the floor.

I even considering to put him at 3rd place behind KAJ and Wilt.
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Re: Retro POY '71-72 (ends Fri Morning) 

Post#33 » by semi-sentient » Tue Aug 17, 2010 2:32 pm

Good info on Thurmond. He's not a player that I know much about, but I'll keep him in mind when I start putting the RS/PS stats together. Based on those summaries, it's pretty clear to me that he's up there with the best in terms of defense.
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Re: Retro POY '71-72 (ends Fri Morning) 

Post#34 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Aug 17, 2010 5:48 pm

Spent some time analyzing the two series involving the 3 big ABA candidates: Kentucky (Gilmore) vs New York (Barry) and Virginia (Erving) vs New York.

New York won against HCA in both series, so it begs the question, did Barry rise up and show the young fellers how it was done?

Not so much. He played well, but from what I can tell he wasn't considered the MVP of either series.

Against Kentucky, he missed game 4, and played poorly in the clinching game 6 (15 points, fouled out early). They won both games. The story of the series was teammate John Roach who went from scoring 12.9 ppg in the regular season to more than 30 in this series - and scoring more points than anyone else in the series (Barry still slightly averaged more per game).

Against Virginia, the story was Erving. He had not been the designated volume scorer in the regular season (Charlie Scott was) - but Scott jumped ship just before the playoffs to then NBA. Virginia may have won 1 more game than New York in the regular season, but going into the playoffs no one would have considered them the favorite over New York. Erving and Barry both scored about 31 ppg game, but Erving also rebounded an amazing 21 boards per game (The 7'2" Gilmore had only done 18 against the Nets), and racked up assists (one game of 15 assists). Erving ended up first in PPG, first in RPG, and second in APG in the whole league for the post-season.

So, Barry's probably not a strong candidate for my top 5, still deciding on the other two. Gilmore was the best in the regular season, but his playoffs are problematic (though, it was Issel who was the goat of that series). Erving was clearly the best of the playoffs - but he only made All-ABA 2nd team in the regular season.
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Re: Retro POY '71-72 (ends Fri Morning) 

Post#35 » by Optimism Prime » Tue Aug 17, 2010 5:56 pm

Just updated my personal spreadsheet--after this year, Kareem will only be 6 points behind MJ for first place.
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Re: Retro POY '71-72 (ends Fri Morning) 

Post#36 » by JordansBulls » Tue Aug 17, 2010 6:55 pm

Who would Thurmond compare to nowadays? Would he be more of Deke or Alonzo or someone else?
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Re: Retro POY '71-72 (ends Fri Morning) 

Post#37 » by TrueLAfan » Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:10 pm

JordansBulls wrote:Who would Thurmond compare to nowadays? Would he be more of Deke or Alonzo or someone else?


Thurmond was more like a bigger KG or a more physical DRob. He was big/strong enough to man up to players, but he had great length and quicks. He really is one the greats on D.

This year, I'll go.

1. Kareem. I have some misgivings. Got outplayed by Thurmond in the PS...though not by Wilt. The "Wilt was better" comments from the time are indicative of the fact that Wilt had gone from being the outsider (to Russell's cool, calm demeanor and leaderhsip) to the conservative, establishment player (as opposed to the silent, Black Muslim Kareem). Again, this is indicative of the era. Kareem is too good to bypass here.

2. Wilt. Gets the nod over the Logo for his postseason play (with a broken hand, no less).

3. West. Dropping off slightly, but still an elite player. In the 33 game win streak, West averaged 26.1-4.5-10.1. Was not as good in the PS, but still had big games and impact beyond numbers.

4. Havlicek. Is essnetially interchagneable with Frazier. Both were awesome. Boht led great teams. Both had good postseasons. On court, I'd take Fraier by a whisker...but Hondo played 500 more mintues, so that pushes him ahead by a hair.

5. Frazier. See above.

HM Artis. Erving, Wise, Beaty. The ABA had good players...just not quite good enough to bust in this year.,
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Re: Retro POY '71-72 (ends Fri Morning) 

Post#38 » by semi-sentient » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:14 pm

So is this the year we say the ABA is more like street ball or the D-league? I'm looking at Erving's numbers and wanting to have his baby.

Regular Season

Code: Select all

Player          GP  MIN   PTS   TS%   REB   AST   PER   WS
============================================================
Kareem          81  44.2  34.8  .603  16.6  4.6   29.9  25.4
Wilt            82  42.3  14.8  .610  19.2  4.0   18.5  15.8
Frazier         80  43.2  21.7  .576   6.8  6.7   21.6  14.5
Havlicek        82  45.1  27.5  .512   8.2  7.5   20.1  12.4
West            77  38.6  25.8  .546   4.2  9.7   23.1  13.3
Thurmond        78  43.1  21.4  .492  16.1  2.9   18.7   9.0
Artis           84  43.6  23.8  .620  17.8  2.7   26.6  19.8
Erving          84  41.8  27.3  .545  15.7  4.0   23.9  13.3


Post Season

Code: Select all

Player          GP  MIN   PTS   TS%   REB   AST   PER   WS
============================================================
Kareem          11  46.4  28.7  .462  18.2  5.1   22.4  1.6
Wilt            15  46.9  14.7  .562  21.0  3.3   17.8  3.0
Frazier         16  44.0  24.3  .572   7.0  6.1   21.5  3.3
Havlicek        11  47.0  27.4  .540   8.4  6.4   19.9  1.5
West            15  40.5  22.9  .445   4.9  8.9   18.8  1.0
Thurmond         5  46.0  25.4  .473  17.8  5.2   21.2  0.4
Artis            6  47.5  21.8  .608  17.7  4.2   21.7  1.0
Erving          11  45.8  33.3  .569  20.4  6.5   30.4  2.8


Awards Recognition / Misc

Code: Select all

Player          MVP     All-NBA   All-Defense    Team Record
============================================================
Kareem          1st     1st       ---            63-19
Wilt            3rd     2nd       1st            69-13
Havlicek        4th     1st       1st            56-26
West            2nd     1st       1st            69-13
Frazier         ---     1st       1st            48-34
Thurmond        ---     ---       2nd            51-31
Artis           1st     1st       ---            68-16
Erving          ---     2nd       ---            45-39



I find it hard to knock Kareem too much when Oscar Robertson, Jon McGlocklin and Wally Jones were all hurting against the Lakers. That seemed to have a major impact on the series. I recognize that Wilt played fantastic defense and "held" Jabbar below his season averages, but Kareem still demolished him overall. He gets a lot of credit for keeping him from exploding and leading the Lakers to a title, but it's not enough to overcome the monster season that Kareem had. Both guys were among the best defenders in the league, anchoring top 5 defenses, so I see no significant advantage for either there. So, Kareem is my #1 and Wilt is my #2.

After that, I'm look at Walt Frazier who performed brilliantly in both the RS (1st team All-NBA, All-Defense) and PS. He was super consistent, and while he had a good amount of help, it's not like any of the other candidates he's competing with (Hondo and West) didn't have their share of help. He was also very good in the Finals, putting up 23.0 PTS (.612 TS%), 8.0 REB, and 8.0 AST. I basically see no blemishes here and find myself wondering if perhaps he should be ranked above Wilt. That's a hard sell though, so for he's my #3.

After that it comes down to Hondo and West, and the main thing that jumps out at me is the amount of minutes Hondo is playing compared to West. That gives him an edge in my book considering the numbers are about even. He's also clearly his teams best player.

People don't seem to be taking the ABA all that seriously this season so I'm just going to assume Erving's and Gilmore's stats are way inflated.

Final rankings:

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Walt Frazier
4. John Havlicek
5. Jerry West

HM: Julius Erving, Artis Gilmore, Nate Thurmond

Edit: Finalized my rankings. Probably the first time I didn't have a change after my initial vote. Yay.
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Re: Retro POY '71-72 (ends Fri Morning) 

Post#39 » by ElGee » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:40 pm

Jerry West described his shooting slump during the playoff as "his worst since 7th grade." West, in general, probably "impresses" me more than any offensive player when I watch 60s games, and he certainly does more than just score as TrueLA alluded to. I just watched game 5 of the Finals and although the game is missing a few minutes, West tips at least 4 or 5 balls with those "38 inch" arms. The Lakers didn't really have a true PG in the way we think of it now, but West approximated that role, and well obviously (they ran a lot through Chamberlain too).

West finished *ahead* of Wilt in MVP voting (by the players) and led all NBA players in all-league voting (voted on by the fans).

But, his postseason shooting is an obvious concern:
(FGs, FTs)

v Milwaukee
G1: 10 pts (4-19, 2-4)
G2: 28 pts (10-30, 8-8) The paper described him as "almost the goat"
G3: 22 pts (9-19, 4-5)
G4: 24 pts (9-23, 6-8)
G5: 22 pts (7-15, 8-11)
G6: 25 pts (8-?, 9-11)

Series: 21.8 ppg -- 50% shooting in the final game would give him .459 TS% for the series

v New York
G1: 12 pts (3-15, 6-6)
G2: 15 pts (6-21, 3-3)
G3: 21 pts (10-28, 1-3)
G4: 28 pts (9-25, 10-12)
G5: 23 pts (10-28, 3-5)

Series: 19.8 ppg .381 TS%
Playoffs: 22.9 ppg 4.9 rpg 8.9 apg .445 TS%

EDIT: Fun fact, according to SI, West was out with a sprained ankle for the first 3 LA losses...which means he didn't lose a game in 1972 until January 9.
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Re: Retro POY '71-72 (ends Fri Morning) 

Post#40 » by ronnymac2 » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:55 pm

Learning about the battles between the great titans is making this the best read of this project in a while, which is saying a lot. This must have been an amazing year to watch basketball.
Pay no mind to the battles you've won
It'll take a lot more than rage and muscle
Open your heart and hands, my son
Or you'll never make it over the river

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