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it's horrible

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Re: it's horrible 

Post#41 » by DRK » Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:44 am

lilfishi22 wrote:
Da_Reel_Kboy wrote:Warrick should start, with Turk on the bench. I have said this from the very start.

Warrick will replicate Amare's pick and roll play, and with Turk coming off the bench, he can help Dragic with the ball handling duties, and would also allow Dragic to play a Manu Ginobilli type role, as the primary scorer off the bench.


We need Hedo in the starting lineup otherwise our starting lineup is going to be really weak. Our 2nd unit was already one of the best in the NBA without the additions of Warrick and Childress so adding Hedo would be overkill. What we lost this off-season is scoring in the starting unit and Hedo will help with that.


Still not entirely convinced though... Warrick is more of a traditional PF than Hedo, and Nash has played his entire career with a "traditional" pf. If Hedo starts, and plays the role as a "non-traditional" pf, I am not sure how that would affect us. Would Nash be able to run the plays as efficiently? I dont know.

Anyway, why cant Warrick replace the scoring we lost when losing Amare? Basically all he has to do is run the pick and roll, finish hard at the rim (which he is probably better at than Amare), and hit the occasional mid range shot.
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Re: it's horrible 

Post#42 » by BurningHeart » Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:56 am

The PFs during the 2005/2006 year were not particularly "traditional"
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Re: it's horrible 

Post#43 » by lilfishi22 » Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:39 am

Da_Reel_Kboy wrote:Still not entirely convinced though... Warrick is more of a traditional PF than Hedo, and Nash has played his entire career with a "traditional" pf. If Hedo starts, and plays the role as a "non-traditional" pf, I am not sure how that would affect us. Would Nash be able to run the plays as efficiently? I dont know.

Anyway, why cant Warrick replace the scoring we lost when losing Amare? Basically all he has to do is run the pick and roll, finish hard at the rim (which he is probably better at than Amare), and hit the occasional mid range shot.


I would've liked us to go with a traditional lineup but it's clear with our style of basketball we keep implementing, we have to throw out terms like "traditional" lineups. Last season we had guys like Dudley and Hill playing PF in short stints and I expect that to be the case with Hedo, only for a slightly prolonged "stint". I think Hill will start but will sit probably after the first 5min, allowing Hedo to shift down to his natural position and bring either Frye or Warrick off the bench to fill in the 4.

The PnR will probably still be there with Lopez in the lineup so Nash will still have his opportunity to run his plays. Additonally, with Hedo in the lineup, that gives us another playmaker and shot creator and this takes a lot of pressure of Nash which means even though we lost one of our best weapons (Nash/Amare PnR), we've added a whole dimension to our offensive system (Hedo) that we've missed since JJ was still a Sun.

Warrick doesn't have the strength or the touch of Amare to finish with a high percentage shot consistently. If you notice, Amare's PnR rarely culminates in a dunk, but rather lay ups in contact or with Amare maneuvering around the defenders for the easy score. Obviously you'll see a lot of Amare's PnR finish with a dunk in the highlights, but if you take into account all the PnR plays that ends with Amare scoring, only a small percentage end in a dunk. Only 16% of Amare's offense comes from dunks, while 51% comes from his jump shot and 30% are from shots close to the rim. If you consider 61% of Amare's offense is assisted then really, only about 10% of Amare's PnR's end with a dunk. Finishing hard at the rim is not as easy as just jumping and expecting to dunk on everybody. Obviously Warrick won't replace Amare's offense but you can expect him to score in the double digits (10-12ppg depending on PT). So when I say Warrick will replicate Amare's PnR, I mean he'll play Amare's role as a PnR player, setting screens, slipping screens and be available for a PnP but we should not overestimate his PnR abilities yet just because he's a good dunker.

I'd like Warrick to come off the bench with the starting lineup since his skills are better matched with Nash's passing while Frye's talent as a 3PT shooter and ability to play off the bench with little drop in production, means that Frye can play just fine with or without Nash (but with Dragic).

BurningHeart wrote:The PFs during the 2005/2006 year were not particularly "traditional"

True, but our rebounding (Trix+Diaw=18.7RPG) and offense (35.1PPG) in the front court allowed us to play a less than "traditional" front line. Our tempo and spending little time on the defensive end meant we got away with a lot of fundamentals defensively.
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Re: it's horrible 

Post#44 » by DRK » Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:50 am

lilfishi22 wrote:
Da_Reel_Kboy wrote:Still not entirely convinced though... Warrick is more of a traditional PF than Hedo, and Nash has played his entire career with a "traditional" pf. If Hedo starts, and plays the role as a "non-traditional" pf, I am not sure how that would affect us. Would Nash be able to run the plays as efficiently? I dont know.

Anyway, why cant Warrick replace the scoring we lost when losing Amare? Basically all he has to do is run the pick and roll, finish hard at the rim (which he is probably better at than Amare), and hit the occasional mid range shot.


I would've liked us to go with a traditional lineup but it's clear with our style of basketball we keep implementing, we have to throw out terms like "traditional" lineups. Last season we had guys like Dudley and Hill playing PF in short stints and I expect that to be the case with Hedo, only for a slightly prolonged "stint". I think Hill will start but will sit probably after the first 5min, allowing Hedo to shift down to his natural position and bring either Frye or Warrick off the bench to fill in the 4.

The PnR will probably still be there with Lopez in the lineup so Nash will still have his opportunity to run his plays. Additonally, with Hedo in the lineup, that gives us another playmaker and shot creator and this takes a lot of pressure of Nash which means even though we lost one of our best weapons (Nash/Amare PnR), we've added a whole dimension to our offensive system (Hedo) that we've missed since JJ was still a Sun.


I'd like Warrick to come off the bench with the starting lineup since his skills are better matched with Nash's passing while Frye's talent as a 3PT shooter and ability to play off the bench with little drop in production, means that Frye can play just fine with or without Nash (but with Dragic).


Okay Now Im convinced.

I like the point about Hedo helping Nash with ball-handling duties. It gives Nash more oppotunities to use his jumpshot on more occasions. At the moment, his jump shot skills as a little bit wasted, as he is mainly setting up other people.

If Warrick can shape his game like Lou, e.g great hustle, and goes hard for every ball, he will be a true fan favourite in Phoenix, as he also has the monster dunk in his repotoire.
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Re: it's horrible 

Post#45 » by lilfishi22 » Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:51 pm

Da_Reel_Kboy wrote:Okay Now Im convinced.

I like the point about Hedo helping Nash with ball-handling duties. It gives Nash more oppotunities to use his jumpshot on more occasions. At the moment, his jump shot skills as a little bit wasted, as he is mainly setting up other people.

We've been trying to make Nash play off the ball more for the last couple of seasons but the ball always just ends up in his hands because we've never had a player good enough to handle the ball and create offense outside of Nash. Hedo gives us a legit shot creator/play maker that we haven't had since JJ left us ages ago. If we had another wing man who could take the ball out of Nash's hands these past few seasons, we would've won a championship. Nash being the only guy handling the ball puts so much pressure on him to create and teams just try to either shut him down (Spurs-Bowen) or they let him do his thing and shut down the rest of the team (Lakers).

I'm not overly excited about our chances of going deep in the playoffs this season (same thing I said last off-season :roll: ) but I'm certainly intrigued to see what this new lineup could do.
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Re: it's horrible 

Post#46 » by YFZblu » Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:41 pm

BurningHeart wrote:The PFs during the 2005/2006 year were not particularly "traditional"


My sentiments exactly.

Shawn Marion
Boris Diaw
Dirk Nowitzki

Steve Nash is accustomed to playing with non-traditional power forwards. The notion that he has 'always' played with a traditional power forward isn't exactly accurate.
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Re: it's horrible 

Post#47 » by Fordman » Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:06 pm

Warrick doesn't have the strength or the touch of Amare to finish with a high percentage shot consistently. If you notice, Amare's PnR rarely culminates in a dunk, but rather lay ups in contact or with Amare maneuvering around the defenders for the easy score. Obviously you'll see a lot of Amare's PnR finish with a dunk in the highlights, but if you take into account all the PnR plays that ends with Amare scoring, only a small percentage end in a dunk. Only 16% of Amare's offense comes from dunks, while 51% comes from his jump shot and 30% are from shots close to the rim. If you consider 61% of Amare's offense is assisted then really, only about 10% of Amare's PnR's end with a dunk


Exactly right!! Those stats are why Amare became a much better weapon in his last two years with the Suns. However, I believe that happened out of necesity because his knees were healing, and he had to develope a jump shot and rely a little more on finesse over power at the rim. (Just curious...What were his percentages before he blew out his knees?)

The reason I like the original line up is a mix of defense and offense. Hill did a good job on defense and Lopez did as well.


Against the Lakers Hill did a working mans job on Kobe, and when we play the Lakers again this year I believe he will have the same assignment. You have to sacrifice a little offense with Hill on the floor but if it frustrates Kobe in the slightest...it must be done.

I think the lineups will change depending on the other team. Hard to plan for when we can change styles so often!!
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Re: it's horrible 

Post#48 » by Fordman » Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:23 pm

YFZblu wrote:
If you subtract the Terry Porter tenure...the Phoenix Suns have been one of the most entertaining teams in the NBA for a long time, and Suns fans should appreciate that. (You could be watching a boring team like the Spurs or the Pistons 3-4 nights a week.)



The way the Pistons are constructed now, it's not boring basketball; it's bad basketball.

I have no idea why you think the Spurs are boring. Sure, they won't be scoring 110 a night, but watching Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili on the perimeter combined w/ TD's brilliance is never boring.


I agree that the Spurs are the epitome of basketball brilliance, but I very rarely rewind a parker, Ginobili or TD move just to figure out how in the hell they just pulled that off. (I think it is because I truly appreciate atheletic briliance + a whole lot of luck combined in the same move... :D )
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Re: it's horrible 

Post#49 » by YFZblu » Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:25 pm

I very rarely rewind a parker, Ginobili or TD move just to figure out how in the hell they just pulled that off.


They've had plenty of rewind-worthy moments against the Suns :p

Wait...Did I just zing my own team?
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Re: it's horrible 

Post#50 » by Fordman » Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:47 pm

I must admit - Tim Duncan's rediculous 3 point shot to win the game made me hit pause, shed a tear, and then slowly rewind the play just to determine if that really just happened....lol.

That is what I mean about combining athleticism and luck for a re-wind moment. When he went for the shot I started laughing, when it went in.....I started crying.

Definately worth an instant replay on the DVR.
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Re: it's horrible 

Post#51 » by Fordman » Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:00 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trdsKp94Io0[/youtube]

Yup....still makes me cry
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Re: it's horrible 

Post#52 » by YFZblu » Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:17 pm

Posting that video here should be a lifetime BAN from this forum. Dear lord. What a horrible turn of events...

I'll go ahead and blame it on Amar'e. Just 'cause.
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Re: it's horrible 

Post#53 » by Fordman » Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:25 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_wykgldWLU[/youtube]

Here is one that makes up for it

Watch how Amare was demanding a double team in the paint - Oh wait....he wasn't even in that game....Good thing we had a 3 point shooting PF in the game. :lol:
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Re: it's horrible 

Post#54 » by YFZblu » Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:50 pm

Can't watch it here at work, I'm assuming it's Tim Thomas.

What a sweet moment that was. Thanks to Shawn Marion for the offensive rebound.
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Re: it's horrible 

Post#55 » by lilfishi22 » Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:52 pm

Fordman wrote:
Warrick doesn't have the strength or the touch of Amare to finish with a high percentage shot consistently. If you notice, Amare's PnR rarely culminates in a dunk, but rather lay ups in contact or with Amare maneuvering around the defenders for the easy score. Obviously you'll see a lot of Amare's PnR finish with a dunk in the highlights, but if you take into account all the PnR plays that ends with Amare scoring, only a small percentage end in a dunk. Only 16% of Amare's offense comes from dunks, while 51% comes from his jump shot and 30% are from shots close to the rim. If you consider 61% of Amare's offense is assisted then really, only about 10% of Amare's PnR's end with a dunk


Exactly right!! Those stats are why Amare became a much better weapon in his last two years with the Suns. However, I believe that happened out of necesity because his knees were healing, and he had to develope a jump shot and rely a little more on finesse over power at the rim. (Just curious...What were his percentages before he blew out his knees?)


I think Amare figured that while he was still quicker and more athletic than most PF/C's even after his knee surgery, he can't just keep dunking on people for the rest of his career and he needed to expand his range so he's harder to guard. He always had a decent finishing game even when it doesn't end in a dunk and that comes with his natural soft touch so that really helped him as he slowed down after his operation.

Unfortunately, those percentages don't go as far back.
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Re: it's horrible 

Post#56 » by Frank Lee » Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:28 pm

lilfishi22 wrote:Unfortunately, those percentages don't go as far back.


I think they started keeping track of Dunks that one yr.... and at one point, Stat and Shaq were like at 130+ ea.... and the next nearest had 60 some.

oh what could have been
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Re: it's horrible 

Post#57 » by lilfishi22 » Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:49 pm

Frank Lee wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:Unfortunately, those percentages don't go as far back.


I think they started keeping track of Dunks that one yr.... and at one point, Stat and Shaq were like at 130+ ea.... and the next nearest had 60 some.

oh what could have been

Yeah I couldn't be bothered looking up the dunk counter but Amare is always up the top of the list. I think he was like 2nd this season behind Dwight.
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Re: it's horrible 

Post#58 » by Miklo » Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:54 pm

Frank Lee wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:Unfortunately, those percentages don't go as far back.


I think they started keeping track of Dunks that one yr.... and at one point, Stat and Shaq were like at 130+ ea.... and the next nearest had 60 some.

oh what could have been


I remember that year, seeing Shaq and Amar'e and then nobody; hell I remember the feeling that Amar'e was going to be the most beastly player the NBA had ever seen :-?
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Re: it's horrible 

Post#59 » by hunterxaz » Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:10 pm

Fordman wrote:[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trdsKp94Io0[/youtube]

Yup....still makes me cry


Love this video, cuz it makes finally not just beating them, but f'ing SWEEPING them in the playoffs, that much sweeter.

F the Spurs.
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Re: it's horrible 

Post#60 » by Calvin Klein » Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:19 pm

Fordman wrote:[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_wykgldWLU[/youtube]

Here is one that makes up for it

Watch how Amare was demanding a double team in the paint - Oh wait....he wasn't even in that game....Good thing we had a 3 point shooting PF in the game. :lol:


JRich's 3 should be even bigger than this one. :(

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