Can you name 15 players in NBA history better than Kobe?

[Queen James]

The biggest problem with giving kobe top 15 is that we have no idea if he would have won anything in the three peat without shaq.

And we don't know if Shaq wins that 3 peat without Kobe. Remember, Shaq wasn't winning too many championships before he had Kobe beside him.

I say there is 0% chance Shaq wins that 3 peat without Kobe. Why does the Shaq/Kobe 3 peat diminish Kobe's accomplishments but not Shaq's.

The problem with comparing anyone to Kobe or ranking Kobe is that people either like him or hate him. And I know it goes both ways, but I just feel that 90% of people who don't like Kobe try and downplay his accomplishments because of it and don't rank him fairly. A classic example is the one listed above. Why are those 3 rings iffy for Kobe but not for Shaq? Because Shaq was better than Kobe? So what, Shaq wasn't winning those rings without Kobe. No way.

[Queen James]

Players who were clearly better, or accomplished more than Kobe (no particular order)

MJ - Sure
KAJ - Sure
Russell - Sure
Bird - Sure
Magic - Sure
Wilt - Sure
Shaq - I would put Kobe really close to Duncan and Shaq, to say there CLEARLY better is pretty laughable.
Duncan - See above
Hakeem
Dr. J -- This is where your list gets pretty laughable, I mean wow, cmon.
West
Mailman
Moses
Robinson
Mikan
Cousy
Havlichek
Lebron
Barkely

[Vinsanity420]

If it's talking about career, no, I can't. Even with the peak play argument, I can go AT MOST 14...

Now, Peak play:

Wilt
Bird
Jordan
Russell
Magic
Kareem
Shaq
Oscar
The Logo
Moses and Karl Malone
Hakeem
Duncan
Dr. J

Kobe would still be #15 on my list. Barkley, KG, etc. are a bit of a reach.

[Ball Does Lie]

Wilt Chamberlain
Bill Russell
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Shaquille O'Neal
Hakeem Olajuwon

That's just centers...

[coolnerd88]

I don't think Kobe is top 15, I might not put him top 20. He's never been the legit best player in the league. He isn't a highly efficient scorer or terribly impressive passer. I don't think that winning 5 rings puts you anywhere on the All-Time great player list, because if you take guys like TMac, Bernard, Carmelo, 'Nique or Melo and put them in Kobe's situation early in the 2000s, those teams still win at least 2 championships, and potentially 4 (since Kobe's out of control ego was largely to blame for the implosion of the 2004 team).

I just don't see it. The case for Kobe is essentially that he has scored a lot of points and played a ton of games while benefiting from playing for a team that seems to get gifted one great big man a decade. Sure, his accomplishments count for something, but he doesn't pass the eye test. I don't think prime Kobe was better than prime Nique or prime TMac. I just think he's one of the most over rated All Time players in NBA history. He's a phenomenal player, but when you are comparing him to the best of the best, I don't think his high volume, middling efficient game passes the test.

Okay 15 was hard enough but 20...If you can put out a nice argument for 20 legit players better than Kobe...I'd be open to it. I'm not a troll nor a unreasonable hater and dang sure am not no hugger....So if you can name 20 players and give a good argument, I would be open to hearing it and IF it's good enough, I might even buy it.

As for your perception of Kobe...I feel the same way. Like I said there is no definitive yr when Kobe was the CLEAR CUT BEST. He is very inefficient, dude has never shot 47 percent in a season...and like I said to put it nicely, Wade has never shot under 46% in a season and he only did that twice...Lebron has shot 41% twice before but those were his first two yrs..after that he has never sniffed less then 47% in a season...high scoring guards can be efficient, Kobe just isn't one of them and in his early yrs, he was a selfish chucker....he never performs well in the finals, sans MAYBE one and he still shot horribly..I mean I respect longevity and thats where Kobe makes his money not because he was ridiculously dominant. I mean, I mentioned this before...Iverson can't get a lick of respect because of his inefficiency but Kobe's inefficent problems are ignored. For these reasons he does not make my top 10.

[Gotta_B_KD35]

I can only name 1, Michael Jordan.

And lol at the haters about who don't have Kobe in their top 10. Wake up and give the man his due.

I'm with you. Anyone who doesn't think Kobe has an argument for GOAT, a Lakers username and a picture of him as their avatar is clearly a hater.

Clearly.

hahaha true say

[coolnerd88]

Kobe is hard to rate with people because alot of rules change with Kobe.

Like I WILL NEVER understand how all of a sudden...during the 3 peat..Kobe and PEAK SHAQ were equals..good lord, ripley's wouldn't even believe that one....Did he help? sure, he might have even been the reason a couple of times that they got to the finals...but my point is, when did a couple of great playoff series make you 1b? I mean scottie pippen had some MEMORABLE playoff games, Jordan had bad games and scottie came through in the clutch BUT SO WHAT...Jordan was the man and so was Shaq and he showed that in the finals..when HE was double teamed, still getting his points and Kobe was single coverage STILL having subpar finals... so where did all this 1b come from?

Thats just one of many things I'll never understand about the ranking of Kobe..Like what definitive yr was he number 1? some say 2006? The yr Nash won MVP taking a team of Tim Thomas, Boris Diaw, Kurt Thomas and the other merry band of men to the WCF? or the yr when Wade went NUTZ in the playoffs?...I mean what yr was it NOT arguable where he was the best?...

I feel these things need to be taken into account when one strives to be in the 10 GREATEST PLAYERS of all time argument...but other ignore and lie and turn history around....

yup seems like Kobe is unrankable lol

[SDChargers#1]

So many things wrong with this thread. People saying Walt Frazier's peak is better than Kobe's? Frazier best year he put up 23, 6, 6. Not even close to Kobe's peak.

And comparing Kobe's efficiency to Iverson's is absurd.

Iverson shoots a lower FG%, 3P%, and FT% than Kobe. In some of his peak years he was putting up sub 40% shooting with sub 30% 3P%. That is straight back.

45% FG with 35% 3P% and 85% FT, while not amazing is certainly above average TS%. Iverson doesn't even approach those numbers.

[kabstah]

I don't think Kobe is top 15, I might not put him top 20. He's never been the legit best player in the league. He isn't a highly efficient scorer or terribly impressive passer. I don't think that winning 5 rings puts you anywhere on the All-Time great player list, because if you take guys like TMac, Bernard, Carmelo, 'Nique or Melo and put them in Kobe's situation early in the 2000s, those teams still win at least 2 championships, and potentially 4 (since Kobe's out of control ego was largely to blame for the implosion of the 2004 team).

I just don't see it. The case for Kobe is essentially that he has scored a lot of points and played a ton of games while benefiting from playing for a team that seems to get gifted one great big man a decade. Sure, his accomplishments count for something, but he doesn't pass the eye test. I don't think prime Kobe was better than prime Nique or prime TMac. I just think he's one of the most over rated All Time players in NBA history. He's a phenomenal player, but when you are comparing him to the best of the best, I don't think his high volume, middling efficient game passes the test.

Okay 15 was hard enough but 20...If you can put out a nice argument for 20 legit players better than Kobe...I'd be open to it. I'm not a troll nor a unreasonable hater and dang sure am not no hugger....So if you can name 20 players and give a good argument, I would be open to hearing it and IF it's good enough, I might even buy it.

As for your perception of Kobe...I feel the same way. Like I said there is no definitive yr when Kobe was the CLEAR CUT BEST. He is very inefficient, dude has never shot 47 percent in a season...and like I said to put it nicely, Wade has never shot under 46% in a season and he only did that twice...Lebron has shot 41% twice before but those were his first two yrs..after that he has never sniffed less then 47% in a season...high scoring guards can be efficient, Kobe just isn't one of them and in his early yrs, he was a selfish chucker....he never performs well in the finals, sans MAYBE one and he still shot horribly..I mean I respect longevity and thats where Kobe makes his money not because he was ridiculously dominant. I mean, I mentioned this before...Iverson can't get a lick of respect because of his inefficiency but Kobe's inefficent problems are ignored. For these reasons he does not make my top 10.

You guys are too harsh on Kobe. He's not as efficient as MJ or Lebron, but he's pretty comparable to Wade because Kobe's a markedly better 3 pt and FT shooter. Kobe and Wade's career and peak TS% are within 1% of each other, for example. Even in 2005-2006 when it was the Los Angeles Kobes vs. the rest of the league, he still had a 56 TS% which is not middling efficiency. It's actually above average to good efficiency, which combined with his insane volume that year, makes for one of the better single season offensive outputs we've seen in the modern era.

[rrravenred]

Kobe's always struck me as a very hot and cold player in terms of shooting. who himself isn't able to pick the difference.

[coolnerd88]

And comparing Kobe's efficiency to Iverson's is absurd.

Iverson shoots a lower FG%, 3P%, and FT% than Kobe. In some of his peak years he was putting up sub 40% shooting with sub 30% 3P%. That is straight back.

45% FG with 35% 3P% and 85% FT, while not amazing is certainly above average TS%. Iverson doesn't even approach those numbers.

Uh oh... somebody's trying to manipulate the numbers...shocking..

Well all thats extra stuff is great but when you sift through the BS...

Kobe's career is 45%...Iverson's is 42%....they both suck

Kobe's HIGHEST fg is 46% in a season...unfortunatley for him, so is Iverson's

Kobe's career 3p% is 34%...has Iverson beat because Iverson is only 31%..yea HUGE DIFFERENCE BUDDY

Kobe's career FT% is 83%...Iverson's is 78%...finally a little breathing room but still nothing to write home about..

Iverson has 4 seasons where he went 30 or over ppg at an efficiency rating of 42% 39% 42% 44%....Kobe has 3 at 45% 45% 46%....again I will concede Kobe has breathing room in this department but again it's nothing to run and write home about

Iverson has NEVER NEVER EVER scored less than double digit in the playoffs...you know what I could go on because Iverson's resume is nothing to sneeze at but thats not the point I'm trying to make...

Iverson isn't efficient but neither is Kobe....not even a little bit. He's had TIMES when he's been efficient but so has Iverson...there are excuses why Kobe's stats are the way that they are....I could come up with some REALLLY GOOD for AI too....
Point is, it doesn't matter they are inefficient and are both chuckers to the extreme...Kobe's just slightly better at it with his MONSTEROUS scoring outbursts.

[wallflower]

Can you stop with ellipses? A simple period is good enough.

[coolnerd88]

Now to Kobe's credit...he's hovered around 45% in a season pretty consistently with his lowest being 43% and Iverson has hovered around 42% with his lowest being 39%


Like I said...Kobe is better at what they both do...now to Kobe's credit he has progressed as a teammate thats for sure..Phil came back the second time around and changed him...pick up Gasol and Kobe has done a 180 turn..............but still it does not change the fact that he is very ineffificent and back in the day, they were both selfish volume shooting chuckers

[coolnerd88]

Can you stop with ellipses? A simple period is good enough.

Can't help it, it's the way I post LOL

[wallflower]

Yea I understand, just sometimes you lose me with all the ellipses am not great either just tone it down some. hah

[kabstah]

TS% isn't manipulating the numbers, it's giving a more accurate look at efficiency by accounting for FT% and 3 pointers. Looking at FG% alone is misleading. Shooting 35% from 3 is more efficient than shooting 50% from 2, obviously.

[Vinsanity420]

.but still it does not change the fact that he is very ineffificent and back in the day, they were both selfish volume shooting chuckers

You completely ignored the true shooting %’s, and again go back to calling him an inefficient volume shooter?

[wallflower]

Now to Kobe's credit...he's hovered around 45% in a season pretty consistently with his lowest being 43% and Iverson has hovered around 42% with his lowest being 39%


Like I said...Kobe is better at what they both do...now to Kobe's credit he has progressed as a teammate thats for sure..Phil came back the second time around and changed him...pick up Gasol and Kobe has done a 180 turn..............but still it does not change the fact that he is very ineffificent and back in the day, they were both selfish volume shooting chuckers

So ? Zo, Duncan, Kg, Ewing, Wallace are all great defensive anchors that generally can't be relied on to power your entire offense on. But one is undisputed top 10 because of the results of his play. Likewise, there is a huge seperation Kobe and Iverson and a lot of other shooters.

The game could be played with all the top 10 players. Like I said before the only real common thread among the top 10 is success at the highest levels.

[coolnerd88]

TS% isn't manipulating the numbers, it's giving a more accurate look at efficiency by accounting for FT% and 3 pointers. Looking at FG% alone is misleading. Shooting 35% from 3 is more efficient than shooting 50% from 2, obviously.

Aight..I'm game..I got no problem yielding if it sounds right

Explain to me how TS% is more accurate then me just comparing their fg% and 3p% and ft% one by one? I mean it seems to me TS is just a scientific way to mix it all together which is manipulating their true percentage.

As far as I'm concerned if your shooting 45% and under..then it doesn't matter how you got there...if you aren't efficient, you aren't efficient..

atleast to me but like I said...explain it to me bro...I could be mixing stuff up and doing things wrong so let me know why I can't do it my way

[coolnerd88]

So ? Zo, Duncan, Kg, Ewing, Wallace are all great defensive anchors that generally can't be relied on to power your entire offense on. But one is undisputed top 10 because of the results of his play. Likewise, there is a huge seperation Kobe and Iverson and a lot of other shooters.

The game could be played with all the top 10 players. Like I said before the only real common thread among the top 10 is success at the highest levels.

I'm not holding that against him...he's won championships but for SOME PLAYERS, they ran into the wrong era, IE Karl Malone ran into Jordan...Iverson happens to get to the finals against PEAK SHAQ, I mean he performed admirably but I mean, it's peak Shaq and Iverson's team wasn't that good in the first place.


I mean some players catch breaks others don't..just the way it is