coolnerd88 wrote:erudite23 wrote:I don't think Kobe is top 15, I might not put him top 20. He's never been the legit best player in the league. He isn't a highly efficient scorer or terribly impressive passer. I don't think that winning 5 rings puts you anywhere on the All-Time great player list, because if you take guys like TMac, Bernard, Carmelo, 'Nique or Melo and put them in Kobe's situation early in the 2000s, those teams still win at least 2 championships, and potentially 4 (since Kobe's out of control ego was largely to blame for the implosion of the 2004 team).
I just don't see it. The case for Kobe is essentially that he has scored a lot of points and played a ton of games while benefiting from playing for a team that seems to get gifted one great big man a decade. Sure, his accomplishments count for something, but he doesn't pass the eye test. I don't think prime Kobe was better than prime Nique or prime TMac. I just think he's one of the most over rated All Time players in NBA history. He's a phenomenal player, but when you are comparing him to the best of the best, I don't think his high volume, middling efficient game passes the test.
Okay 15 was hard enough but 20...If you can put out a nice argument for 20 legit players better than Kobe...I'd be open to it. I'm not a troll nor a unreasonable hater and dang sure am not no hugger....So if you can name 20 players and give a good argument, I would be open to hearing it and IF it's good enough, I might even buy it.
As for your perception of Kobe...I feel the same way. Like I said there is no definitive yr when Kobe was the CLEAR CUT BEST. He is very inefficient, dude has never shot 47 percent in a season...and like I said to put it nicely, Wade has never shot under 46% in a season and he only did that twice...Lebron has shot 41% twice before but those were his first two yrs..after that he has never sniffed less then 47% in a season...high scoring guards can be efficient, Kobe just isn't one of them and in his early yrs, he was a selfish chucker....he never performs well in the finals, sans MAYBE one and he still shot horribly..I mean I respect longevity and thats where Kobe makes his money not because he was ridiculously dominant. I mean, I mentioned this before...Iverson can't get a lick of respect because of his inefficiency but Kobe's inefficent problems are ignored. For these reasons he does not make my top 10.
I don't really agree with your categorizations about him as a "chucker" or the denigration of his early years. You are hitting at one of his biggest offensive problems though, which has been shot selection. A I've always been concerned about how he played the bigger the moments (playoffs, FInals, 4th quarters, elimination games). Then there's the question of him acting up if he doesn't like his situation or there is another alpha dog. Anyways, as always, it depends on what you're asking. Peak? Career? How are we handling cross-era comparisons?
If we're just talking about impact relative to average peer, I'd say:
Clearly (chronological order)
1. Mikan
2. Russell
3. Wilt
4. Kareem
5. Erving
6. Bird
7. Magic
8. Jordan
9. Hakeem
10. K. Malone
11. Shaq
12. Duncan
Arguably
13. Schayes
14. Oscar
15. West
16. Baylor
17. Barry
18. M. Malone
19. Barkley
20. Robinson
21. Garnett
With LeBron and Wade potentially being there in 2-3 years.
Other criteria involve era-adjustment, so I'll leave those alone. I am comfortable comparing within the 3-point era though, and off the top of my head for
careers only, I'd take:
Clearly (chronological order)
1. Bird
2. Magic
3. Jordan
4. K. Malone
5. Shaq
6. Duncan
Kobe's somewhere at the top of the next tier, which for me would look something like:
7. Garnett
8. Kobe
9-13 Nash/Dirk/Barkley/LeBron/Wade
(Ewing/Pippen/Robinson would probably round out a top-15.)
So I think it really depends on the question your asking. He has great longevity and great skill, but doesn't have an amazing peak and hasn't really dominated an era. He also presents different pros/cons depending on circumstance/time. So the criteria really matter here.
