Can you name 15 players in NBA history better than Kobe?

[eatyourchildren]

You don't want to cook the numbers. Well why don't you look at it from a "playing the game the right way" perspective:

If you're not shooting the jumper well, what does a coach tell you to do?

Simple: get to the free throw line.

And if you're doing that, you better as hell be making those freebies.

Kobe does that. That's what ups his efficiency. (that and the 3's)

[eatyourchildren]

From 05-07.....it was consensus around the league that Kobe was the best player in the game. Not RealGM consensus, I mean player/coach/gm consensus.

The years surrounding, it was pretty much Duncan/Shaq/Lebron/Wade. I don't count the Tmac bs because c'mon, he had 1 year of awesomeness and 10 of disappointment. And he never played awesome defense.

So if you have Kobe around Duncan/Shaq/Lebron/Wade in terms of peak, and Duncan/Shaq/Keem in terms of career.....then you should have Kobe at Duncan/Shaq level in your all-time list.

And that's pretty much where he's at. No way he's below 15, because neither Shaq nor Duncan are.

[Jordan23Forever]

^^^^ No one thought Kobe was the best in 2005. That was KG or Duncan. '06 and '07, sure.

[Winsome Gerbil]

I'm so late to this party I'll just post my list and leave:

1) Jordan
2) Wilt
3) Russel
4) Kareem
5) Oscar
6) Magic
7) Bird
---------------
8) Shaq
9) Hakeem
10) Duncan
11) Kobe
12) Mailman
13) Dr. J
14) West
15) Moses

Comer --> LeBron

So no, not 15. 10 though.

[SoundGarden]

since this thread&people who think kobe s not top 10 all time are stat nerds im gonna give em some stats.
kobe s stats in his career when he was starting(like all these players who rank above him your lists)
27,2 ppg (thats top 5 in all time)
5,7 reb
5,1 apg
if you say 'no it aint work that way' i simply say you re hater coz then you re not giving this man his props for being a only superstar in history of nba who starts his career as a bench guy-that alone puts him in a top 10.

now since everybody has their starting stats,where s these stats puts kobe?
it aint putting him top 10 or 15 cozzz

every year its the same sh.t.
first it was he wins titles coz of shaq
while he was putting mvp seasons in two of that title runs(and please do tell me where was shaq s dominance when he was playing with lil penny or when kobe was still a pup.La won those champs when kobe puts his game into another level)
then he cant make anything without shaq.
then he goes crazy scoring 35-31 two seasons in a row-one of the most dominant seasons ever.
then he cant win title without shaq.
he wins.
then he gotta win it twice,if he wants to be a all time great.
he wins again.
then he has to beat miami or whoever else.
...

what this nygga has to do? in order to you guys accept reality.
NOTHİNG
just stfu already,go and read what all time greats think about kobe or todays coach&players.
'he s still not on the top 10 or 15'

is just pathetic.

kobe s 32 and he s 7-10 in all time list without arguement.
he has 4 year more.
if he had one more 25+ppg & 5& 5 year that puts him duncan coz of longetivity,
and imagine where can he be in rest of these 4 years.
he s going to have a legit shot at being all time scoring leader and you guys are going to say 'well that s just a indication of how big ballhog was he' if he achieves that.

either compare kobe with all time greats with same logic for everyone or dont compare him at all.

btw op my where s wade ranks? top 20 right?

[rrravenred]

Y'know, if you hold down the shift key and type a letter, it becomes upper-case. Just a thought.

[initiald]

Alright I'ma give this a shot...In no definitive order so nobody get their panties in a bunch

1.Jordan
2.Chamberlain
3.KJ
4.Magic
5.Larry
6.Dr.J
7.Shaq
8.Duncan
9.Russel
10.Hakeem
11. Jerry West
12.Oscar
13.Moses
14.Karl Malone
15.Charles Barkley

I think I could feel comfortable arguing this list....Malone is number 2 in points all time and 6th in rebounds. Won two MVPs. Known as one of the greates power forwards to ever play the game.....As far as Oscar, 9th all time in points and 5th in assists. Is only player in NBA history to average a triple-double for an entire season. Won the NBA Finals in 1970-1971 and has won one NBA MVP....Moses was beast, 6th all time in points, 5th in rebounds, and 21st in blocks and was a three time MVP and won the NBA Finals and Finals MVP in 1983....Charles is pushing BUT a case can be made he was one of four NBA players to have 20,000 points, 10,000 rebounds, and 4,000 assists...with a league MVP

Now a few of these players don't have NBA championships but I can easily argue that they ran into the GOAT..which sucks but nobody was topping Jordan so that can't be held against them...Jordan was unstoppable....as stated in the Reggie documentary "When Jordan retired, a new sense of wave came over, everybody felt like they had a chance..the league was wide open" LOL...you can't hold that against anybody

Now I pushed it alittle but nonethless these players have great resumes

Jerry West over Kobe? you must be on crack. Ask the Lakers fan who's better.

[Dajadeed]

well he would have two losses to the celtics in the finals where he was favored if perkins doesn't go down.... and he consistently plays worse in the finals.

jordan
kareem
russell
wilt
bird
magic
duncan
hakeem
shaq

9 players i would take over kobe any day of the week, no questions asked. (even if kobe has great longevity, i would much rather duncan/hakeem/shaq on my team to win rings).

I personally argue that 10th spot between kobe,oscar and west. then i have the huge group of: moses, dr j, robinson, barkley, baylor, hondo, malone, thomas, pettit, garnett, etc. below kobe (and west/robertson obviously)

The hate in this thread is hilarious. If Perkins doesn't get hurt? How about him having 1 more title if Bynum/Ariza aren't hurt?

And anyone who doesn't think he's already top 10 all time, peak or overall career, is just hating or doesn't understand basketball.

What Kobe has proven is that you build a decent team around him you WILL play for finals and you WILL win rings. Not too many players can say that. Not even Lebron. When Kobe's team is winning 60 plus games he gets you to the finals AT LEAST, wins you a ring most likely. Don't act like other players just haven't been "in the right situation."

[RunMCR]

and then heat "fans" cry about lebron being the most hated player on realgm this thread is hilarious.

Funny how you criticize Kobe for not being considered the best at one point of their career, but you don't penalize Shaq or Duncan for being the same. It's pretty clear that coaches and other players' opinion>realgm opinion. And their consensus was that Kobe was the best 2005-2010. 10 is shaky because Kobe was injured, but when he was healthy during the beginning of rs and in playoffs he was the best too. Besides, you can make the argument for Kobe being the best during the 2nd year of their three peat and after that.

[nonemus]

and then heat "fans" cry about lebron being the most hated player on realgm this thread is hilarious.

Funny how you criticize Kobe for not being considered the best at one point of their career, but you don't penalize Shaq or Duncan for being the same. It's pretty clear that coaches and other players' opinion>realgm opinion. And their consensus was that Kobe was the best 2005-2010. 10 is shaky because Kobe was injured, but when he was healthy during the beginning of rs and in playoffs he was the best too. Besides, you can make the argument for Kobe being the best during the 2nd year of their three peat and after that.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1004743

Both Shaq and Kobe were considered number one during several years of their NBA career.

[ipoopinmypants]

I'll tell you what, if Kobe beats the trio in the finals next year, I put him at 7 or 8.

[jaypo]

Actually, Dajadeed, what Kobe has proven is that if he has the most dominant player in the league at his side OR the consensus best team in the league at his side AND the GOAT coach at the helm, then he can win. But if he doesn't, he can't. And he also needs to be bailed out in game 7 of the finals by the center that was gifted to him.

Just sayin'!

[Vincent 666]

Actually, Dajadeed, what Kobe has proven is that if he has the most dominant player in the league at his side OR the consensus best team in the league at his side AND the GOAT coach at the helm, then he can win. But if he doesn't, he can't. And he also needs to be bailed out in game 7 of the finals by the center that was gifted to him.

Just sayin'!

and Shaq was gifted the 2nd greatest 2 guard ever for his titles.


Plus Kobes 2009 title team was worse than any team Shaq lead to a title.

Many its so hypocritical that you would hold some of these things against Bryant like playing with GOAT coach and needing another star to win when you're a Shaq fan.

Those percieved negatives fit Shaq perfectly.

[Vincent 666]

If all people look at is stats and peak play when determining all time standings, then why is Duncan usually ranked around top 10 ahead of Malone but KG isnt?

[Asianiac_24]

Actually, Dajadeed, what Kobe has proven is that if he has the most dominant player in the league at his side OR the consensus best team in the league at his side AND the GOAT coach at the helm, then he can win. But if he doesn't, he can't. And he also needs to be bailed out in game 7 of the finals by the center that was gifted to him.

Just sayin'!

See this is why its so frustrating to argue against some of these obvious haters in this board. Everyone have their own criteria for their all-time list, but BE CONSISTENT WITH EVERY PLAYER. When you spew this type of garbage just to downgrade Kobe, remember to do it for other players, too. I mean, if you want to hold Kobe's supporting cast against him, how about Shaq? What has Shaq proved, other than being able to win with a top future HOF SUPERSTAR shooting guard? Does the fact that Shaq couldn't win squat with Penny or with the Lakers when Kobe wasn't very good be held against him?

Just sayin'

[NYK 455]

Better

Jordan
Shaq
Hakeem
Kareem
Bird
Magic
Wilt
Robinson
Barkley
Garnett
Duncan
LeBron


Players with peaks as good or better than Kobe's

Erving
Paul
Nash
Ewing
TMac
Malone
Wade
Hill
Mourning

[Vincent 666]

People on these boards overrate 90s big men.

Robinson, Ewing, Barkley, Malone were all known as 4th quarter chokers in their day.

A big man can not control the flow of a game in the 4th quarter the way a guard like Bryant can because they are dependant on other players to get the ball. Thats why a guard (like Bryant) to me can be more valuable than a big man. I saw this type of scenario play out many times between Duncan and Bryant when the Spurs and Lakers matched up in the playoffs

[JordansBulls]

There may be 15 guys with better primes, but not better careers.

[penbeast0]

The OP seemed to be asking about career arc rather than purely peak which is a different quesiton. I'd say Kobe is top 10 ahead of Oscar (didn't win consistently as a top star, only the 1 ring as a complement to Kareem), West (almost but never quite made it, again, until the 70s where at least he was 1a/1b with Wilt but again for only 1 ring), or the 4 players in Vincent's post (not a lot of rings there either -- it's not the only criteria but it's a significant one and the easiest one to point out a difference).

On the other hand, I disagree with Vincent if he is saying that guards are generally more valuable than equally talented big men. In certain limited situations, sure, but not generally. While the guard can control the ball more in the clutch, the defensive impact of a dominant shotblocker/post defender is difficult to match even for a great outside help/man defender like Pippen or Moncrief.

That said, Kobe has proved himself both individually dominant and capable of leading a team to a title. It's hard to put him much lower than 11th and I have him 10th ahead of Julius Erving and behind Russell, Jordan, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, Magic, Bird, Hakeem, and Duncan ... but if he wins another title as main man with Gasol as his second best, he might move up a bit; two or three more and he is probably top 5.

The game is about winning and he's done that.

[jaypo]

Actually, Dajadeed, what Kobe has proven is that if he has the most dominant player in the league at his side OR the consensus best team in the league at his side AND the GOAT coach at the helm, then he can win. But if he doesn't, he can't. And he also needs to be bailed out in game 7 of the finals by the center that was gifted to him.

Just sayin'!

See this is why its so frustrating to argue against some of these obvious haters in this board. Everyone have their own criteria for their all-time list, but BE CONSISTENT WITH EVERY PLAYER. When you spew this type of garbage just to downgrade Kobe, remember to do it for other players, too. I mean, if you want to hold Kobe's supporting cast against him, how about Shaq? What has Shaq proved, other than being able to win with a top future HOF SUPERSTAR shooting guard? Does the fact that Shaq couldn't win squat with Penny or with the Lakers when Kobe wasn't very good be held against him?

Just sayin'

Why is it frustrating? What part was untrue? When Shaq was removed from the Lakers, Kobe couldn't even get them into the playoffs. Do you think that if Kobe were traded, Shaq would have missed the playoffs the following year? I'm pretty sure that if Shaq had Caron Butler and Lamar Odom, the Lakers wouldn't have dropped off as much as they did in 05. Secondly, Shaq DID win Squat with Penny. He got the the Finals, and went thru Jordan's Bulls to get there.

Next, I love how everybody that disagrees with Kobe not being the GOAT is a Hater by default. That's comical, and it is one of the main reasons why I love to stir you guys up. You don't even have to say something negative abou thim- all you have to do is state that he is not immortal, and people get their panties in a bunch, and start tagging everyone as a hater. Well, my friends, I neither love nor hate Kobe. I think he is the best player in the game right now if you combine skills and determination. But I think that he laid an egg in the finals but was still gifted the finals MVP in a game whose outcome was totally controlled by the officiating. And I think that it doesn't matter that a big man needs someone to get him the ball. That is a ridiculous argument, Vincent. Was Barry Sanders any less great of a running back even though he needed a quarterback to hand him the ball? Was Jerry Rice less of a great player because he needed Joe Montana and Steve Young to throw him the ball? In that case, Kobe is less of a great player because he needed his bigs to cover his ass thru 3.75 quarters so he could shine in the last .25 of the 4th!