Can you name 15 players in NBA history better than Kobe?

[Vincent 666]

Actually, Dajadeed, what Kobe has proven is that if he has the most dominant player in the league at his side OR the consensus best team in the league at his side AND the GOAT coach at the helm, then he can win. But if he doesn't, he can't. And he also needs to be bailed out in game 7 of the finals by the center that was gifted to him.

Just sayin'!

See this is why its so frustrating to argue against some of these obvious haters in this board. Everyone have their own criteria for their all-time list, but BE CONSISTENT WITH EVERY PLAYER. When you spew this type of garbage just to downgrade Kobe, remember to do it for other players, too. I mean, if you want to hold Kobe's supporting cast against him, how about Shaq? What has Shaq proved, other than being able to win with a top future HOF SUPERSTAR shooting guard? Does the fact that Shaq couldn't win squat with Penny or with the Lakers when Kobe wasn't very good be held against him?

Just sayin'

Why is it frustrating? What part was untrue? When Shaq was removed from the Lakers, Kobe couldn't even get them into the playoffs. Do you think that if Kobe were traded, Shaq would have missed the playoffs the following year? I'm pretty sure that if Shaq had Caron Butler and Lamar Odom, the Lakers wouldn't have dropped off as much as they did in 05.

With all three of them missing time because of injuries?

Nope.

I would love to see Shaq playing with a PG combo of Chucy Atkins/Tierre Brown

Next, I love how everybody that disagrees with Kobe not being the GOAT is a Hater by default.

huh? who said that?

Typical of most Kobe critics......just start arguing against something that wasnt even said.

[Vincent 666]

And I think that it doesn't matter that a big man needs someone to get him the ball. That is a ridiculous argument, Vincent.

its part of the nature of the position.

Just like big men can affect the defensive end more than a guard can, a guard can impact a close 4th quarter game more than a big man because he isnt dependant on another player to get the ball. A team can more easily adjust their defenses to stop a big man (since they know where and on what spot on the floor he is going to the ball) than they can a guard.

Its not a coincidence to me that Shaq finally broke through and won a ring once he was teammed with a guard who could control the game in the 4th quarter the way Bryant can. Ewing/Barkley/Robinson(who were all known as 4th quarter disappearing artists in many circles in their day) would have all greatly benefited by playing with Bryant as well.

[Asianiac_24]

Why is it frustrating? What part was untrue? When Shaq was removed from the Lakers, Kobe couldn't even get them into the playoffs. Do you think that if Kobe were traded, Shaq would have missed the playoffs the following year? I'm pretty sure that if Shaq had Caron Butler and Lamar Odom, the Lakers wouldn't have dropped off as much as they did in 05. Secondly, Shaq DID win Squat with Penny. He got the the Finals, and went thru Jordan's Bulls to get there.

Next, I love how everybody that disagrees with Kobe not being the GOAT is a Hater by default. That's comical, and it is one of the main reasons why I love to stir you guys up. You don't even have to say something negative abou thim- all you have to do is state that he is not immortal, and people get their panties in a bunch, and start tagging everyone as a hater. Well, my friends, I neither love nor hate Kobe. I think he is the best player in the game right now if you combine skills and determination. But I think that he laid an egg in the finals but was still gifted the finals MVP in a game whose outcome was totally controlled by the officiating. And I think that it doesn't matter that a big man needs someone to get him the ball. That is a ridiculous argument, Vincent. Was Barry Sanders any less great of a running back even though he needed a quarterback to hand him the ball? Was Jerry Rice less of a great player because he needed Joe Montana and Steve Young to throw him the ball? In that case, Kobe is less of a great player because he needed his bigs to cover his ass thru 3.75 quarters so he could shine in the last .25 of the 4th!

So many things wrong with this post I really don't know where to start.

1. First off, in 2005 all of Kobe/Caron/Odom were injured for different parts of the season. Also to note, Odom was a SF that year, so Caron and Odom were both playing in the same position. They didn't mesh well, add to the injuries and poor point guard play and it led to a terrible year for the Lakers. With Shaq's laziness and immature behaviour, I don't think Shaq with the 05 Lakers would make the playoffs.

2. Getting swept with Penny Hardaway in the Finals is "winning squat"? .

3. The worst part. I never said Kobe is the GOAT, don't assume it.

4. Everyone on this board knows you're a Shaq homer who hates Kobe Bryant, including Sedale Threatt and numerous other credible posters. Spewing a bunch of BS and claiming your obvious fake admiration for Kobe won't trick us. We're not stupid. It's obvious in your posts.

5. I don't watch football so I have no idea what the last part is about.

[jaypo]

Yeah, I've heard that I am a Kobe hater with an agenda. Because I gain SOOOOO much from my "agenda", and it makes me feel SOOOO much better to hate a person!!!

I'm a critic of anyone that I watch play. Everyone has flaws, including the immortal Kobe Bryant! Sure, I'm a Shaq homer. But just because I am, that doesn't automatically make me a Kobe hater. As far as "other credible posters", what makes them credible enough to know any damn thing about me? I sit there and tell them numerous times that I don't hate Kobe, but they "know better than that". Well, if someone that has never seen me with their own eyes, never read an autobiography about me, or doens't have inside information from anyone that knows me makes them "credible" to comment about me, well, accept that if you will. But I think I know my self just a tad better than those "credible posters".

I don't assume that Kobe is the GOAT. That's the whole point of my post!!

Getting TO the finals in 95 is winning squat. Especially getting thru MJ's Bulls (something that neither Barkley, Malone, Ewing, DRob, and Akeem could not do). Especially when coached by Brian Hill.

Shaq and Kobe both spent time injured while they were together. And you know what? The Lakers had a better record with Shaq and without Kobe than they did with Kobe and without Shaq. Injuries are part of the game. Do you blame Shaq for Miami's struggles in 07? Because Wade, Haslem, JWill, Zo all spent time out. Yet, even Riley and Wade called out Shaq for not being able to carry that team to a better record. And if you say it was okay to call out a 35 yr old center playing on a bad knee and injured hip with 3/5 of your starting lineup out for most of the season (including the 06 Finals MVP), then it's okay to call out Kobe for not winning without Lamar and Caron. And I ask you again- do you honestly think that if the Lakers traded Kobe for the same pieces, would they have missed the playoffs???

Vincent- I've seen Shaq play with a PG combination of a young Fisher (who couldn't guard a barn) and Mike friggin' Penberthy! So don't try that crap. I've also seen Shaq lead a team to the finals coached by Bryan Hill.

In one sentence, you say that Shaq was ONLY able to win once he was paired with a guard that can create his own shot- well, wasn't he teamed with Penny??? Don't you Shaq haters and/or Kobe huggers constantly bash him for not being able to win with Penny??? You guys are so 2 faced, that it makes me laugh- and that's why I keep doing what I do. Hopefully, the other reasonable people around here will see thru you guys as I do. And as I remember, Shaq and Kobe were paired together in 96, weren't they? So they played together 4 years before they won anything. But you are very quick to say that it was because of Kobe's stellar play. But I never hear ya'll talk about the other change that occurred in 00. Some guy by the name of Phil Jackson?????

[coolnerd88]

coolnerd88:

TS% is pretty much the right way to look at things.

Suppose I have two players, both who shoot identically from 2 point land, threes, and FTs. Say 50% from two, 40% from 3, 90% from the line. How do I measure who is the better scorer? Well, Guy A gets 1/2 of his shots from two, 1/4 from 3, and 1/4 from the line. Guy B gets 1/6 from two, 1/2 from 3, and 1/3 from the line.
Pretty clear that if they are getting the same number of touches, I'd much rather have the latter guy touching the ball than the former, despite their identical shooting percentages.

Basically, Kobe gets to the FT line a lot, which makes up for his sometimes unimpressive FG% and 3 point %.

I appreciate the explanation. I can argue with numbers but I'm not a numbers guy and generally stick to the basics ...The advanced stuff, in general looks like too much work. Anyways after looking it up...Iverson's TS is 51%...while Kobe's is 55% so even taking everything into account, it is basically like the fg percentage argument where Kobe's is 45% and Iverson's is 42%. Either way..It still supports the "their both volume shooters but Kobe's better at it argument". Now I am not arguing that Iverson is a better player then Kobe but I will highlight the chucking and volume shooting that they both do.

Wade's TS is 56% but that because he's such a average 3 point shooter, so that brings down his efficiency rating. I don't believe for a second that Kobe is as efficient as Wade..when Wade has never shot less the 46% in a season(and he's only shot 46% twice: his rookie yr and his injury 15 win season) and Kobe has never shot more then 46% in a season...that sounds like manipulation to me because Wade doesn't even take that many 3's but when he does he misses which brings his TS down, if I have it down correctly. Lebron James TS is also 56% but Kobe isn't as efficient as him either, especially when Bron has YET to shoot less than 47% in a season sense his first two seasons in the league. So while TS is a good indication, apparently it still doesn't help Kobe and is alittle flawed, unless I'm missing something, If I am let me know

Someone mention that Kobe isn't a chucker but just has bad shot selection, well I couldv'e sworn that is the very definition of chucking. The problem with Kobe is, the shots that he chucks..he can get EXTREMELY, DANGEROUSLY hot and make all of them, therefore leading others to neglect the fact that it was a bad shot in the first place. It's too many dynamics when it comes to Kobe thats why nobody can come to one conclusion about him. He's a alltime great though but thats about where I agree at. His ranking, sorry he isn't top 10 in my book.

[Ripp]

^--- Think about it this way....you want to generate points as efficiently as possible.

How can you generate points? Some combination of twos, threes, and FTs.

And what do we mean by "efficiency"? Well, we mean the number of shot attempts you use. This is all TS% really is.....points divided by True Shooting Attempts. The only wrinkle is that TSA also counts FTs as shot attempts...each FT is .44 of an attempt (if you think about it, this makes sense...FTs aren't quite free. A guy who is a 15% free throw shooter will cost his team a lot of possessions if/when the other team decides to hack him and send him to the line.)

Anyway, Kobe's TS% is above average. And since he scores so many points on above-average efficiency, while creating for himself and others, he gets tons of credit.

[The Main Event]

Kobe's impact is about equal to Barkley's, so anyone that has had a better career than Barkley gets my vote. That list is:

1) Wilt
2) Hakeem
3) Kareem
4) Malone
5) Jordan
6) Duncan
7) Magic
8) Bird
9) Shaq
10) Ewing
11) Russell
12) Kobe
13) Barkley
14) Moses
15) Robinson

So no, there are not 15 players better than Kobe, in the history of the NBA.

Gotta love the troll.

[coolnerd88]

^--- Think about it this way....you want to generate points as efficiently as possible.

How can you generate points? Some combination of twos, threes, and FTs.

And what do we mean by "efficiency"? Well, we mean the number of shot attempts you use. This is all TS% really is.....points divided by True Shooting Attempts. The only wrinkle is that TSA also counts FTs as shot attempts...each FT is .44 of an attempt (if you think about it, this makes sense...FTs aren't quite free. A guy who is a 15% free throw shooter will cost his team a lot of possessions if/when the other team decides to hack him and send him to the line.)

Anyway, Kobe's TS% is above average. And since he scores so many points on above-average efficiency, while creating for himself and others, he gets tons of credit.

So Kobe's ability to get hot and get to the line helps his TS percentage?..I can dig that but my problem is what about the times he chucks his way to 25+ points on like 43% shooting...which is usually what happens when he doesn't have the go "60 in 3 qtrs, Kobe type of outbursts"...Is that the flaw in the statistic or or does it account for that too?

[Vincent 666]

Vincent- I've seen Shaq play with a PG combination of a young Fisher (who couldn't guard a barn) and Mike friggin' Penberthy! So don't try that crap. I've also seen Shaq lead a team to the finals coached by Bryan Hill.

um.

that team had some guy named Kobe Bryant taking care of all the perimeter duties like initiating and facilitating the offense.

Shaq on the 2005 team would be playing with Chuckyy Atkins at PG and Deveon George at SG.

Factor in injuries and that team easily finishes in the lottery.

[bigrussia]

i dont why i'm a kobe hater when the facts are that bynum is very injury prone, and that fact that perkins went down in game 6 was a fluke occurrence, that directly and obviously impacted game 7.
if every team in the league was healthy for the last 3 years, the celtics probably win 3 in a row (which i think they proved in 08 and last season), and that somehow makes me a hater...

anyway why is there a problem with saying duncan/hakeem/shaq are better to have on a team because they're big men... that puts kobe somewhere at 10-12, yet i read post saying your a hater if kobe isn't top 7-10 automatically....

[Vincent 666]

i dont why i'm a kobe hater when the facts are that bynum is very injury prone, and that fact that perkins went down in game 6 was a fluke occurrence, that directly and obviously impacted game 7.

How so?

Game 7 was defensive oriented. Id dont see how an offensively challenged player like Perkins would have made such a big difference in a game like that.

His replacement Wallace actually gave the Celtics some good offense to start the game.........more than Perkins ever did against the Lakers.

[jaypo]

i dont why i'm a kobe hater when the facts are that bynum is very injury prone, and that fact that perkins went down in game 6 was a fluke occurrence, that directly and obviously impacted game 7.
if every team in the league was healthy for the last 3 years, the celtics probably win 3 in a row (which i think they proved in 08 and last season), and that somehow makes me a hater...

anyway why is there a problem with saying duncan/hakeem/shaq are better to have on a team because they're big men... that puts kobe somewhere at 10-12, yet i read post saying your a hater if kobe isn't top 7-10 automatically....

Because, BigRussia- don't you know that if you don't suck Kobe's azz, then you're a hater??? (Just kidding!) I'm glad I'm not the only one that sees the truth!

Okay, Vincent. Kobe initiated and facilitated the offense. Well let me ask you this. Was Kobe the point guard? No.Because the point guard facilitated the offense. What offense did they run? Triple post. Who was the focus? The center. Who was the center? Shaq. Who created the flow of the offense? Shaq- by design.

And while you're so focused on Kobe doing all of the perimeter duties (like stopping Bibby, Hudson, and Parker from torching the Lakers on a continual basis!!), I counter you with the fact that Shaq was busy taking care of the paint! And on those championship teams, was it in the paint that there was trouble containing opposing teams? No. It was on the perimeter. The guards carved up the Lakers constantly. So Shaq was the focus of the offense and the anchor of the defense (which was #1 in the league in 01). So you can argue with me about Kobe as this and that, but you can't argue that point, can you?? And I will say with 100% confidence that it was Shaq's dominance that feuled those title teams.

[USA]

When Shaq was removed from the Lakers, Kobe couldn't even get them into the playoffs. Do you think that if Kobe were traded, Shaq would have missed the playoffs the following year? I'm pretty sure that if Shaq had Caron Butler and Lamar Odom, the Lakers wouldn't have dropped off as much as they did in 05. Secondly, Shaq DID win Squat with Penny. He got the the Finals, and went thru Jordan's Bulls to get there.

LOL.
1.Shaq wasn't the only one being replace.
2.You are comparing losing Shaq and replacing him with Chris Mihn and losing Kobe and replacing him with Caron Butler & Lamar Odom. Really?
3. That team was built around Shaq and not Kobe. Of course there were going to be issues. We won't even get into new coaches and offensive system.

I have to hand it to you though, you do try to add some different angle to your arguments. You are determined.


Kobe has accomplished more in 6 years without Shaq than Shaq has in 10 years without Kobe.

[Wavy Q]

Kobe's impact is about equal to Barkley's, so anyone that has had a better career than Barkley gets my vote. That list is:

1) Wilt
2) Hakeem
3) Kareem
4) Malone
5) Jordan
6) Duncan
7) Magic
8) Bird
9) Shaq
10) Ewing
11) Russell
12) Kobe
13) Barkley
14) Moses
15) Robinson

So no, there are not 15 players better than Kobe, in the history of the NBA.

Gotta love the troll.

the dude's not even a troll, he actually believes this, he's said it before.

[Vincent 666]

And on those championship teams, was it in the paint that there was trouble containing opposing teams? No. It was on the perimeter. The guards carved up the Lakers constantly.

Actually is was the pick and roll with players like Bibby, Hudson, and Billups.

Who were teams constantly using to set the pick?

Shaqs man.

You think thats a coincidence?

Shaqs inability to defend the pick and roll (along with Fisher) is a big reason why PGs (and not general perimeter players) killed the Lakers.

[jaypo]

When Shaq was removed from the Lakers, Kobe couldn't even get them into the playoffs. Do you think that if Kobe were traded, Shaq would have missed the playoffs the following year? I'm pretty sure that if Shaq had Caron Butler and Lamar Odom, the Lakers wouldn't have dropped off as much as they did in 05. Secondly, Shaq DID win Squat with Penny. He got the the Finals, and went thru Jordan's Bulls to get there.

LOL.
1.Shaq wasn't the only one being replace.
2.You are comparing losing Shaq and replacing him with Chris Mihn and losing Kobe and replacing him with Caron Butler & Lamar Odom. Really?
3. This team was built around Shaq and not Kobe. You expect instant gratification? We won't even get into new coaches and offensive system.

I have to hand it to you though, you do try to add some different angle to your arguments. You are determined.


Kobe has accomplished more in 6 years without Shaq than Shaq has in 10 years without Kobe.

Well, as far as instant gratification, Shaq did put up an MVP type season in 05 and made it to the ECF and won a title in 06. And in those 10 years without Kobe, he has been to the finals with 2 different teams, neither of which were the consensus best team in the league around him coached by the GOAT coach, now, were they?

No, I'm comparing trading Kobe for the same pieces that Shaq was traded for. I'm saying that instead of trading Shaq in 04, they traded Kobe for the exact same pieces. And Kobe had Rudy T coaching him, not Brian friggin' Hill! But Rudy T must have thought the same thing that Phil Jackson thought- that Kobe was uncoachable- and he bailed right before Kobe said HE would!

[Vinsanity420]

]So Kobe's ability to get hot and get to the line helps his TS percentage?..I can dig that but my problem is what about the times he chucks his way to 25+ points on like 43% shooting...which is usually what happens when he doesn't have the go "60 in 3 qtrs, Kobe type of outbursts"...Is that the flaw in the statistic or or does it account for that too?

I don't get what what you mean by this - "Kobe's ability to get hot and get to the line helps his TS percentage". He's the best rhythm shooter in the league, and that's why he goes through all those outbursts and all those cold shooting games... but they still, over the course of the season, average out to be a solid TS%. The GOAL of the game is to put more points on the board than your opponent, by drawing fouls, taking 3's, etc... TS% measures that the best.

Now, you said he isn't as efficient a scorer as LeBron - that's true for last couple seasons - where he average 59 TS% and 60 TS% . LeBron's career TS %'s are not as high because in his earlier seasons he wasn't remotely as efficient. In his rookie season, for example, he average a terrible 48.8 TS%.

But you're calling Kobe "inefficient"... that's not true at all.

[Vincent 666]

Well, as far as instant gratification, Shaq did put up an MVP type season in 05 and made it to the ECF and won a title in 06. And in those 10 years without Kobe, he has been to the finals with 2 different teams, neither of which were the consensus best team in the league around him coached by the GOAT coach, now, were they?

Typical overrating of Kobes cast.

Gasol. Odom and a bunch of role players is not some powerhouse team.

Id argue Melos cast was just as good or better, same with Nash, Pierce, and Dwight.

People focus way to much on who has the best 2nd best option to determine who was the better cast.

[jaypo]

And on those championship teams, was it in the paint that there was trouble containing opposing teams? No. It was on the perimeter. The guards carved up the Lakers constantly.

Actually is was the pick and roll with players like Bibby, Hudson, and Billups.

Who were teams constantly using to set the pick?

Shaqs man.

You think thats a coincidence?

Shaqs inability to defend the pick and roll (along with Fisher) is a big reason why PGs (and not general perimeter players) killed the Lakers.

What next? Are you gonna pin the fact that players like Wallace, Duncan, and Webber torched the Lakers on Shaq too???? Dude, give it up! Shaq was the best player in the league during their title runs! He was the most dominant player of our generation! There's nothing you can say or do that will erase history! Kobe has been the most talented and determined player since Jordan. But he still was not better as a teammate than Shaq! Let me put it into perspective- Shaq said some bad things about people on his way out. That is what he gets criticized on. Not whether or not he was a cancer in the locker room. But saying things about people! Kobe broke up a dynasty because he admitted that he would not settle for being #2. Which was the worse offense?

[jaypo]

Well, as far as instant gratification, Shaq did put up an MVP type season in 05 and made it to the ECF and won a title in 06. And in those 10 years without Kobe, he has been to the finals with 2 different teams, neither of which were the consensus best team in the league around him coached by the GOAT coach, now, were they?

Typical overrating of Kobes cast.

Gasol. Odom and a bunch of role players is not some powerhouse team.

Id argue Melos cast was just as good or better, same with Nash, Pierce, and Dwight.

People focus way to much on who has the best 2nd best option to determine who was the better cast.

Well, then, you're contradicting the experts at ESPN! Because even before the season, they agreed that Kobe had the best supporting cast in the league. But it's typical of you guys to underrate the supporting cast to prop up Kobe. Are you gonna say that Phil was just an average coach too?