SoTD: Bargnani's defensive numbers over 4 years

[Ripp]

So his defense has regressed every season.....

Ya, this is why stats shouldn't be taken too seriously

As others have stated, transitioning from a bench to a starting role puts a lot more pressure on you defensively. So even if we believe that he may have improved his defense by an epsilon amount, the offensive talent of playing against starters might wash over any defensive improvement...

[dacrusha]

So his defense has regressed every season.....

Ya, this is why stats shouldn't be taken too seriously

Are you saying that he has actually improved defensively over the past 4 years?

[Courtside]

On their own, the numbers tell us several things. I think we need to see the overall team rating for these 4 years, as well as the other players during those same years.

For example - if the team drtg went from 102 to 106 to 110 to 116 over those same 4 years - then picking one guy out of the bunch while ignoring the others is kinda pointless. Can we take the starters over the past 4 years and do the same on/off numbers, to see if their numbers follow the same pattern? If they do - or don't - it helps us put Andrea's numbers into a more clear context.

Is that hard to do, ss?

[Reignman]

You know, I find it so silly that people take this crap seriously. Are you, through your statistics trying to say Andrea got WORSE defensively each year? Seriously?
I can't stand this numbers crap anymore. Anyone who understands basketball knows that numbers mean so much less than most on this board give them credit for. I bet by numbers, Shareef was a positive player on (W/L)

Actually, I don't need stats to tell me that, Andrea played his best D in the first half of 08/09 playing off the bench behind JO. Once JO was traded and Andrea was starting his defense regressed while his offense improved. Then last year his defense was a mess from the start of the season right to the end of the season and the worst part was that he got the most mins on the team.

Yep, I can definitly see why the stats look that way.

[jonny three time]

So his defense has regressed every season.....

Ya, this is why stats shouldn't be taken too seriously

Are you saying that he has actually improved defensively over the past 4 years?

Absolutely

Take his second year as an example. The guy couldn't guard his own shadow, was constantly being pulled by Smitch and was dredful for most of the year. Not only that but the team he was on was actually better than the past 2 seasons. Yet the numbers indicate that he was a solid enough defender for the team to get by nearly the same with him on the court or not. Which is nonsense, anyone who followed the team that year could see that the team struggled at both ends for the majority of the time that he played.

Then look at the last 2 seasons, where he's on a weaker team, is visibly a more solid defender, and yet his number regress that much. Come on man, I'm not buying it and it's just another example of one stat that being used to push an agenda.

It's nonsense to think he's regressed as a defender over the past 2 years and also nonsense to think that he's 9 points worse per 100 of a defender than what he was as a rookie.

[OvertimeNO]

Are you saying that he has actually improved defensively over the past 4 years?

With a gun to your head, who would you rather guard Dwight Howard: 2010 Bargnani, or 2006 Bargnani?

[Reignman]

So his defense has regressed every season.....

Ya, this is why stats shouldn't be taken too seriously

Are you saying that he has actually improved defensively over the past 4 years?

Absolutely

Take his second year as an example. The guy couldn't guard his own shadow, was constantly being pulled by Smitch and was dredful for most of the year. Not only that but the team he was on was actually better than the past 2 seasons. Yet the numbers indicate that he was a solid enough defender for the team to get by nearly the same with him on the court or not. Which is nonsense, anyone who followed the team that year could see that the team struggled at both ends for the majority of the time that he played.

Then look at the last 2 seasons, where he's on a weaker team, is visibly a more solid defender, and yet his number regress that much. Come on man, I'm not buying it and it's just another example of one stat that being used to push an agenda.

It's nonsense to think he's regressed as a defender over the past 2 years and also nonsense to think that he's 9 points worse per 100 of a defender than what he was as a rookie.[/quote]

Why is it nonsense? His already bad-defense was exasperated by his increased offensive role and going from the bench to the starting lineup. Seems like common sense to me.

[Reignman]

Are you saying that he has actually improved defensively over the past 4 years?

With a gun to your head, who would you rather guard Dwight Howard: 2010 Bargnani, or 2006 Bargnani?

Well in 2006 he was playing off the bench and was probably about 20-30 lbs lighter.

[dacrusha]

So his defense has regressed every season.....

Ya, this is why stats shouldn't be taken too seriously

Are you saying that he has actually improved defensively over the past 4 years?

Absolutely

Take his second year as an example. The guy couldn't guard his own shadow, was constantly being pulled by Smitch and was dredful for most of the year. Not only that but the team he was on was actually better than the past 2 seasons. Yet the numbers indicate that he was a solid enough defender for the team to get by nearly the same with him on the court or not. Which is nonsense, anyone who followed the team that year could see that the team struggled at both ends for the majority of the time that he played.

Then look at the last 2 seasons, where he's on a weaker team, is visibly a more solid defender, and yet his number regress that much. Come on man, I'm not buying it and it's just another example of one stat that being used to push an agenda.

It's nonsense to think he's regressed as a defender over the past 2 years and also nonsense to think that he's 9 points worse per 100 of a defender than what he was as a rookie.

One stat? This past year his DRTG, BLK%, STL% and DRB% all went down as compared to 2008-09. And no, visably he has not become a more solid defender. Did you miss the layup drills that took place game after game after game last year?

[MrBojangelz71]

On their own, the numbers tell us several things. I think we need to see the overall team rating for these 4 years, as well as the other players during those same years.

For example - if the team drtg went from 102 to 106 to 110 to 116 over those same 4 years - then picking one guy out of the bunch while ignoring the others is kinda pointless. Can we take the starters over the past 4 years and do the same on/off numbers, to see if their numbers follow the same pattern? If they do - or don't - it helps us put Andrea's numbers into a more clear context.

Is that hard to do, ss?

Agreed.

Problem is our starting unit has changed so much over this span, you would be taking players' numbers from their previous teams and comparing that to their numbers with us, which is pointless.

[OvertimeNO]

Well in 2006 he was playing off the bench and was probably about 20-30 lbs lighter.

With a gun to your head, who would you rather guard Dwight Howard: 2010 Bargnani, or 2006 Bargnani?

[andreafan]

So ss, we would of won 46.3 games last year with a frontcourt of reggie evans and amir johnson with chris bosh injured. I told you before that stats are not the be all and end all . You just started another andrea bashing thread congradulations.

[Reignman]

Well in 2006 he was playing off the bench and was probably about 20-30 lbs lighter.

With a gun to your head, who would you rather guard Dwight Howard: 2010 Bargnani, or 2006 Bargnani?

I'll take the bigger guy, but that doesn't mean his defense improved.

Edit: Just to clarify I don't think many people have an issue with his man D, which is the scenario you laid out, it's really the help side D that is the concern.

[Local_NG_Idiot]

Well in 2006 he was playing off the bench and was probably about 20-30 lbs lighter.

With a gun to your head, who would you rather guard Dwight Howard: 2010 Bargnani, or 2006 Bargnani?

Get beat up, out muscled, dunked on continuously, and outrebounded for 35 minutes OR stand out at the 3pt line, guard against the drive and contest long range shots for 35 minutes......

Gosh, that's a tough call.

Edit: woops, mis-interpreted your question, thought you were asking who I'd rather guard if I had a gun to my head.

[OvertimeNO]

Get beat up, out muscled, dunked on continuously, and outrebounded for 35 minutes OR stand out at the 3pt line, guard against the drive and contest long range shots for 35 minutes......

Gosh, that's a tough call.

With a gun to your head, who would you rather guard Dwight Howard: 2010 Bargnani, or 2006 Bargnani?

[Pchu]

His numbers were better in his first 2 seasons, is probably due to the fact that he was surrounded by better defensive players.

Just a theory anyway.

[Reignman]

So ss, we would of won 46.3 games last year with a frontcourt of reggie evans and amir johnson with chris bosh injured. I told you before that stats are not the be all and end all . You just started another andrea bashing thread congradulations.

Don't look at it like that, put it in context. His defense has clearly been bad, if you watch the Raps you'll know that immediately. This just points us in that same direction.

[Reignman]

His numbers were better in his first 2 seasons, is probably due to the fact that he was surrounded by better defensive players.

Just a theory anyway.

And he came off the bench and he wasn't playing as many mins.

[Local_NG_Idiot]

His numbers were better in his first 2 seasons, is probably due to the fact that he was surrounded by better defensive players.

Just a theory anyway.

And he came off the bench and he wasn't playing as many mins.

And his first 2 years was the Smitch defensive system vs. the Triano defensive system.

plus on/off relies on who's subbing in for him: 1st 2 years: Bosh, Hump, Brezec, Rasho. last 2 years: JO, Amir, Reggie, Pops.

[andreafan]

i direct you to the latvia italy thread andrea is tearing it up.