SoTD: Bargnani's defensive numbers over 4 years

[Truthrising]

On their own, the numbers tell us several things. I think we need to see the overall team rating for these 4 years, as well as the other players during those same years.

For example - if the team drtg went from 102 to 106 to 110 to 116 over those same 4 years - then picking one guy out of the bunch while ignoring the others is kinda pointless. Can we take the starters over the past 4 years and do the same on/off numbers, to see if their numbers follow the same pattern? If they do - or don't - it helps us put Andrea's numbers into a more clear context.

Is that hard to do, ss?

Agreed.

Problem is our starting unit has changed so much over this span, you would be taking players' numbers from their previous teams and comparing that to their numbers with us, which is pointless.

Im wondering how bosh's drtg would be over those same 4 yrs, might as well include Calderon since all 3 we're on the same team for the past 4 yrs.

[andreafan]

One term "team defense" wins championships just ask the celtics , so just put better man defenders around andrea, problem solved .

[Scott Carefoot]

As soon as I saw the thread title, I knew this would be an entertaining thread. Anyway, here's some more anecdotal evidence that the Raptors' defence is worse the more Bargnani plays.

2007-08
Team Defensive Rating: 13th in NBA
Bargnani's minutes played: 1,861

2008-09
Team Defensive Rating: 22nd in NBA
Bargnani's minutes played: 2,453

2009-10
Team Defensive Rating: 30th in NBA
Bargnani's minutes played: 2,799

But hey, correlation does not equal causation so... carry on.

*starts eating popcorn*

[strangespot]

his help D has been bad, no way of denying that.

Probably the reason why his drtg has gotten worse in his last two years is simply because he has begun playing steadily at C only in his last 1,5 seasons. Learn to play C is difficult enough let alone on the defensive end where the C position is probably the most sensitive, add to that a guy like Bargs who is a totally offensive minded player, having to learn the most difficult defensive position in the NBA. at least he doesnt back down from nobody when it comes to his man to man D

[andreafan]

As soon as I saw the thread title, I knew this would be an entertaining thread. Anyway, here's some more anecdotal evidence that the Raptors' defence is worse the more Bargnani plays.

2007-08
Team Defensive Rating: 13th in NBA
Bargnani's minutes played: 1,861

2008-09
Team Defensive Rating: 22nd in NBA
Bargnani's minutes played: 2,453

2009-10
Team Defensive Rating: 30th in NBA
Bargnani's minutes played: 2,799

But hey, correlation does not equal causation so... carry on.

*starts eating popcorn*

Scott i believe calderon was on the court during those minutes also , hint hint

[DG88]

As soon as I saw the thread title, I knew this would be an entertaining thread. Anyway, here's some more anecdotal evidence that the Raptors' defence is worse the more Bargnani plays.

2007-08
Team Defensive Rating: 13th in NBA
Bargnani's minutes played: 1,861

2008-09
Team Defensive Rating: 22nd in NBA
Bargnani's minutes played: 2,453

2009-10
Team Defensive Rating: 30th in NBA
Bargnani's minutes played: 2,799

But hey, correlation does not equal causation so... carry on.

*starts eating popcorn*

*brings a huge bucket of Orville Rendenbachers and sits beside Scott*

[Reignman]

Since many of you bash SS for providing these stats that show Bargs' D in a negative light, how about this, can you guys dig up some stats that show Bargs in a positive light on defense? If SS is picking/choosing stats to support his agenda there has got to be stats that show the opposite correct?

The only positive defensive stats I've seen for Bargs came from the Synergy Sports thread where it showed his Post up / Man D being good. Also, his raw shot-blocking number of 1.5 is good. Other than that you guys got anything?

[TMMC]

When you play with Jose Calderon what do you expect?

Was curious though what his defensive stats are with team Italy this summer, any numbers out there SS?

[andreafan]

So all of the defensive woes of the raptors fall on andrea's shoulders , unfrigginbelievable. Trade his ass for peanuts now i am done with him .

[Reg00]

Over 82 games, with Bargnani, the team is a 35.8-win team. Without Bargnani, the team is a 46.3 win team.Discuss.

Riiiight. Carry on Stat-heads, carry on.

[TMMC]

Since many of you bash SS for providing these stats that show Bargs' D in a negative light, how about this, can you guys dig up some stats that show Bargs in a positive light on defense? If SS is picking/choosing stats to support his agenda there has got to be stats that show the opposite correct?

The only positive defensive stats I've seen for Bargs came from the Synergy Sports thread where it showed his Post up / Man D being good. Also, his raw shot-blocking number of 1.5 is good. Other than that you guys got anything?

Providing stats which show a positive spin on this subject is not going to happen simply because this team and all of its players have been a nightmare defensively for the past few years.... However to try and pin it all on Bargs is ridiculous, the players who are on the floor with him also have a large impact on the numbers....

[Reignman]

So all of the defensive woes of the raptors fall on andrea's shoulders , unfrigginbelievable. Trade his ass for peanuts now i am done with him .

Stop getting all emo. I don't think anyone believes our 30th ranked defense was ALL andrea's fault.

But being the starting C you gotta understand a big part of team defense rests on his shoulders. It might suck but that's the reality of it.

[OvertimeNO]

As soon as I saw the thread title, I knew this would be an entertaining thread. Anyway, here's some more anecdotal evidence that the Raptors' defence is worse the more Bargnani plays.

2007-08
Team Defensive Rating: 13th in NBA
Bargnani's minutes played: 1,861

2008-09
Team Defensive Rating: 22nd in NBA
Bargnani's minutes played: 2,453

2009-10
Team Defensive Rating: 30th in NBA
Bargnani's minutes played: 2,799

But hey, correlation does not equal causation so... carry on.

*starts eating popcorn*

Notice the huge dip in January 2009, when everyone started talking about Bargnani's supposed "turnaround". COINCIDENCE????1!1!!ONE!!!ELEVENTY?!!

[TMMC]

So all of the defensive woes of the raptors fall on andrea's shoulders , unfrigginbelievable. Trade his ass for peanuts now i am done with him .

Stop getting all emo. I don't think anyone believes our 30th ranked defense was ALL andrea's fault.

But being the starting C you gotta understand a big part of team defense rests on his shoulders. It might suck but that's the reality of it.

If I'm not mistaken Chris Bosh played more minutes at center this season than Bargs did, some where around 60% of the time I believe...

[Reignman]

Since many of you bash SS for providing these stats that show Bargs' D in a negative light, how about this, can you guys dig up some stats that show Bargs in a positive light on defense? If SS is picking/choosing stats to support his agenda there has got to be stats that show the opposite correct?

The only positive defensive stats I've seen for Bargs came from the Synergy Sports thread where it showed his Post up / Man D being good. Also, his raw shot-blocking number of 1.5 is good. Other than that you guys got anything?

Providing stats which show a positive spin on this subject is not going to happen simply because this team and all of its players have been a nightmare defensively for the past few years.... However to try and pin it all on Bargs is ridiculous, the players who are on the floor with him also have a large impact on the numbers....

Well, you can pull stats that show Amir in a great light, same for Sonny. Even Bosh can be shown as an average to above average defender, so why can't we do it for Bargs?

[Reignman]

So all of the defensive woes of the raptors fall on andrea's shoulders , unfrigginbelievable. Trade his ass for peanuts now i am done with him .

Stop getting all emo. I don't think anyone believes our 30th ranked defense was ALL andrea's fault.

But being the starting C you gotta understand a big part of team defense rests on his shoulders. It might suck but that's the reality of it.

If I'm not mistaken Chris Bosh played more minutes at center this season than Bargs did, some where around 60% of the time I believe...

Believe me, nobody is calling Bosh as DPOY either but you can show that Bosh was average.

[cdel00]

If SS is picking/choosing stats to support his agenda there has got to be stats that show the opposite correct?

I stand by Sub who has always been very Swiss when it comes to providing numbers. Sub was the one who showed Bargs strengths on D too in previous threads.

[Ripp]

As soon as I saw the thread title, I knew this would be an entertaining thread. Anyway, here's some more anecdotal evidence that the Raptors' defence is worse the more Bargnani plays.

2007-08
Team Defensive Rating: 13th in NBA
Bargnani's minutes played: 1,861

2008-09
Team Defensive Rating: 22nd in NBA
Bargnani's minutes played: 2,453

2009-10
Team Defensive Rating: 30th in NBA
Bargnani's minutes played: 2,799

But hey, correlation does not equal causation so... carry on.

*starts eating popcorn*

*brings a huge bucket of Orville Rendenbachers and sits beside Scott*

Interesting part is that Jose's minutes have actually gone down over that time period:

2484
2333
1817

A lot of us assume that Jose should get the lion's share of the blame for the Raps defensive issues, but is this really true? Really makes you wonder.

[dacrusha]

On their own, the numbers tell us several things. I think we need to see the overall team rating for these 4 years, as well as the other players during those same years.

For example - if the team drtg went from 102 to 106 to 110 to 116 over those same 4 years - then picking one guy out of the bunch while ignoring the others is kinda pointless. Can we take the starters over the past 4 years and do the same on/off numbers, to see if their numbers follow the same pattern? If they do - or don't - it helps us put Andrea's numbers into a more clear context.

Is that hard to do, ss?

Agreed.

Problem is our starting unit has changed so much over this span, you would be taking players' numbers from their previous teams and comparing that to their numbers with us, which is pointless.

Im wondering how bosh's drtg would be over those same 4 yrs, might as well include Calderon since all 3 we're on the same team for the past 4 yrs.

Last year's numbers:

Code: Select all

Name    DRTG/ON  DRTG/OFF
bargs   116.9    108.3
turk    116.1    111.9
jose    116.0    112.9
derozan 115.9    113.1
jack    114.8    113.6
bosh    113.6    115.6
weems   113.4    114.8
wright  111.8    115.7
johnson 109.2    117.3
evans   104.7    115.1

[OvertimeNO]

A lot of us assume that Jose should get the lion's share of the blame for the Raps defensive issues, but is this really true? Really makes you wonder.

According to the Stats, no.