ImageImageImageImageImage

SoTD: Bargnani's defensive numbers over 4 years

Moderators: Morris_Shatford, 7 Footer, DG88, niQ, Duffman100, tsherkin, Reeko, lebron stopper, HiJiNX

User avatar
Undefeated
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 23,428
And1: 7,105
Joined: Mar 17, 2009
 

Re: SoTD: Bargnani's defensive numbers over 4 years 

Post#61 » by Undefeated » Fri Aug 20, 2010 7:42 pm

It’s a given that Bargnani is inept on the defensive end. As long as Bargnani is playing a major role for the Raptors in the frontcourt, the Raptors are never going to become a top defensive team unless they have Dwight Howard being their last line of defense. But the Raptors becoming a middle of the pack defensive team isn’t out of the realm with Bargnani though. I think this is the best goal the Raptors should aim for while continuing to have a top offense because a few teams have shown they can get deep into the post-season under this situation such as the Denver Nuggets and Houston Rockets. If the Raptors do find themselves in this position while Bargnani continuing to be a net positive on offense, things should look good.

The thing that bothers me the most is that, Bargnani DOES have what it takes to become an average help defender, but chooses not to provide that level of help defense on a consistent basis. Why? I don’t know. No one ever holds Bargnani accountable, so that’s probably why. If the coaching staff starts holding him accountable, you’ll start seeing things change and hopefully P.J. Carlesimo is that no non-sense type coach for Bargnani.

Now, I made a hypothesis a while back would the Raptors be at least respectable on the defense with at least one capable defender (Sonny Weems and/or Antoine Wright) who could at least offer a bit of resistance. Looking at the top ten most used line-ups from the Raptors last season, I took the line-up that at least had Sonny and/or Antoine with Bargnani as C, to see their DRtg.

Code: Select all

Units                                                             DRtg

Jack – DeRozan – Turkoglu – Bargnani – Bosh                      116.27
Calderon – DeRozan – Turkoglu – Bargnani – Bosh                  115.34
Calderon – Jack – Turkoglu – Bargnani – Bosh                     125.78
Calderon – Weems – Wright – Bargnani – Bosh                      111.01
Jack – Weems – Turkoglu – Bargnani – Bosh                        109.47
Calderon – Wright – Turkoglu – Bargnani – Bosh                   125.50
Jack – Weems – Wright – Bargnani – Bosh                          103.17
Jack – DeRozan – Turkoglu – Bargnani – Nesterovic                129.66
Calderon – Weems – Turkoglu – Johnson – Bargnani                 110.69
Jack – Weems – Wright – Bargnani – Bosh                          90.0     


As you can see, Bargnani appear in 6 different line-ups with at least one of Sonny or Antoine. Together, those line-up yield an average DRtg of 108.30 which would put them around 15 to 18 in the league in DRtg standings which is pretty good.
Basketball is like poetry in motion, cross the guy to the left, take him back to the right, he's fallin back, then just J right in his face. Then you look at him and say, "What?" - Jesus Shuttlesworth
cdel00
Head Coach
Posts: 6,739
And1: 424
Joined: Apr 12, 2007

Re: SoTD: Bargnani's defensive numbers over 4 years 

Post#62 » by cdel00 » Fri Aug 20, 2010 7:43 pm

if I may shout:

TEAM DEFENSE REQUIRES CHEMISTRY!

CHEMISTRY IS HARD TO BUILD WHEN YOU SWAP 3/4 OF THE ROSTER EVERY YEAR!

i am done now.
roundhead0
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,070
And1: 668
Joined: Apr 24, 2008

Re: SoTD: Bargnani's defensive numbers over 4 years 

Post#63 » by roundhead0 » Fri Aug 20, 2010 7:44 pm

I think that any objective observer will tell you that yes, Bargnani's defense has improved over the last 4 years but no, he is still not a good defender.

Unfortunately, these stats do not portray some of the potentially important variables. One has been pointed out quite frequently: his transition to playing against starters, and so it's not surprising that his absolute defensive numbers would drop, and that his replacement might look better.

Another important change was the firing of Sam Mitchell and replacing him with Triano. Mitchell was not a great coach, but his teams played reasonably well defensively. The team's defense under Triano has looked absolutely terrible. Bargnani is a poor help defender and so what do we have? A team that leaves guys open to charge towards the basket, relying on interior help all the time. I mean, is Triano blind or something? Or is he so in love with/proud of a system that he cannot change from it?

Furthermore, BC seems to have kept shifting the team personnel more and more to offense and the defense last year finally hit rock bottom. The first unit was full of ball handlers and no defense, and the reserves had little offense but reasonable amounts of defense.

To give it more context we might need to take another look at the minutes played per 5-man units, to see if we can see a pattern of what units struggled and if those indivduals did better as part of different 5-man units.

In the end, Bargnani is still a poor defender and he still needs to get better. However, I really think that he was put into a situation with a defense that he could not handle, and the inability or refusal of the coaches to adapt to what they had has really hurt this team over the past 2 seasons, and the poor job by Colangelo in building a proper team gets much of the blame too. Basically, they turned bad defenders into a horror show.
Local_NG_Idiot
RealGM
Posts: 11,587
And1: 3,563
Joined: Apr 24, 2003

Re: SoTD: Bargnani's defensive numbers over 4 years 

Post#64 » by Local_NG_Idiot » Fri Aug 20, 2010 7:48 pm

TMMC wrote:
Reignman wrote:
andreafan wrote:So all of the defensive woes of the raptors fall on andrea's shoulders , unfrigginbelievable. Trade his ass for peanuts now i am done with him . :roll:


Stop getting all emo. I don't think anyone believes our 30th ranked defense was ALL andrea's fault.

But being the starting C you gotta understand a big part of team defense rests on his shoulders. It might suck but that's the reality of it.


If I'm not mistaken Chris Bosh played more minutes at center this season than Bargs did, some where around 60% of the time I believe...


...And yet Bosh's on/off net DRtg for last season was -2.1 (113.6 on / 115.6 off).

btw Bosh in 06-07 was a -1.7, 07-08 was a -3.0, 08-09 was a +1.7

So regardless of teamates, system, position played, etc... Bosh has stay relatively consistent with the net defensive on/off (a slightly positive impact).
Basketball_Jones
RealGM
Posts: 30,670
And1: 17,969
Joined: Mar 09, 2004
     

Re: SoTD: Bargnani's defensive numbers over 4 years 

Post#65 » by Basketball_Jones » Fri Aug 20, 2010 7:50 pm

This thing is really only accurate for the starters. Amir's numbers are great, but he was obviously doing it off the bench and most of the time against other bench players. When off the floor, the starters return and the points allowed go up obviously. His numbers won't look this good next season when he's a starter.
2019 Eastern Conference All Stars

Derozan
Lowry
Ibaka
Valanciunas
Van Vleet
Delon Wright
Lebron
Embiid

There are only 2 teams in the league that rank in the top 6 in offensive and defensive efficiency: the Golden State Warriors and the Toronto Raptors.
The_Hater
GHOAT (Greatest Hater Of All Time)
Posts: 85,319
And1: 40,062
Joined: May 23, 2001
     

Re: SoTD: Bargnani's defensive numbers over 4 years 

Post#66 » by The_Hater » Fri Aug 20, 2010 7:55 pm

dacrusha wrote:Nothing to discuss.

You WILL hear plenty of excuses, though.


Crusha, you don't get any extra points for predicting something this obvious. 8-)
AthensBucks wrote:Lowry is done.
Nurse is below average at best.
Masai is overrated.
I dont get how so many people believe in the raptors,they have zero to chance to win it all.


April 14th, 2019.
User avatar
Kevin Willis
RealGM
Posts: 12,683
And1: 8,097
Joined: Apr 17, 2009
       

Re: SoTD: Bargnani's defensive numbers over 4 years 

Post#67 » by Kevin Willis » Fri Aug 20, 2010 7:55 pm

supersub15 wrote:

Code: Select all

Year       DRTG ON  DRTG OFF
2006-2007   107.8    105.9
2007-2008   108.7    107.0
2008-2009   113.1    106.2
2009-2010   116.9    108.3


Over 4 years, Bargnani's presence on/off:
DRTG ON: 110.54
DRTG OFF: 104.28

We are 6 points better defensively if Bargnani sits.

On offence though:
ORTG ON: 108.56
ORTG OFF: 106.23

We are 2 points worse off offensively if Bargnani sits.

Basically, Bargnani costs the team 4 points over 100 possessions.

Over 82 games, with Bargnani, the team is a 35.8-win team. Without Bargnani, the team is a 46.3 win team.

Discuss.


We've had a better bench than more than half of the nba.
When Chuck Norris was born the doc said "Congratulations, its a man"
User avatar
evenflow
Junior
Posts: 302
And1: 20
Joined: Jan 09, 2010

Re: SoTD: Bargnani's defensive numbers over 4 years 

Post#68 » by evenflow » Fri Aug 20, 2010 7:55 pm

Reignman wrote:Since many of you bash SS for providing these stats that show Bargs' D in a negative light, how about this, can you guys dig up some stats that show Bargs in a positive light on defense? If SS is picking/choosing stats to support his agenda there has got to be stats that show the opposite correct?

The only positive defensive stats I've seen for Bargs came from the Synergy Sports thread where it showed his Post up / Man D being good. Also, his raw shot-blocking number of 1.5 is good. Other than that you guys got anything?


I don't think anyone is arguing the stats, its more the BS extrapolation that they have a problem with.


His PDSS DRat is 110.0 The same as Bosh and .5 worst than Amir. Calderon sits at around 118. So there you go big shot, put that in your pipe and smoke it :lol:

Here is the link: http://www.mediafire.com/?k7hbzunay6uzt4n


One factor that gets over looked from last year is how horrible the team was at defending the 3 point line.

4th worst in Opp. 3 pt attempts - 20.3
3rd worst in Opp. 3 pt made - 7.4
4tth worst in Opp. 3 pt % - 36.6%

How come no one bleats about this?
'In the beginning the universe was created. This made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.'
strangespot
Pro Prospect
Posts: 905
And1: 88
Joined: Nov 30, 2008

Re: SoTD: Bargnani's defensive numbers over 4 years 

Post#69 » by strangespot » Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:01 pm

evenflow wrote:
Reignman wrote:Since many of you bash SS for providing these stats that show Bargs' D in a negative light, how about this, can you guys dig up some stats that show Bargs in a positive light on defense? If SS is picking/choosing stats to support his agenda there has got to be stats that show the opposite correct?

The only positive defensive stats I've seen for Bargs came from the Synergy Sports thread where it showed his Post up / Man D being good. Also, his raw shot-blocking number of 1.5 is good. Other than that you guys got anything?


I don't think anyone is arguing the stats, its more the BS extrapolation that they have a problem with.


His PDSS DRat is 110.0 The same as Bosh and .5 worst than Amir. Calderon sits at around 118. So there you go big shot, put that in your pipe and smoke it :lol:

Here is the link: http://www.mediafire.com/?k7hbzunay6uzt4n


One factor that gets looked over from last year is how horrible the team was at defending the 3 point line.

4th worst in Opp. 3 pt attempts - 20.3
3rd worst in Opp. 3 pt made - 7.4
4tth worst in Opp. 3 pt % - 36.6%

How come no one bleats about this?


wow, thats a good one :)
ZefSyde
Banned User
Posts: 126
And1: 0
Joined: Jul 28, 2010
Location: South Africa

Re: SoTD: Bargnani's defensive numbers over 4 years 

Post#70 » by ZefSyde » Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:02 pm

Ripp wrote:
jonny three time wrote:So his defense has regressed every season.....

Ya, this is why stats shouldn't be taken too seriously


As others have stated, transitioning from a bench to a starting role puts a lot more pressure on you defensively. So even if we believe that he may have improved his defense by an epsilon amount, the offensive talent of playing against starters might wash over any defensive improvement...



So we can say for sure Calderon is a much better defender than jack. Calderon plays most of his minutes vs starters while jack is defending scrubs.

Thanks for clearing that up for us!
Local_NG_Idiot
RealGM
Posts: 11,587
And1: 3,563
Joined: Apr 24, 2003

Re: SoTD: Bargnani's defensive numbers over 4 years 

Post#71 » by Local_NG_Idiot » Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:04 pm

ZefSyde wrote:
Ripp wrote:
jonny three time wrote:So his defense has regressed every season.....

Ya, this is why stats shouldn't be taken too seriously


As others have stated, transitioning from a bench to a starting role puts a lot more pressure on you defensively. So even if we believe that he may have improved his defense by an epsilon amount, the offensive talent of playing against starters might wash over any defensive improvement...



So we can say for sure Calderon is a much better defender than jack. Calderon plays most of his minutes vs starters while jack is defending scrubs.

Thanks for clearing that up for us!


Well except for the fact that Jack started more games the Calderon did last season.
The_Hater
GHOAT (Greatest Hater Of All Time)
Posts: 85,319
And1: 40,062
Joined: May 23, 2001
     

Re: SoTD: Bargnani's defensive numbers over 4 years 

Post#72 » by The_Hater » Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:06 pm

evenflow wrote:
Reignman wrote:Since many of you bash SS for providing these stats that show Bargs' D in a negative light, how about this, can you guys dig up some stats that show Bargs in a positive light on defense? If SS is picking/choosing stats to support his agenda there has got to be stats that show the opposite correct?

The only positive defensive stats I've seen for Bargs came from the Synergy Sports thread where it showed his Post up / Man D being good. Also, his raw shot-blocking number of 1.5 is good. Other than that you guys got anything?


I don't think anyone is arguing the stats, its more the BS extrapolation that they have a problem with.


His PDSS DRat is 110.0 The same as Bosh and .5 worst than Amir. Calderon sits at around 118. So there you go big shot, put that in your pipe and smoke it :lol:

Here is the link: http://www.mediafire.com/?k7hbzunay6uzt4n


One factor that gets looked over from last year is how horrible the team was at defending the 3 point line.

4th worst in Opp. 3 pt attempts - 20.3
3rd worst in Opp. 3 pt made - 7.4
4tth worst in Opp. 3 pt % - 36.6%

How come no one bleats about this?


Nobody is arguing that there weren't other, terrible defensive players on the roster or that there weren't other obvious issues like the 3-point shooting defense you mention above. Heck, you don't finish dead last in the league in team defense just because of 1 player. That truly requires a team effort with an inept coach directing them.

But SS is only using stats that show the difference between the team defense with and without Bargnani on the floor. So with these particular stats he's only being compared to the rest of his defensively inept teammates and the numbers don't look good. And it can't be viewed as a 1 year fluke because it's a fairly consistent graph for 4 years now. He's also had 2 different head coaches with the Raptor's ranging anywhere from an above average defensive unit to the terrible one they were last season.

Couple that with the generally agreed upon position that Center is the most important defensive position on the floor and it doesn't take a huge stretch to call Bargnani a bad defensive player to this point in his career. That doesn't mean that he will remain that way in the future, but I do have my doubts.
AthensBucks wrote:Lowry is done.
Nurse is below average at best.
Masai is overrated.
I dont get how so many people believe in the raptors,they have zero to chance to win it all.


April 14th, 2019.
ZefSyde
Banned User
Posts: 126
And1: 0
Joined: Jul 28, 2010
Location: South Africa

Re: SoTD: Bargnani's defensive numbers over 4 years 

Post#73 » by ZefSyde » Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:07 pm

Reg00 wrote:
supersub15 wrote:Over 82 games, with Bargnani, the team is a 35.8-win team. Without Bargnani, the team is a 46.3 win team.Discuss.


Riiiight. Carry on Stat-heads, carry on.


My brain hurts from trying to comprehend this stupid ass thread.
Reignman
Banned User
Posts: 19,281
And1: 391
Joined: Aug 12, 2004
Location: 2014 playoffs at the ACC!

Re: SoTD: Bargnani's defensive numbers over 4 years 

Post#74 » by Reignman » Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:11 pm

evenflow wrote:
Reignman wrote:Since many of you bash SS for providing these stats that show Bargs' D in a negative light, how about this, can you guys dig up some stats that show Bargs in a positive light on defense? If SS is picking/choosing stats to support his agenda there has got to be stats that show the opposite correct?

The only positive defensive stats I've seen for Bargs came from the Synergy Sports thread where it showed his Post up / Man D being good. Also, his raw shot-blocking number of 1.5 is good. Other than that you guys got anything?


I don't think anyone is arguing the stats, its more the BS extrapolation that they have a problem with.


His PDSS DRat is 110.0 The same as Bosh and .5 worst than Amir. Calderon sits at around 118. So there you go big shot, put that in your pipe and smoke it :lol:

Here is the link: http://www.mediafire.com/?k7hbzunay6uzt4n


One factor that gets over looked from last year is how horrible the team was at defending the 3 point line.

4th worst in Opp. 3 pt attempts - 20.3
3rd worst in Opp. 3 pt made - 7.4
4tth worst in Opp. 3 pt % - 36.6%

How come no one bleats about this?


Can someone explain the PDSS DRat to me? Never heard of it before.
Reignman
Banned User
Posts: 19,281
And1: 391
Joined: Aug 12, 2004
Location: 2014 playoffs at the ACC!

Re: SoTD: Bargnani's defensive numbers over 4 years 

Post#75 » by Reignman » Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:13 pm

ZefSyde wrote:
Reg00 wrote:
supersub15 wrote:Over 82 games, with Bargnani, the team is a 35.8-win team. Without Bargnani, the team is a 46.3 win team.Discuss.


Riiiight. Carry on Stat-heads, carry on.


My brain hurts from trying to comprehend this stupid ass thread.


Numbers aren't for everyone.
User avatar
Wandy
Junior
Posts: 297
And1: 0
Joined: Jul 17, 2010

Re: SoTD: Bargnani's defensive numbers over 4 years 

Post#76 » by Wandy » Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:13 pm

His numbers correspond with Calderon's injuries.
andreafan
Banned User
Posts: 1,782
And1: 1
Joined: May 01, 2010
Location: somewhere in canada ,not sure

Re: SoTD: Bargnani's defensive numbers over 4 years 

Post#77 » by andreafan » Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:15 pm

Andrea with a tidy 30 13 and 3 blocks against latvia. :o Take that haters . :)
TMMC
Banned User
Posts: 1,249
And1: 0
Joined: Jun 23, 2010

Re: SoTD: Bargnani's defensive numbers over 4 years 

Post#78 » by TMMC » Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:16 pm

Scott Carefoot wrote:As soon as I saw the thread title, I knew this would be an entertaining thread. Anyway, here's some more anecdotal evidence that the Raptors' defence is worse the more Bargnani plays.

2007-08
Team Defensive Rating: 13th in NBA
Bargnani's minutes played: 1,861

2008-09
Team Defensive Rating: 22nd in NBA
Bargnani's minutes played: 2,453

2009-10
Team Defensive Rating: 30th in NBA
Bargnani's minutes played: 2,799

But hey, correlation does not equal causation so... carry on.

*starts eating popcorn*


I don't think no one is saying Bargnani is a good defensive player but I think there is an arguement to be made that he is not as bad as some like to say.... You provide some interesting numbers but I believe that overhauling the roster every year hasn't helped this team defensively and I don't think you or anyone else would argue that year after year the players Colangelo has brought in here have been worse defensively than the year before... So imo you have to take into account that our roster is overhauled every year and the players coming in have been even worse defensively as the years goes by...
TMMC
Banned User
Posts: 1,249
And1: 0
Joined: Jun 23, 2010

Re: SoTD: Bargnani's defensive numbers over 4 years 

Post#79 » by TMMC » Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:19 pm

andreafan wrote:Andrea with a tidy 30 13 and 3 blocks against latvia. :o Take that haters . :)


Didn't you know blocks mean nothing, atleast that is what we are led to believe around these parts simply because Bargnani has shown he isn't to shabby at gettin a few swats a game... So we now call them fake blocks to go along with his fake points, rebounds and assists...
andreafan
Banned User
Posts: 1,782
And1: 1
Joined: May 01, 2010
Location: somewhere in canada ,not sure

Re: SoTD: Bargnani's defensive numbers over 4 years 

Post#80 » by andreafan » Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:21 pm

Sorry i meant 4 blocks , its all good . :D

Return to Toronto Raptors