Can you name 15 players in NBA history better than Kobe?

[ElGee]

My problem with TS with the alltime greats is that many times the biggest factor is the referee. If you have a good relationship with the ref and he has $5000 on the game betting for your team your TS is going to be higher. Your not a better player though. If FTs were taken out of TS then it becames credible. Oh and are tech foul shots also added into TS%? Is the ability to talk the coach into letting you shoot techs which are not FGAs realy a factor in greatness?

You're hitting at something extremely important, namely interpreting and understanding what statistics are representing. There will be no statistic that represents anything in a vacuum. Some are better than others, and TS% is pretty good at "efficiency on shooting attempts" or, points per shot.

Of course, technical free throws can affect the percentage. So can garbage time FTs. So can garbage time scoring. We could adjust for this if someone tracked them (hint hint, NBA), but they don't. Then, of course, we'd still be left with interpreting things like coaching scheme, teammate quality, shots against the buzzer -- we could call those Battier's -- and so on.

[Bruh Man]

My problem with TS with the alltime greats is that many times the biggest factor is the referee. If you have a good relationship with the ref and he has $5000 on the game betting for your team your TS is going to be higher. Your not a better player though. If FTs were taken out of TS then it becames credible. Oh and are tech foul shots also added into TS%? Is the ability to talk the coach into letting you shoot techs which are not FGAs realy a factor in greatness?

How much do technical foul shots affect TS%? I would think it makes no significant difference. As for refs being the biggest factor, I don't agree.

[Bruh Man]

double post

[B2Bhoops]

Peak play there have probably been 18 players better than him.

I highly doubt there are 18 players better than peak 06 drop 80+ in your face Kobe. I'd put 06 ( or 03 or whatever) Kobe against anybody ever with complete confidence.

If you want to argue prime then fine but prime is all about luck. If a players peak is parallel to his team's success then he is considered to have a better prime than another player who has a career that doesn't line up like that.

Anyone who uses 05 against Kobe is a straight up hater. That season was in shambles to the point that the only way it could have gotten worse is if the team plane crashed.

[italianleather]

Peak play there have probably been 18 players better than him.

I highly doubt there are 18 players better than peak 06 drop 80+ in your face Kobe. I'd put 06 ( or 03 or whatever) Kobe against anybody ever with complete confidence.

If you want to argue prime then fine but prime is all about luck. If a players peak is parallel to his team's success then he is considered to have a better prime than another player who has a career that doesn't line up like that.

Anyone who uses 05 against Kobe is a straight up hater. That season was in shambles to the point that the only way it could have gotten worse is if the team plane crashed.

Because lots of poster like to extrapolate stats, esp players scoring in the 28-30ppg region with great efficiency.

I don't really like this argument, equating players that score less but higher efficiency to players that score more but with lower efficiency.

If they are scoring that efficiently, that would typically mean that they are the best offensive option on that team, right? If that is the case, why are they not shooting more, hence scoring more, to help the team?

For eg Dantley, why didnt he break the 31ppg barrier? Couldnt he take more shots and avg 37-38ppg and help his team win more since he is that efficient?

More likely than not, I reckon that he couldnt. Be it stamina, character or ability to create (extra) offense.

I think Kobe's ability to create offense and stamina get seriously overlooked here. He can score in so many different ways make it tough for the defense to shut him out entirely.

The difference between a 35ppg and 30ppg is significant and should be brushed aside as "oh, if X player shoots Y shots more, he can do it too!". There is a reason why for the past 20(?) years, only 2 players managed to break the 35ppg barrier.

Oh Dantley is a great player by the way, though I've never seen him play, judging from his stats, it is nothing short of amazing.

[wallflower]

^ great post italian

[coolnerd88]

LOL Coolnerd88 doesn't understand math. Why are we even arguing anymore?

Oh I understand math VERY WELL...I, like warspite, have a problem with a stat that equates FT percentage in it..and I also have a problem with rewarding more difficult shots then others.

As far as I'm concern, a point is a point

[mademan]

LOL Coolnerd88 doesn't understand math. Why are we even arguing anymore?

Oh I understand math VERY WELL...I, like warspite, have a problem with a stat that equates FT percentage in it..and I also have a problem with rewarding more difficult shots then others.

As far as I'm concern, a point is a point

Thats exactly what you don't seem to understand

[ElGee]

Peak play there have probably been 18 players better than him.

I highly doubt there are 18 players better than peak 06 drop 80+ in your face Kobe. I'd put 06 ( or 03 or whatever) Kobe against anybody ever with complete confidence.

If you want to argue prime then fine but prime is all about luck. If a players peak is parallel to his team's success then he is considered to have a better prime than another player who has a career that doesn't line up like that.

Anyone who uses 05 against Kobe is a straight up hater. That season was in shambles to the point that the only way it could have gotten worse is if the team plane crashed.

I've never heard any player classified like that. Unless you're calling peak a single game, which is a curious and outlying definition.

I'm assuming that's how you think of peak Bryant though; He has the ability to score 80 points because he did it once. And I don't think you're alone -- that's probably a common thread in most of the Kobe Lover camps.

But what I don't get is why other players aren't classified that way too. Do you think of

Bird as "drop 60 points when he's the mood?"
King as "60 points to show off on holidays?"
Thompson as "73 points on rhythm scoring" (20-21 to start the game)
Gervin as "63 whenever he wanted?"
Robinson as "71 whenever HE wanted?"
Malone as "60+ 18 boards on 21-26 because he got mad?" (All-Star snub)
McGrady or Carter as "drop 45 points with a dribble-double?"
LeBron as "score 25 in a row to win a playoff game?"
C-Webb as a "50 and 25 player?"

or... *gasp*

Brandon Jennings as "drop 55 as a rookie?" And on and on for every other great player...

[Optimism Prime]

Peak play there have probably been 18 players better than him.

I highly doubt there are 18 players better than peak 06 drop 80+ in your face Kobe. I'd put 06 ( or 03 or whatever) Kobe against anybody ever with complete confidence.

If you want to argue prime then fine but prime is all about luck. If a players peak is parallel to his team's success then he is considered to have a better prime than another player who has a career that doesn't line up like that.

Anyone who uses 05 against Kobe is a straight up hater. That season was in shambles to the point that the only way it could have gotten worse is if the team plane crashed.

I've never heard any player classified like that. Unless you're calling peak a single game, which is a curious and outlying definition.

I'm assuming that's how you think of peak Bryant though; He has the ability to score 80 points because he did it once. And I don't think you're alone -- that's probably a common thread in most of the Kobe Lover camps.

But what I don't get is why other players aren't classified that way too. Do you think of

Bird as "drop 60 points when he's the mood?"
King as "60 points to show off on holidays?"
Thompson as "73 points on rhythm scoring" (20-21 to start the game)
Gervin as "63 whenever he wanted?"
Robinson as "71 whenever HE wanted?"
Malone as "60+ 18 boards on 21-26 because he got mad?" (All-Star snub)
McGrady or Carter as "drop 45 points with a dribble-double?"
LeBron as "score 25 in a row to win a playoff game?"
C-Webb as a "50 and 25 player?"

or... *gasp*

Brandon Jennings as "drop 55 as a rookie?" And on and on for every other great player...

I refer to Tony Delk as "Tony Delk, the Explosive Scorer", so.... yeah.

EDIT: It should be noted that I only refer to him as such to diminish the impact of Kobe's 81 in a game. Or so I've been led to believe.

[ElGee]

^^^ You're in the zone today.

I also knew you were always referring to Delk that way because you're a straight up hater.

It's the same reason I call Willie Burton a "scoring machine" and Dana Barros a "game changer."

[Optimism Prime]

^^^ You're in the zone today.

I also knew you were always referring to Delk that way because you're a straight up hater.

It's the same reason I call Willie Burton a "scoring machine" and Dana Barros a "game changer."

Guess that means we'll always refer to August 20, 2010 Optimism Prime as "Prime Prime," huh?


....


I AM KILLING IT TODAY.

[Warspite]

As a Pistons fan I recall Billups shooting so bad that we fall so far behind that theres only 1 way to get back into the game. Billups has to pump fake and jump into his defender. The Pistons then play tough defense and then rely on Billups to go 8 of 9 from the FT line. Once we have the lead He and Rip shoot FTs at 90% and we win by 15.

Ben Wallace and Sheed frustrat the opponets and start a big shoving match that leades to several techs. Billups who has done nothing walks up to the FT line and hits techs to cut the lead.

Thats not being effecient. Billups cant shoot but we are supposed to think hes some supper PG (former thread on RealGM had him as a top 4-10 PG of alltime) because the refs bail him out and he shoots a ton of FTs.

[coolnerd88]

As a Pistons fan I recall Billups shooting so bad that we fall so far behind that theres only 1 way to get back into the game. Billups has to pump fake and jump into his defender. The Pistons then play tough defense and then rely on Billups to go 8 of 9 from the FT line. Once we have the lead He and Rip shoot FTs at 90% and we win by 15.

Ben Wallace and Sheed frustrat the opponets and start a big shoving match that leades to several techs. Billups who has done nothing walks up to the FT line and hits techs to cut the lead.

Thats not being effecient. Billups cant shoot but we are supposed to think hes some supper PG (former thread on RealGM had him as a top 4-10 PG of alltime) because the refs bail him out and he shoots a ton of FTs.

And apparently thats one of the main things in TS and I have a huge problem with that.

[Volcano]

I hate people who keep bringing up the 81 points. That's actually discrediting towards Kobe. It's like you can't find any other argument..or maybe because that's his only stat (for one game) that really stands out. Even then, it's only 2nd best.

There's also no way you take Barkley over Kobe. Undersized big men with unnoticeable defense are the worst kind of superstar players you want to go with. Their value and impact are always lower than their numbers suggest.

I would say Kobe, career-wise, should definitely be top 10. If I'm drafting from an all-time list..I would have to work it out (which would take way too long to do properly). I'm generally comfortable with seeing him listed around the 8-12 range.

[loganido]

I can only name 3, and wouldn't really be very sure about it.

I think Kobe gets so much hate and Bron so much hype, but well, Miami will prove who's right this season.

[NO-KG-AI]

Amen to Warspite's rant on Billups. Most egregious bailouts of any player, I can't believe people attack Wade, Paul, LEBron, ETC, when this guy basically tries to pump until he hooks your arm and then flails every time down.

[rrravenred]

... and the worst thing? He's good at it.

[cloud king]

Kobe is right where Shaq and Duncan are at this point, which is top 10.

considering Kobe still has a good 5 years left, if he can keep it up and win more, he can definitely be top 6 just by being on average a top 3 player for a decade and a half while winning titles, mvps, breaking records and being just that good at pretty much every aspect of the game

[Wavy Q]

Kobe is right where Shaq and Duncan are at this point, which is top 10.

considering Kobe still has a good 5 years left, if he can keep it up and win more, he can definitely be top 6 just by being on average a top 3 player for a decade and a half while winning titles, mvps, breaking records and being just that good at pretty much every aspect of the game

ehhh, 5 good years is pushing it, im thinkin 2 or 3 at the most