SoTD: Bargnani's defensive numbers over 4 years

Clutch Carter · Post #181 » by **Clutch Carter** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 3:01 am

Yawn, same ol posters with the same tired hate.

Indeed · Post #182 » by **Indeed** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 3:32 am

Sifu wrote:The statistical analysis that started this thread had a flawed premise and really, when you look at a team game, with 5 players on a team on the court at the same time, you really do need to factor in correlations. Thankfully, someone a few posts back did just that and saw that the trend for not just Bargs but many players on the team had a downward trend.

However, we can all agree that Bargs as well as all the other players on this team can improve defensively.

Yes, and this is not the first thread, and I have said it last year, it is completely flawed. You can't take an average to figure out an individual number. There are too many unknown with something like (DRtg) y1 = x1 + x2 + x3 + x4 + x5, and no matter how you filter them, your xN are gonna be wrong, because all the yN gives you different result, so you cannot eliminate other xN by substitution.

Raconteur · Post #183 » by **Raconteur** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 3:51 am

Funny story... I brought my visiting nephews to a game; who aren't big basketball fans (aged 7 and 10); and after a few casual layups from the opposing team, the younger one says: "Why does our biggest guy not do anything?". The older one says "He doesn't want to get hurt." To which I just chuckled and said "don't worry he'll do something cool later."

I died a little inside.

edit: Oh it was one of those Denver games where we were ridiculously crushed. It was a very quiet drive home.

McFurious1 · Post #184 » by **McFurious1** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 4:14 am

Clutch Carter wrote:Yawn, same ol posters with the same tired hate.

+1

Tony_Montana · Post #185 » by **Tony_Montana** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 4:17 am

lstern wrote:I'm not an over-the-top Bargnani supporter, but to say that he is underutilized offensively is an understatement. Our defence last year really made Bargnani stick out, as his good man-man D was rarely seen as he was oft forced to switch and help cover opposing wings/guards as they attacked the paint, waltzing in past Jose and Turkoglu.

Man D at the C position is not really important in this NBA. How many legit postup threats are there in the NBA? Now how many of those guys can Bargnani even stop? The value of the NBA C is in guarding PnR (as most teams run it as their bread'n'butter play) and protecting the rim from wing penetration. So, if your big can't do that, you won't be a good defensive team in this league.

Tony_Montana · Post #186 » by **Tony_Montana** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 4:19 am

Clutch Carter wrote:Yawn, same ol posters with the same tired hate.

It deserves repeating.

sanity · Post #187 » by **sanity** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 4:21 am

Based on his performance on team Italy his defensive statistics will not improve by much unless his overall play drastically improves. It isn't hate, its the reality of him as a basketball player.

sanity · Post #188 » by **sanity** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 4:22 am

Tony_Montana wrote:Man D at the C position is not really important in this NBA.

One of the greatest points ever posted on realgm.

McFurious1 · Post #189 » by **McFurious1** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 4:48 am

Tony_Montana wrote:
lstern wrote:I'm not an over-the-top Bargnani supporter, but to say that he is underutilized offensively is an understatement. Our defence last year really made Bargnani stick out, as his good man-man D was rarely seen as he was oft forced to switch and help cover opposing wings/guards as they attacked the paint, waltzing in past Jose and Turkoglu.

Man D at the C position is not really important in this NBA. How many legit postup threats are there in the NBA? Now how many of those guys can Bargnani even stop? The value of the NBA C is in guarding PnR (as most teams run it as their bread'n'butter play) and protecting the rim from wing penetration. So, if your big can't do that, you won't be a good defensive team in this league.

So what if Bargnani is moved the PF position then he becomes a good defender?

Tony_Montana · Post #190 » by **Tony_Montana** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 5:24 am

McFurious1 wrote:
So what if Bargnani is moved the PF position then he becomes a good defender?

He becomes easier to mask defensively, sure. But then you have to deal with the fact that we give up on the Bargs at C project at year 5, right after we lost the best PF in the NBA. The optics of that is AWFUL.

Birth of the Cool · Post #191 » by **Birth of the Cool** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 5:32 am

Tony_Montana wrote:right after we lost the best PF in the NBA.

don't want to sidetrack the discussion too much but you have Bosh over Dirk?
Duncan last year..hmm...but Dirk I still think is the King of the PF's at this time.

Kayjay · Post #192 » by **Kayjay** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 5:47 am

260 pound Bargnani being our anchor the last two years was a lot worse defensively than our 7-foot SF three point specialist the first two years he was here.

strangespot · Post #193 » by **strangespot** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 7:37 am

sh00n wrote:That's a good point. There was one game where he really showed glimpses of being a great help defender - against Washington I believe. He had 4 or 5 blocks and I think all of them were switching off and helping someone else who got beat.

Bargs really is underrated in terms of man to man defense. If he could improve his help defense consistently, I'd be perfectly fine with his defense in general. Just needs to get his rebounds to around the 7-8 area.

http://www.youtube.com/user/hoiduda?blend=2&ob=1#p/u/1/70fELZPMQpg

ponder276 · Post #194 » by **ponder276** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 7:51 am

I've been preaching this for years, but many do not want to hear it - Bargs is just not a winning player. He is a horrendous defender, very slow to rotate and cut off lanes on the interior, which is by far a big man's biggest contribution on d. When Amir comes on for Bargs our defense instantly goes from unbelievably horrible and easy to penetrate to actually decent. Then add in that he's a ridiculously bad rebounder, and a total chucker on offense (good shooter, but all he does is chuck), and you have a player who is a liability, not one who contributes to wins. Simply remove Bargs from last years' team, for example, and we would have been much better IMO.

Crazy-Canuck · Post #195 » by **Crazy-Canuck** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 8:01 am

Maybe Im wrong, but Bargs has been a winner on every team he's pretty much played for except the Raps.

Post #196 » by **supersub15** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 11:20 am

Sorry, I'm late to the party. Was out all day after I opened the thread and didn't get a chance to respond.

Tried reading some of the posts, but the vitriol is just too much and had to skip most of the crap. Not interested in whining. Either respond to the numbers or don't respond at all.

From the posts that I did read, the main point that I got was that the defenders around him got worse. The answer is "absolutely". But the numbers posted in the OP take that into account. He doesn't go from 113.1 to 116.9 by himself. He got help, lol. But the point remains the same. Even with those same horrendous defenders, the team - without Bargnani - still posted a DRTG of 108.3 last year.

Basically, as an example, Calderon's weakness becomes exposed big time with Bargnani, but gets masked a bit with Johnson.

I think it was Courtside who posted individual DRTG to prove that the players around him got worse. Unfortunately, you're mixing stats here. You can't use individual DRTG to explain team DRTG. One is derived from the other, and those individual numbers include 2800 minutes of Bargnani, i.e. they're already inflated.

I'll give you here more context:
Bosh and Bargnani played together 4642 minutes over 4 years. The team DRTG with both of them on the court was a horrendous 113.2.

However, the minute Bargnani stepped off the court, and Bosh played with someone else in the frontcourt, the team DRTG (5895 minutes over 4 years) dropped to 104.9. That's with the same crappy defenders that everybody keeps talking about.

Here's the year-over-year breakdown:

Code: Select all

Year       Team DRTG with Bosh/No Bargnani
2006-2007   104.31   
2007-2008   103.07
2008-2009   105.55
2009-2010   106.42

Those same crappy defenders all of a sudden don't look half as bad with Bosh and another big (Johnson, Rasho, O'Neil, Humphries, etc., even Hedo at PF), and Bargnani sitting on the bench.

andreafan · Post #197 » by **andreafan** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 11:28 am

The op only reads posts that seem to cater to his ego it would appear. I guess andrea should just opt out of his 5 year contractual commitment to the raptors and like rudy play euroleague, because he's not nba caliber unfortunately.

Miss ya andrea.

fabste · Post #198 » by **fabste** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 11:34 am

Duncan and DH12 destroyed by bargs this year were dreams?

don't replay with numbers...see the games.

Tony_Montana · Post #199 » by **Tony_Montana** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 11:39 am

Birth of the Cool wrote:
Tony_Montana wrote:right after we lost the best PF in the NBA.

don't want to sidetrack the discussion too much but you have Bosh over Dirk?
Duncan last year..hmm...but Dirk I still think is the King of the PF's at this time.

Yeah, you're probably right.

Tony_Montana · Post #200 » by **Tony_Montana** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 11:46 am

I mean, the numbers tell such a lucid story here. Bosh has shown the ability to be a part of a good team defense so long as he has a competent big next to him. Bargnani has proven over his time here (two different coaches and different starting wings) that he's simply not capable of being a defensive anchor in this league. Point blank.

Posters like SuperSub are fighting the good fight here.