Can you name 15 players in NBA history better than Kobe?

[Vinsanity420]

Thats not being effecient. Billups cant shoot but we are supposed to think hes some supper PG (former thread on RealGM had him as a top 4-10 PG of alltime) because the refs bail him out and he shoots a ton of FTs.

They only count FT's as .44 of a point in the TS formula. But forget freethrows... and look at his eFG% - all it does is adjust for 3 pointers being worth more than the 2 pointer, and it's still pretty damn high. Raw FG% doesn't mean much, at all.

[LascelleL]

Alright I'ma give this a shot...In no definitive order so nobody get their panties in a bunch

1.Jordan
2.Chamberlain
3.KJ
4.Magic
5.Larry
6.Dr.J
7.Shaq
8.Duncan
9.Russell
10.Hakeem
11. Jerry West
12.Oscar
13.Moses
14.Karl Malone
15.Charles Barkley

The one's in bold Kobe is better than...How are you gonna put Malone and Barkley over Bryant? The Italics are the ones who he's at the least on par with. And normal font he's not touching...yet

[Vincent 666]

Its not just Kobes 80 point game

he also had 63 I believe in 3 quarters against the Mavs

most 50 point games in a season since Wilt

4 straight 50 poiint games not done since Wilt

9 straight games of 40 straight points

2 different months of his career averaging over 40 points

set all time Lakers point record for a single season

has 5 games of scoring 60 or more

Why are people saying its only one game? Have people forgotten Kobes scoring feats already?

[NO-KG-AI]

The thing is, Kobe has some of the highest scoring feats of all time. But he doesn't have the highest average, or best efficiency.

Why is that? BEcause tiny samples only tell half the story, his inconsistency causes a lot more "down games" than the other guys he's compared to scoring wise, that's why these single game numbers are dumb.

[Vincent 666]

The thing is, Kobe has some of the highest scoring feats of all time. But he doesn't have the highest average, or best efficiency.

.

Huih?

He averaged over 35 for a season.

Thats pretty consistent.

He set the all time Lakers season record in points.

Thats pretty consistent too.

[NO-KG-AI]

Yea, other guys have gotten to 35(and more) without having their PPG raised by a whole point with a single game.

Consistent compared to who? He's not nearly as consistent as the other guys who have hit 35 before, and he's not as consistent scoring 30 as a lot of guys are.

His 63 point and 81 point games are a lot less often than his games that are terrible shooting games.

I mean, I guess it depends on what you like. If you prefer a guy that scores 20, 20, and then 60, to get a 33.3 average, that's cool, but I'd rather the guy that gets 30, 33, and 36, or the guy that gets 27, 33, 39. That's just me though.

[Vincent 666]

Yea, other guys have gotten to 35(and more) without having their PPG raised by a whole point with a single game.

Consistent compared to who? He's not nearly as consistent as the other guys who have hit 35 before, and he's not as consistent scoring 30 as a lot of guys are.

His 63 point and 81 point games are a lot less often than his games that are terrible shooting games.

I mean, I guess it depends on what you like. If you prefer a guy that scores 20, 20, and then 60, to get a 33.3 average, that's cool, but I'd rather the guy that gets 30, 33, and 36, or the guy that gets 27, 33, 39. That's just me though.

seems like you're going out of your way to not give Bryant credit.


Hes had 5 seasons of averaging over 28 points. 9 different seasons of over 25. His scoring averages rank up there with pretty much any all time great scorer.

Still dont understand what you mean by consistent. Bryant is a player who is on pace right now to retire 3rd all time in points and I believe first in playoff points. Thats pretty consistent.

[kabstah]

As a Pistons fan I recall Billups shooting so bad that we fall so far behind that theres only 1 way to get back into the game. Billups has to pump fake and jump into his defender. The Pistons then play tough defense and then rely on Billups to go 8 of 9 from the FT line. Once we have the lead He and Rip shoot FTs at 90% and we win by 15.

Ben Wallace and Sheed frustrat the opponets and start a big shoving match that leades to several techs. Billups who has done nothing walks up to the FT line and hits techs to cut the lead.

Thats not being effecient. Billups cant shoot but we are supposed to think hes some supper PG (former thread on RealGM had him as a top 4-10 PG of alltime) because the refs bail him out and he shoots a ton of FTs.

And apparently thats one of the main things in TS and I have a huge problem with that.

Uhh...why? Did you have a huge problem with it when the Heat won a championship on the basis of Wade shooting 46 FT's in games 5 and 6? Points are points, they're worth the same no matter how you get them, and you win as long as you have more than the other team by the end of the game. If you have an 80% FT shooter who uses HypnoToad powers to have the referees send him to the line every time he touches the ball, then he'd be by far the most efficient and unstoppable offensive player in the history of the league.

[Warspite]

As a Pistons fan I recall Billups shooting so bad that we fall so far behind that theres only 1 way to get back into the game. Billups has to pump fake and jump into his defender. The Pistons then play tough defense and then rely on Billups to go 8 of 9 from the FT line. Once we have the lead He and Rip shoot FTs at 90% and we win by 15.

Ben Wallace and Sheed frustrat the opponets and start a big shoving match that leades to several techs. Billups who has done nothing walks up to the FT line and hits techs to cut the lead.

Thats not being effecient. Billups cant shoot but we are supposed to think hes some supper PG (former thread on RealGM had him as a top 4-10 PG of alltime) because the refs bail him out and he shoots a ton of FTs.

And apparently thats one of the main things in TS and I have a huge problem with that.

Uhh...why? Did you have a huge problem with it when the Heat won a championship on the basis of Wade shooting 46 FT's in games 5 and 6? Points are points, they're worth the same no matter how you get them, and you win as long as you have more than the other team by the end of the game. If you have an 80% FT shooter who uses HypnoToad powers to have the referees send him to the line every time he touches the ball, then he'd be by far the most efficient and unstoppable offensive player in the history of the league.

Thats my point excactly. They are called FREE throws for a reason and its called the Charity (in a time when taking a handout was taboo) stripe for a reason. You slip the ref a check or he bets a C note and your TS improves. A TS% might explain how a guy scores but it cant judge ability.

[stan1981]

LOL @ people putting Barkley and Robinson before Kobe

[NO-KG-AI]

Yea, other guys have gotten to 35(and more) without having their PPG raised by a whole point with a single game.

Consistent compared to who? He's not nearly as consistent as the other guys who have hit 35 before, and he's not as consistent scoring 30 as a lot of guys are.

His 63 point and 81 point games are a lot less often than his games that are terrible shooting games.

I mean, I guess it depends on what you like. If you prefer a guy that scores 20, 20, and then 60, to get a 33.3 average, that's cool, but I'd rather the guy that gets 30, 33, and 36, or the guy that gets 27, 33, 39. That's just me though.

seems like you're going out of your way to not give Bryant credit.


Hes had 5 seasons of averaging over 28 points. 9 different seasons of over 25. His scoring averages rank up there with pretty much any all time great scorer.

Still dont understand what you mean by consistent. Bryant is a player who is on pace right now to retire 3rd all time in points and I believe first in playoff points. Thats pretty consistent.

No, it just seems like, if were consistent, since he had the second highest scoring of all time, he'd have finished the year with the second highest PPG of all time.

His highs are as high as anyone, but his lows are more frequent. In the end he falls below the peak form of scorers who were high volume and high efficiency, because they were less prone to poor shooting performances.

[italianleather]

Yea, other guys have gotten to 35(and more) without having their PPG raised by a whole point with a single game.

Consistent compared to who? He's not nearly as consistent as the other guys who have hit 35 before, and he's not as consistent scoring 30 as a lot of guys are.

His 63 point and 81 point games are a lot less often than his games that are terrible shooting games.

I mean, I guess it depends on what you like. If you prefer a guy that scores 20, 20, and then 60, to get a 33.3 average, that's cool, but I'd rather the guy that gets 30, 33, and 36, or the guy that gets 27, 33, 39. That's just me though.

Ya, coz a 3 games avg = 80 games avg...

He avg 35 pts over 80 games for goodness sake.

Take away his 81 & 62 pts game, he still avg 33.5ppg, and thats inconsistent?

So who else avg 35 pts? MJ? Wilt? KAJ (if we round up the 71-72 season)? They are all better than Kobe. No debate there.

Rick Barry? Elgin Baylor? McAdoo (round up)? I don't know much about them, so cannot really comment.

So in total there are 7 players that scores around 35ppg or more, in NBA history. That is elite.

People are seriously under appreciating Kobe's 35 ppg season.

If a player scores 30 pts in one game, he needs to score 40 pts in the next to compensate. If he scores 25, he needs 2x40 to make up. He needs to be insanely consistent to keep his average up. And he does it with above league avg TS%.

Sure, you could say that Malone could shoot 5-7 more shots per game to hit 35ppg. The question is why didn't he? If he is the most potent scorer in Jazz offense, why is he not getting more shots to put his team in a better position to win?

[SoundGarden]

Yea, other guys have gotten to 35(and more) without having their PPG raised by a whole point with a single game.

Consistent compared to who? He's not nearly as consistent as the other guys who have hit 35 before, and he's not as consistent scoring 30 as a lot of guys are.

His 63 point and 81 point games are a lot less often than his games that are terrible shooting games.

I mean, I guess it depends on what you like. If you prefer a guy that scores 20, 20, and then 60, to get a 33.3 average, that's cool, but I'd rather the guy that gets 30, 33, and 36, or the guy that gets 27, 33, 39. That's just me though.

seems like you're going out of your way to not give Bryant credit.


Hes had 5 seasons of averaging over 28 points. 9 different seasons of over 25. His scoring averages rank up there with pretty much any all time great scorer.

Still dont understand what you mean by consistent. Bryant is a player who is on pace right now to retire 3rd all time in points and I believe first in playoff points. Thats pretty consistent.

No, it just seems like, if were consistent, since he had the second highest scoring of all time, he'd have finished the year with the second highest PPG of all time.

His highs are as high as anyone, but his lows are more frequent. In the end he falls below the peak form of scorers who were high volume and high efficiency, because they were less prone to poor shooting performances.

wow just wow dont know what to say

[NO-KG-AI]

I guess you just have to decide if those couple of extra high scoring games are worth all the extra poor shooting games that drag him down to 45% shooting.

I'd just much prefer a low 30's, or even 28-29 ppg scorer who is shooting a really high percentage as opposed to 35 points on 45%.

Karl Malone is a good example of that, 31 ppg on 56%. Even if he could take the extra shots to get to 35 on like 50% or so, should he?

[italianleather]

Inefficient as in 56% TS?

The question is why didnt he then, since he is the most efficient scorer on the Jazz?

Can it be that he simply couldn't?

[NO-KG-AI]

It could be that he couldn't, or it could be that it's just not that helpful to do it on middling efficiency.

[Bruh Man]

It could be that he couldn't, or it could be that it's just not that helpful to do it on middling efficiency.

or it could be because he had competent teammates.

[italianleather]

For Malone or big man in general, they are dependent on the pg or wings to get them the ball. Its not as straight forward as to increase their shot attempts, like scoring wings.

One more thing, it is not right to take away kobe's 2 best games and include all his worst games.

[eatyourchildren]

I guess you just have to decide if those couple of extra high scoring games are worth all the extra poor shooting games that drag him down to 45% shooting.

I'd just much prefer a low 30's, or even 28-29 ppg scorer who is shooting a really high percentage as opposed to 35 points on 45%.

Karl Malone is a good example of that, 31 ppg on 56%. Even if he could take the extra shots to get to 35 on like 50% or so, should he?

In an all time ranking for D Wade would you be scrutinizing his efficiency this much? I doubt it. And he and Kobe differ by 1% in their TS%

I think it's curious that you were arguing sample size earlier and turn around and use it as the crux of your argument. A few 50 point games balanced by extra poor shooting games isn't turning Kobe from a 28 ppg scorer to a 35 ppg scorer. That's actually the opposite of significant sample size. So either he has enough high scoring outbursts in an 82 game season to affect his scoring average, meaning those games really arent outliers i.e. he is consistent, or he doesn't have enough high scoring outbursts and his scoring average i.e. ppg is actually indicative of his 'normal' output i.e. he is consistent. Or somehow Kobe cooks the numbers.


You're trying to use specious stats arguments to argue something that comes down to your preference for the way a guy scores. But you've famously used the phrase "...is better at the part of basketball that puts the ball in the hole" for MJ/Kobe arguments. Well, Kobe puts the ball in the hole at a rate that is 1% TS% away from Dwyane Wade, who is widely heralded on this site as being an efficient scorer. Does the 1% turn Kobe into a 'middling efficiency' guy?

[eatyourchildren]

BTW a lot of people are arguing for other players without really having in mind the list of players that could possibly be ahead of Kobe. So here are the scoring lists

NBA+ABA PPG
1. Michael Jordan* 30.12
2. Wilt Chamberlain* 30.07
3. LeBron James 27.83
4. Elgin Baylor* 27.36
5. Jerry West* 27.03
6. Allen Iverson 26.66
7. Bob Pettit* 26.36
8. Oscar Robertson* 25.68
9. Dwyane Wade 25.41
10. Kobe Bryant 25.26
11. George Gervin* 25.09
12. Karl Malone* 25.02
13. Dominique Wilkins* 24.83
14. Rick Barry* 24.78
15. Carmelo Anthony 24.73

NBA/ABA Single Season PPG
1. Wilt Chamberlain* 50.36 1961-62 PHW
2. Wilt Chamberlain* 44.83 1962-63 SFW
3. Wilt Chamberlain* 38.39 1960-61 PHW
4. Wilt Chamberlain* 37.60 1959-60 PHW
5. Michael Jordan* 37.09 1986-87 CHI
6. Wilt Chamberlain* 36.85 1963-64 SFW
7. Rick Barry* 35.58 1966-67 SFW
8. Kobe Bryant 35.40 2005-06 LAL
9. Michael Jordan* 34.98 1987-88 CHI
10. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 34.84 1971-72 MIL
11. Elgin Baylor* 34.77 1960-61 LAL
12. Wilt Chamberlain* 34.71 1964-65 TOT
13. Bob McAdoo* 34.52 1974-75 BUF
14. Elgin Baylor* 33.99 1962-63 LAL
Tiny Archibald* 33.99 1972-73 KCO


Seems obvious from these lists there aren't 15 players who are better scorers than Kobe Bryant. I didn't even cook the numbers and take out Kobe's first 2 years in the L.