SoTD: Bargnani's defensive numbers over 4 years

[Ripp]

Sorry, I'm late to the party. Was out all day after I opened the thread and didn't get a chance to respond.

Tried reading some of the posts, but the vitriol is just too much and had to skip most of the crap. Not interested in whining. Either respond to the numbers or don't respond at all.

From the posts that I did read, the main point that I got was that the defenders around him got worse. The answer is "absolutely". But the numbers posted in the OP take that into account. He doesn't go from 113.1 to 116.9 by himself. He got help, lol. But the point remains the same. Even with those same horrendous defenders, the team - without Bargnani - still posted a DRTG of 108.3 last year.

Basically, as an example, Calderon's weakness becomes exposed big time with Bargnani, but gets masked a bit with Johnson.

I think it was Courtside who posted individual DRTG to prove that the players around him got worse. Unfortunately, you're mixing stats here. You can't use individual DRTG to explain team DRTG. One is derived from the other, and those individual numbers include 2800 minutes of Bargnani, i.e. they're already inflated.

I'll give you here more context:
Bosh and Bargnani played together 4641.57 over 4 years. The team DRTG with both of them on the court was a horrendous 113.2.

However, the minute Bargnani stepped off the court, and Bosh played with someone else in the frontcourt, the team DRTG (over 4 years) dropped to 104.9. That's with the same crappy defenders that everybody keeps talking about.

Here's the year-over-year breakdown:

Code: Select all

Year       Team DRTG with Bosh/No Bargnani
2006-2007   104.31   
2007-2008   103.07
2008-2009   105.55
2009-2010   106.42

Those same crappy defenders all of a sudden don't look half as bad with Bosh and another big (Johnson, Rasho, O'Neil, Humphries, etc., even Hedo at PF), and Bargnani sitting on the bench.

Looking at that makes me so, so sad

NBA never frikkin works out like you want it to...

[Crazy-Canuck]

Basically, as an example, Calderon's weakness becomes exposed big time with Bargnani, but gets masked a bit with Johnson.

This is just common sense.

Bargs goes out then a good defender usually comes in ie.. Amir.

We all know that Jose and Bargs is a disaster of Cack proportions. Im just curious, how does Bargs stack up when Banks gets burn?

Jack is a better defender than Jose, but stats wise he is just as bad. Banks is probably our best defender at the pg spot just as Amir is probably our best defender of the bigs.


edit nvm, too small a sample size.

[OvertimeNO]

Tried reading some of the posts, but the vitriol is just too much and had to skip most of the crap. Not interested in whining. Either respond to the numbers or don't respond at all.

OP: "Presented evidence based on the premise that 2 + 2 = eleventy. Either argue based on acceptance of my flawed premise or don't respond at all."

[McFurious1]

Bargnani is never going to be a defensive anchor what do ppl not get?

[Guy Smiley]

I love stats as much as the next guy but the OP really missed the boat when he put together the numbers. The SoTD breakdown I want to see is how good Andrea's defence appears when Courtside, dagger, and andreafan all post in a thread vs. when they don't.

Another good follow up would be the same analysis using Reignman, Scott Carefoot and dacrusha.

Those are numbers I want to see.

IL MAGO!!!

[OvertimeNO]

Okay OP, I'll play your game.

What is the team's DRTG from 2008-onwards (when Bargnani was made a starter) in the games he didn't play at all?

I know, small sample size, blah blah blah, but I'm curious to see what the numbers look like.

[DasKoo]

So... it would appear that from 2006, the DRtg of each starter at each position dropped by either -7 or -8, with the exception of PG where it dropped by -10. If you use Jose's numbers from 06-07, it still would have dropped by -8.

Seems to me the entire team dropped by a more or less equal amount, year to year, no?

OP just got owned.

[ZefSyde]

Tried reading some of the posts, but the vitriol is just too much and had to skip most of the crap. Not interested in whining. Either respond to the numbers or don't respond at all.

OP: "Presented evidence based on the premise that 2 + 2 = eleventy. Either argue based on acceptance of my flawed premise or don't respond at all."

He keeps only posting numbers that support his point of view. For example he just posted the DTR of Bosh and Bargnani together and included how many minutes they played, then posted the DTR of just Bosh lineups but didnt post how many minutes he played without Bargs.

He also fails to take into account the quality of the opposition.

But yeah, 2+2 definitely equals eleventwenty from what SS wants us to believe.

[Undefeated]

I'm not an over-the-top Bargnani supporter, but to say that he is underutilized offensively is an understatement. Our defence last year really made Bargnani stick out, as his good man-man D was rarely seen as he was oft forced to switch and help cover opposing wings/guards as they attacked the paint, waltzing in past Jose and Turkoglu.

Man D at the C position is not really important in this NBA. How many legit postup threats are there in the NBA? Now how many of those guys can Bargnani even stop? The value of the NBA C is in guarding PnR (as most teams run it as their bread'n'butter play) and protecting the rim from wing penetration. So, if your big can't do that, you won't be a good defensive team in this league.

It's not? Why is it that Kendrick Perkins is such a valuable piece to the Celtics? Is it because of his help defense? I wouldn't say so; it's most likely because Kendrick can play man defense on almost any C in the league effectively. Man defense isn't a requirement from all C, but to dismiss that it's almost being useless is wrong. Yes, there aren't many post-up threats in terms of putting the ball in the basket in the NBA, but A LOT of Cs in the league can pass very well thus they create open shots for their teammates. You don't want to double those passing big because their teammates are going to bury a trey in your hearts. This is where the value of a C being able to play man D comes in to play a vital role. It takes away the necessity to double down low.

I would Bargnani is very underrated in terms of defending the pick-n’-roll. You want your big to be able to switch and not get beaten off the dribble on pick-n'-roll from PG play, and the Raptors switched TONS of times with Bargnan being forced i out on the perimeter where he did an amazing job of containing penetration as sad it is for our wings to hear this. In addition, Bargnani did come up with some crucial blocked shots off of the switches. I remember the first meeting against the Phoenix Suns where the Raptors constantly switched with Bargnani onto Nash, and he held Nash to only shooting 16.7% from three-point land.

[Tony_Montana]

But yeah, 2+2 definitely equals eleventwenty from what SS wants us to believe.

This is what happens when you become emotionally attached to a mediocre player. It must take away from the viewing experience to try and justify Andrea's play at times.

[Tony_Montana]

It's not? Why is it that Kendrick Perkins is such a valuable piece to the Celtics? Is it because of his help defense? I wouldn't say so; it's most likely because Kendrick can play man defense on almost any C in the league effectively. Man defense isn't a requirement from all C, but to dismiss that it's almost being useless is wrong. Yes, there aren't many post-up threats in terms of putting the ball in the basket in the NBA, but A LOT of Cs in the league can pass very well thus they create open shots for their teammates. You don't want to double those passing big because their teammates are going to bury a trey in your hearts. This is where the value of a C being able to play man D comes in to play a vital role. It takes away the necessity to double down low.

Perkins is an AWESOME help defender, for one. His man D on legit post options is what helps the Celtics play the way they do but this is an extreme case of elite offensive low-post options vs. an elite defensive man defender. Bargnani doesn't provide elite anything defensively and mediocre man D is not a difference maker in this NBA.

I would Bargnani is very underrated in terms of defending the pick-n’-roll. You want your big to be able to switch and not get beaten off the dribble on pick-n'-roll from PG play, and the Raptors switched TONS of times with Bargnan being forced i out on the perimeter where he did an amazing job of containing penetration as sad it is for our wings to hear this. In addition, Bargnani did come up with some crucial blocked shots off of the switches. I remember the first meeting against the Phoenix Suns where the Raptors constantly switched with Bargnani onto Nash, and he held Nash to only shooting 16.7% from three-point land.

Stop, man. Please.

[ZefSyde]

But yeah, 2+2 definitely equals eleventwenty from what SS wants us to believe.

This is what happens when you become emotionally attached to a mediocre player. It must take away from the viewing experience to try and justify Andrea's play at times.

I'm not emotionally attached to any player, but thanks for the psychosis analysis dr.phil. If anyone was emotionally invested in a player were 90% of you bandwagon fans who jumped on Bosh' balls, the most mediocre stat stuffer in the NBA.

I'm just being realistic with my expectations. You have wild radical posters here claiming Bargs got worse every year at defence and attribute the teams woes to Bargs.

His mind works like this.

The team defencive rating got worse every year. Bargs defencive rating got worse every year. BARGS CAUSED THE TEAM DEFENCE RATING TO DROP EVERY YEAR!!

What? Every single other position got worse too? well...ya but no...but...ya...but...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLd3-cfLlvU[/youtube]

[Tony_Montana]

The team defencive rating got worse every year. Bargs defencive rating got worse every year. BARGS CAUSED THE TEAM DEFENCE RATING TO DROP EVERY YEAR!!

What? Every single other position got worse too? well...ya but no...but...ya...but...

The main point is that Bargnani has been a net negative for four years now defensively. Late into the 2008-2009 season, posters a lot smarter than you were predicting disaster in 2009-2010 if the Bargnani-Bosh combo was going to get major minutes simply by looking at the defensive ratings of different lineups. Bargnani + Bosh simply couldn't work defensively as a combo and not because of Bosh, as the stats proved.

[ZefSyde]

The team defencive rating got worse every year. Bargs defencive rating got worse every year. BARGS CAUSED THE TEAM DEFENCE RATING TO DROP EVERY YEAR!!

What? Every single other position got worse too? well...ya but no...but...ya...but...

The main point is that Bargnani has been a net negative for four years now defensively. Late into the 2008-2009 season, posters a lot smarter than you were predicting disaster in 2009-2010 if the Bargnani-Bosh combo was going to get major minutes simply by looking at the defensive ratings of different lineups. Bargnani + Bosh simply couldn't work defensively as a combo and not because of Bosh, as the stats proved.

Much smarter than me? Thats a bold statement. Did they also predict that positions 1 through 4 would also get worse? No? I didnt think so. Because with odds like 100%, you cant be wrong! Would I be a genius if I went on 4 years ago and said the exact some thing about Bosh (his #'s went down every year too) and correlated it to how the team is doing? Bosh' numbers went down just as much as Andreas but the nut huggers dont want to deal with it.

Its all andreas fault, those 4 years he just kept getting worse and worse, I know. Those geniuses from 2 years ago, I hope they are playing their lottery numbers!

Thanks!

[evenflow]

Sorry, I'm late to the party. Was out all day after I opened the thread and didn't get a chance to respond.

Tried reading some of the posts, but the vitriol is just too much and had to skip most of the crap. Not interested in whining. Either respond to the numbers or don't respond at all.

From the posts that I did read, the main point that I got was that the defenders around him got worse. The answer is "absolutely". But the numbers posted in the OP take that into account. He doesn't go from 113.1 to 116.9 by himself. He got help, lol. But the point remains the same. Even with those same horrendous defenders, the team - without Bargnani - still posted a DRTG of 108.3 last year.

Basically, as an example, Calderon's weakness becomes exposed big time with Bargnani, but gets masked a bit with Johnson.

I think it was Courtside who posted individual DRTG to prove that the players around him got worse. Unfortunately, you're mixing stats here. You can't use individual DRTG to explain team DRTG. One is derived from the other, and those individual numbers include 2800 minutes of Bargnani, i.e. they're already inflated.

I'll give you here more context:
Bosh and Bargnani played together 4641.57 over 4 years. The team DRTG with both of them on the court was a horrendous 113.2.

However, the minute Bargnani stepped off the court, and Bosh played with someone else in the frontcourt, the team DRTG (over 4 years) dropped to 104.9. That's with the same crappy defenders that everybody keeps talking about.

Here's the year-over-year breakdown:

Code: Select all

Year       Team DRTG with Bosh/No Bargnani
2006-2007   104.31   
2007-2008   103.07
2008-2009   105.55
2009-2010   106.42

Those same crappy defenders all of a sudden don't look half as bad with Bosh and another big (Johnson, Rasho, O'Neil, Humphries, etc., even Hedo at PF), and Bargnani sitting on the bench.

I believe the main point being made is the conclusion you have come to can not be determined by the data you have provided. In other words, you are comparing apples to oranges but your conclusion is based on comparing apples to apples.

Andrea played 62% and 72% of all minutes respectfully in the last 2 years against superior talent, NBA starting caliber players (apples). When Amir comes in for Andrea, your conclusions can only be correct if Amir is playing against the same level of talent which he is not, he is playing against NBA bench players (oranges).

What the stat does say is our bench played better defensively against the opposing teams bench than our starters played against the opposing teams starters, that's about it. Now if you provided a stat to see how the team played defensively when Andrea was not in the starting lineup the data would be more reliable as long as the sample size was large enough (apples to apples). Your conclusion has too many variables to be considered accurate.

I would also remind everyone that Bosh played against the opposing teams bench a lot which would explain his DRTG stat.

Also a note on PDSS DRat, if i'm not mistaken it takes into account help D and defensive rebounding therefor giving a better picture of a players whole defensive game. The author goes into his reasoning here and he makes some great points:

http://community.raptorspace.com/topic/ ... Stats.html

[Tony_Montana]

I would also remind everyone that Bosh played against the opposing teams bench a lot which would explain his DRTG stat.

LOL. Bosh has proven he can be a part of a good defensive starting unit as long as his C isn't a pylon.

[elmer_yuck]

The team defencive rating got worse every year. Bargs defencive rating got worse every year. BARGS CAUSED THE TEAM DEFENCE RATING TO DROP EVERY YEAR!!

What? Every single other position got worse too? well...ya but no...but...ya...but...

The main point is that Bargnani has been a net negative for four years now defensively. Late into the 2008-2009 season, posters a lot smarter than you were predicting disaster in 2009-2010 if the Bargnani-Bosh combo was going to get major minutes simply by looking at the defensive ratings of different lineups. Bargnani + Bosh simply couldn't work defensively as a combo and not because of Bosh, as the stats proved.

Much smarter than me? Thats a bold statement. Did they also predict that positions 1 through 4 would also get worse? No? I didnt think so. Because with odds like 100%, you cant be wrong! Would I be a genius if I went on 4 years ago and said the exact some thing about Bosh (his #'s went down every year too) and correlated it to how the team is doing? Bosh' numbers went down just as much as Andreas but the nut huggers dont want to deal with it.

Its all andreas fault, those 4 years he just kept getting worse and worse, I know. Those geniuses from 2 years ago, I hope they are playing their lottery numbers!

Thanks!

I'm not sure you are very smart if you don't understand this.
All the other 4 positions got worse, but Bargnani was always worse than the rest.
In your remedial class, everyone else gets a B, but you get a C.
The next year, everyone else gets a C, but you get a D.
Maybe the next year, everyone else gets an A, but you get a B.
So you're consistently dumber than the rest.

[cdel00]

Random points to consider:

1) From what I saw and the stats that back me up the Raps gave up one of the worst 3FG% in the league. I saw alot of zone D that encouraged us getting long bombed to death. At the start of the season last year I was really afraid of this and saw it as the biggest weakness in our D. Those 3s inflated everyone's bad D numbers but Bargs got doubly hit by this because when he was on the court the Raps utilized the zone far more often than when Bargs was on the bench. Marc I. is to blame here and BC knows that.

2) Bosh was the team's C last year not Bargs. Sure Bargs often defended the other team's bigger frontcourt player but Bosh was the C in terms of help D and in terms of low post position vs motion offenses while playing the zone. Bargs role was to cover off on the pick and roll at the top off the key and from what I saw he guarded the other team's guard comfortably. The rotations that occured after the switch well those were sometimes good and sometimes really bad but the points that were scored were often not by the guy Bargs covered.

3) Team D in terms of points against is a stat that you can not point to an individual player. You can point to the combinations of players on the court, you can point to the style of D played and you can point to the players role in those 2 areas but in the end it's a team stat that must be shared by all 5 players on the court.

4) My opinion on all this is that Bargs was not a good rebounder on the defensive glass he allowed far too many offensive boards against by often getting out positioned and those boards really hurt the team's defensive numbers. The team further hurt their defensive numbers by giving up so many and1 FTs or open looks from 3 when a help defending guard tried to pinch in and help the bigs those extra points really hurt the team's defensive numbers. The blow bys and resulting chaos is directly attributed to lack of chemistry in those 5 man combinations the number of points given up in the chaos was detrimental to the team's defensive numbers. Overall I agree the D sucked balls when Bargnani was on the court BUT aside from weak sauce rebounding I have a hard time attributing the major ON/OFF court difference to just him.

[TMMC]

I would also remind everyone that Bosh played against the opposing teams bench a lot which would explain his DRTG stat.

LOL. Bosh has proven he can be a part of a good defensive starting unit as long as his C isn't a pylon.

That would of been funny if not for the fact Bosh himself played the majority of his minutes at the center position...

Bosh has proven nothing defensively in his career, he has always been a pylon himself....

[Tony_Montana]

I would also remind everyone that Bosh played against the opposing teams bench a lot which would explain his DRTG stat.

LOL. Bosh has proven he can be a part of a good defensive starting unit as long as his C isn't a pylon.

That would of been funny if not for the fact Bosh himself played the majority of his minutes at the center position...

Bosh has proven nothing defensively in his career, he has always been a pylon himself....

lol. How did Bosh play the majority of his minutes at C?