Can you name 15 players in NBA history better than Kobe?

[See5]

I don't see how Kobe isn't consistent in a macro view of things. For the past 10 years or so, he's consistently put up around 27/5/5 on 46% shooting. It's almost automatic.

[ReaLiez]

Jordan
Kareem
Wilt
Magic
Bird
Russel

Shaq
Olajuwon
Duncan
Oscar Robertson
Dr. J

Kobe
Moses Malone
Karl Malone

AT worst kobe is 12 right now and at best hes 9. With another championship he becomes 7 at best and 10 at worst

[ElGee]

Yea, other guys have gotten to 35(and more) without having their PPG raised by a whole point with a single game.

Consistent compared to who? He's not nearly as consistent as the other guys who have hit 35 before, and he's not as consistent scoring 30 as a lot of guys are.

His 63 point and 81 point games are a lot less often than his games that are terrible shooting games.

I mean, I guess it depends on what you like. If you prefer a guy that scores 20, 20, and then 60, to get a 33.3 average, that's cool, but I'd rather the guy that gets 30, 33, and 36, or the guy that gets 27, 33, 39. That's just me though.

seems like you're going out of your way to not give Bryant credit.


Hes had 5 seasons of averaging over 28 points. 9 different seasons of over 25. His scoring averages rank up there with pretty much any all time great scorer.

Still dont understand what you mean by consistent. Bryant is a player who is on pace right now to retire 3rd all time in points and I believe first in playoff points. Thats pretty consistent.

Neil over at B-R had a post a while ago about consistent vs. inconsistent individual performances and his findings were consistency gives the team a greater chance to win. In other words, it is better to have a guy with game scores of 30, 30, 30, 30, 30 in a series than 15, 45, 15, 45, 30.

I think that's NO-KG's point. When we call Bryant “inconsistent,” it's not a description of his season to season numbers, but instead a description of his game performances – really his shooting – from game to game as a high volume scorer. Consider the 3 best wings of the generation, Jordan, LeBron and Wade in their primes:

Frequency of “good” shooting games vs. “bad” – Regular Season FG%

Code: Select all

                  >50%  <40%     PPS
============================================
Jordan (91-98)    52%   14%      1.30
James (06-10      49%   17%      1.39
Wade (05-10)      47%   17%      1.39
Kobe (00-10)      39%   29%      1.26

*Kobe (00-10) shoots over 50% 39% of the time and under 40% 29% of the time. He's averaged 1.26 points per shot.

*Wade (06-10) shoots over 50% 47% of the time and under 40% 17% of the time. He's averaged 1.39 points per shot.

*James (06-10) shoots over 50% 49% of the time and under 40% 17% of the time. He's averaged 1.39 points per shot.

Jordan (91-98) shoots over 50% 52% of the time and under 40% 14% of the time. He averaged 1.30 points per shot. His numbers would obviously be better if we inlcude 87-91.

*As of this year's All-Star break.

So, relative to the players he's being compared to, Bryant is a streaky shooter.

--

As far as his raw scoring numbers go -- which seems to be a huge sticking point for a lot of his fans --he also just happens to shoot the ball a lot more than anyone else. We shouldn't minimize an outburst like 2006 -- which does statistically hold up to some of the better recent scoring seasons -- but for some people extra shots at a low percentage in favor of passing for a better percentage shot isn't good. This was NO-KG's point vis-a-vis Malone shooting more. Or any player, really.

If Bryant can "only" get 22 good looks a game, and those shots yield 30 points (1.36 points/shot), should he take 6 more forced shots at a low percentage or pass to a teammate for a better shot? That's the thinking, and it's fairly obvious what the better answer is. In this hypothetical, some people are in awe by the raw scoring numbers despite the 6 forced shots producing 5 extra points (0.83 points/shot, which would be horrendous). Assuming that were true, it's not that Bryant's overall performance isn't good, it's just that he actually "undoes" some of his goodness with those kinds of decisions.

So how much more does he shoot it..well...more?

Post-Shaq (since 2005), Kobe has a whopping 64 games with 30+ FGA's. LeBron has 25. Wade 13. In those games, Kobe and LeBron average 41.6 ppg, Wade 41.3 ppg. But most NBA stars don't hoist 30 a night unless they have it going fairly well, which doesn't seem to hold true for Bryant, who's FG% in such games is significantly lower than his overall average during that span (45.5%)

Wade shoots 48.8% in such situations. LeBron 47.7. Kobe, 43.8%. Only 13 of those 64 games were over 50% shooting for Kobe. Wade and James have fairly normal distributions of scoring and percentage, Bryant is all over the place.

Games with 30+ FGA's since 2005

Code: Select all

        #    % of Games     PPG     FG%     *Difference from Overall FG%
========================================================================
Kobe    64   13.9%          41.6    43.8%    -1.7%
Wade    13   3.2%           41.3    48.8%    +0.4%
James   25   5.3%           41.6    47.7%    -0.7%


All this is to illustrate what the eye is seeing: Bryant's shot selection leaves something to be desired and (as a result?) he's streakier, as a scorer, than other elite wing players. And that's probably not a good thing.

–

See5 noted his macroscopic consistency. Certainly, Bryant's sustained excellence from 01-present is a major bright spot on his resume. But there's been little discussion in this thread of the changes in his game over that time period. In 01 and 02 he was an elite 2-way wing player. In 2003 he basically turned the 3-point shot into a jump shot. That was part of the transformation into a more explosive, higher variance scorer. In 2006-2007 lots of shooting (from what I can gather, the most polarizing period in people's assessments of him). From 2008-2010 a little more balance -- better decision making, shot selection. If there were a version with optimal shot-selection/playmaking, defense and rebounding, then yes, that peak would certainly be top 10 peak of all-time. Maybe top 5. But there isn't...

His advanced stats from that time:

Code: Select all

     WS/48  On/Off      Roland
====================================
03   .210   10.3      
04   .210   5.8      
05   .145   2.7
06   .224   12.4        14.8
07   .199   5.9         12.4
08   .208   7.1         12.0
09   .206   11.9        12.6
10   .160   12.3        11.7

For me, those versions of Kobe have all had comparable impact on the game. The earlier versions more complete but not as good offensively. The middle versions more one-dimensional and shot-happy (excluding 05, where he just flat out struggled). The later versions probably exerting the smallest defensive impact with the largest offensive one (I'd take healthy 2010 Bryant over, perhaps, all of them).

Hope that shed some light on the issue and the semantics involved. It is the subtle differences that separate elite players, after all.

[LALegend]

Yea, other guys have gotten to 35(and more) without having their PPG raised by a whole point with a single game.

Consistent compared to who? He's not nearly as consistent as the other guys who have hit 35 before, and he's not as consistent scoring 30 as a lot of guys are.

His 63 point and 81 point games are a lot less often than his games that are terrible shooting games.

I mean, I guess it depends on what you like. If you prefer a guy that scores 20, 20, and then 60, to get a 33.3 average, that's cool, but I'd rather the guy that gets 30, 33, and 36, or the guy that gets 27, 33, 39. That's just me though.

I'm sorry, but your argument is bordering on plain stupid and illogical. You can't call someone inconsistent because they scored 81 points in ONE game, and then never did it again. I guess Wilt is inconsistent too. Fact of the matter is, Kobe wasn't scoring 20, 20, 60. He WAS going 30, 30, 81, 35. Of course he will have more poor shooting nights then 81 or 63 point games. I'm not exactly sure how you could consider that inconsistent.

P.S. Kobe scored 30 or more points in 56 of the 80 games he played during his 81 point season.

[Warspite]

Awsome post. Thankyou for breaking it down and explaining things for everyone. A truely impressive and informitive contribution to RealGm.


2 pages back a Kobe fanboy claimed that Kobe>Wilt I will forward to that post for many yrs to come and hope it is as incitefull and the one above. I pray that in any Kobe vs Wilt post that Kobes 81 pt game is used in Kobes defense. Nevermind that Wilt avged 81pts for a week or 70pts in a month in 1962.

IMHO Kobe will never get his due nor be ranked properly for 2 basic reasons

1. Kobe homers/fanboys for the most part cant make an argument that makes sense.

2. Kobe homers/fanboys insist on raising there Kobe up only by attempting to tear everyone else down.

Kobe is maybe the greatest NBA historian of his generation yet his fans are the most ignorant on NBA history I have ever encountered. Thats the paradox that has to change or Kobe simply will never recieve his rightful place.

[rk755]

ElGee -

[Vincent 666]

Neil over at B-R had a post a while ago about consistent vs. inconsistent individual performances and his findings were consistency gives the team a greater chance to win. In other words, it is better to have a guy with game scores of 30, 30, 30, 30, 30 in a series than 15, 45, 15, 45, 30.

I think that's NO-KG's point. When we call Bryant “inconsistent,” it's not a description of his season to season numbers, but instead a description of his game performances – really his shooting – from game to game as a high volume scorer. Consider the 3 best wings of the generation, Jordan, LeBron and Wade in their primes:

Frequency of “good” shooting games vs. “bad” – Regular Season FG%

Code: Select all

                  >50%  <40%     PPS
============================================
Jordan (91-98)    52%   14%      1.30
James (06-10      49%   17%      1.39
Wade (05-10)      47%   17%      1.39
Kobe (00-10)      39%   29%      1.26

*Kobe (00-10) shoots over 50% 39% of the time and under 40% 29% of the time. He's averaged 1.26 points per shot.

*Wade (06-10) shoots over 50% 47% of the time and under 40% 17% of the time. He's averaged 1.39 points per shot.

*James (06-10) shoots over 50% 49% of the time and under 40% 17% of the time. He's averaged 1.39 points per shot.

Jordan (91-98) shoots over 50% 52% of the time and under 40% 14% of the time. He averaged 1.30 points per shot. His numbers would obviously be better if we inlcude 87-91.

*As of this year's All-Star break.

So, relative to the players he's being compared to, Bryant is a streaky shooter.

--

As far as his raw scoring numbers go -- which seems to be a huge sticking point for a lot of his fans --he also just happens to shoot the ball a lot more than anyone else. We shouldn't minimize an outburst like 2006 -- which does statistically hold up to some of the better recent scoring seasons -- but for some people extra shots at a low percentage in favor of passing for a better percentage shot isn't good. This was NO-KG's point vis-a-vis Malone shooting more. Or any player, really.

If Bryant can "only" get 22 good looks a game, and those shots yield 30 points (1.36 points/shot), should he take 6 more forced shots at a low percentage or pass to a teammate for a better shot? That's the thinking, and it's fairly obvious what the better answer is. In this hypothetical, some people are in awe by the raw scoring numbers despite the 6 forced shots producing 5 extra points (0.83 points/shot, which would be horrendous). Assuming that were true, it's not that Bryant's overall performance isn't good, it's just that he actually "undoes" some of his goodness with those kinds of decisions.

So how much more does he shoot it..well...more?

Post-Shaq (since 2005), Kobe has a whopping 64 games with 30+ FGA's. LeBron has 25. Wade 13. In those games, Kobe and LeBron average 41.6 ppg, Wade 41.3 ppg. But most NBA stars don't hoist 30 a night unless they have it going fairly well, which doesn't seem to hold true for Bryant, who's FG% in such games is significantly lower than his overall average during that span (45.5%)

Wade shoots 48.8% in such situations. LeBron 47.7. Kobe, 43.8%. Only 13 of those 64 games were over 50% shooting for Kobe. Wade and James have fairly normal distributions of scoring and percentage, Bryant is all over the place.

Games with 30+ FGA's since 2005

Code: Select all

        #    % of Games     PPG     FG%     *Difference from Overall FG%
========================================================================
Kobe    64   13.9%          41.6    43.8%    -1.7%
Wade    13   3.2%           41.3    48.8%    +0.4%
James   25   5.3%           41.6    47.7%    -0.7%


All this is to illustrate what the eye is seeing: Bryant's shot selection leaves something to be desired and (as a result?) he's streakier, as a scorer, than other elite wing players. And that's probably not a good thing.

–

See5 noted his macroscopic consistency. Certainly, Bryant's sustained excellence from 01-present is a major bright spot on his resume. But there's been little discussion in this thread of the changes in his game over that time period. In 01 and 02 he was an elite 2-way wing player. In 2003 he basically turned the 3-point shot into a jump shot. That was part of the transformation into a more explosive, higher variance scorer. In 2006-2007 lots of shooting (from what I can gather, the most polarizing period in people's assessments of him). From 2008-2010 a little more balance -- better decision making, shot selection. If there were a version with optimal shot-selection/playmaking, defense and rebounding, then yes, that peak would certainly be top 10 peak of all-time. Maybe top 5. But there isn't...

His advanced stats from that time:

Code: Select all

     WS/48  On/Off      Roland
====================================
03   .210   10.3      
04   .210   5.8      
05   .145   2.7
06   .224   12.4        14.8
07   .199   5.9         12.4
08   .208   7.1         12.0
09   .206   11.9        12.6
10   .160   12.3        11.7

For me, those versions of Kobe have all had comparable impact on the game. The earlier versions more complete but not as good offensively. The middle versions more one-dimensional and shot-happy (excluding 05, where he just flat out struggled). The later versions probably exerting the smallest defensive impact with the largest offensive one (I'd take healthy 2010 Bryant over, perhaps, all of them).

Hope that shed some light on the issue and the semantics involved. It is the subtle differences that separate elite players, after all.

Why is a players shooting percentage when he shoots over 30 shots your measure to determine whether a player is consistent or not?

Seems very arbitrary.

Why not have it be percentage in games where he scores 40 or something else?

Anyway, Ive seen a ton of games of Bryant where he goes into chucker mode after his team is down and playing like crap.

Really thats what happened in the 81 point game.

A lot of the time it would look bad for the box score fans because they see the stat sheet as lakers losing with Kobe taking a ton of shots without really analyzing the context and flow of the game.

[Bruh Man]

Awsome post. Thankyou for breaking it down and explaining things for everyone. A truely impressive and informitive contribution to RealGm.


2 pages back a Kobe fanboy claimed that Kobe>Wilt I will forward to that post for many yrs to come and hope it is as incitefull and the one above. I pray that in any Kobe vs Wilt post that Kobes 81 pt game is used in Kobes defense. Nevermind that Wilt avged 81pts for a week or 70pts in a month in 1962.

IMHO Kobe will never get his due nor be ranked properly for 2 basic reasons

1. Kobe homers/fanboys for the most part cant make an argument that makes sense.

2. Kobe homers/fanboys insist on raising there Kobe up only by attempting to tear everyone else down.

Kobe is maybe the greatest NBA historian of his generation yet his fans are the most ignorant on NBA history I have ever encountered. Thats the paradox that has to change or Kobe simply will never recieve his rightful place.

Oh please as if the haters are any better


This is you earlier in the thread

Players I would sign/draft over Kobe

Wilt, KAJ, Russell, Shaq, Hakeem, Moses, Walton, DRob, Ewing, Duncan, Pettit, Bird, DrJ, LBJ, Hondo, Oscar, Magic, MJ, KG, Lanier, McAdoo, CP3, Isiah, Frazier, K Malone, Thurmond.

[Bruh Man]

Anyway, Ive seen a ton of games of Bryant where he goes into chucker mode after his team is down and playing like crap.

Really thats what happened in the 81 point game.

A lot of the time it would look bad for the box score fans because they see the stat sheet as lakers losing with Kobe taking a ton of shots without really analyzing the context and flow of the game.

Exactly, that's why the majority of games where he had 30+ shot attempts is when he was playing with Kwame, Cook, Walton, and Smush. He's only had 15 games in the playoffs with 30+ shot attempts

[rk755]

Why is a players shooting percentage when he shoots over 30 shots your measure to determine whether a player is consistent or not?

Seems very arbitrary.

Why not have it be percentage in games where he scores 40 or something else?

Anyway, Ive seen a ton of games of Bryant where he goes into chucker mode after his team is down and playing like crap.

Really thats what happened in the 81 point game.

A lot of the time it would look bad for the box score fans because they see the stat sheet as lakers losing with Kobe taking a ton of shots without really analyzing the context and flow of the game.

The reason Kobes field goal percentage is lower when compared to other scores is because Bryant usually averages more 3s than the player he is being compare too. Even a good overall percentage from 3 point line in the high 30s is going to bring your overrall shooting percentage down if you take to many of them which I thought Bryant did in the middle part of his career.

Itd be interesting to compare Kobes 2 point field goal percentage to others. Id guess you wouldnt see a big difference at all.

1. He used the players' FG% when shooting more than 30 FGA as another part of the argument, not the only one. He also gave you the percentage of games each of the players shot under 40% from the field, and over 50%, and that showed Bryant's not only shoots over 50% the least, but also under 40% the most. So if you say he's consistent, fine. He's consistently less efficient than Wade, LeBron and Jordan.

2. He also gave you Kobe's Points Per Shot, which takes into account the fact that the 3's more valuable than a two pointer, but there Kobe's still not as good as Wade, LeBron or Jordan. And it's not like Kobe's an "efficient, high 30s 3 point shooter". His career average is 0.340. He's had six seasons where he shot under 0.330. LeBron's career average is 0.329. Wade, who is considered the worst of the bunch at shooting 3's, and rightfully so, is averaging 0.289 for his career, and has been over 0.300 since coming back from those two injury-riddled seasons. MJ didn't have a 3-point shot to start his career, and shot 0.202 from deep to start his career, improved to a point where in his last 10 seasons, including his Wizarding days where he again got quite worse at it, he shot 0.350 from 3.

3. Kobe's FG% on 2's - 0.482. Wade's - 0.503. LeBron's - 0.512. Still not as efficient. Jordan's was 0.510. Not as bad compared to Wade, even worse compared to LeBron, about the same compared to Jordan, as opposed to regular FG%.

So yeah, Kobe's an inconsistent shooter, and not as efficient as other elite wings in today's NBA.

[Vincent 666]

Why is a players shooting percentage when he shoots over 30 shots your measure to determine whether a player is consistent or not?

Seems very arbitrary.

Why not have it be percentage in games where he scores 40 or something else?

Anyway, Ive seen a ton of games of Bryant where he goes into chucker mode after his team is down and playing like crap.

Really thats what happened in the 81 point game.

A lot of the time it would look bad for the box score fans because they see the stat sheet as lakers losing with Kobe taking a ton of shots without really analyzing the context and flow of the game.

The reason Kobes field goal percentage is lower when compared to other scores is because Bryant usually averages more 3s than the player he is being compare too. Even a good overall percentage from 3 point line in the high 30s is going to bring your overrall shooting percentage down if you take to many of them which I thought Bryant did in the middle part of his career.

Itd be interesting to compare Kobes 2 point field goal percentage to others. Id guess you wouldnt see a big difference at all.

1. He used the players' FG% when shooting more than 30 FGA as another part of the argument, not the only one. He also gave you the percentage of games each of the players shot under 40% from the field, and over 50%, and that showed Bryant's not only shoots over 50% the least, but also under 40% the most. So if you say he's consistent, fine. He's consistently less efficient than Wade, LeBron and Jordan.

2. He also gave you Kobe's Points Per Shot, which takes into account the fact that the 3's more valuable than a two pointer, but there Kobe's still not as good as Wade, LeBron or Jordan. And it's not like Kobe's an "efficient, high 30s 3 point shooter". His career average is 0.340. He's had six seasons where he shot under 0.330. LeBron's career average is 0.329. Wade, who is considered the worst of the bunch at shooting 3's, and rightfully so, is averaging 0.289 for his career, and has been over 0.300 since coming back from those two injury-riddled seasons. MJ didn't have a 3-point shot to start his career, and shot 0.202 from deep to start his career, improved to a point where in his last 10 seasons, including his Wizarding days where he again got quite worse at it, he shot 0.350 from 3.

3. Kobe's FG% on 2's - 0.482. Wade's - 0.503. LeBron's - 0.512. Still not as efficient. Jordan's was 0.510. Not as bad compared to Wade, even worse compared to LeBron, about the same compared to Jordan, as opposed to regular FG%.

So yeah, Kobe's an inconsistent shooter, and not as efficient as other elite wings in today's NBA.

So whats this argument about?

That Bryant doesnt shoot as high a percentage as players like Wade and Lebron?

Everyone already knew that.

[Vincent 666]

3. Kobe's FG% on 2's - 0.482. Wade's - 0.503. LeBron's - 0.512. Still not as efficient. Jordan's was 0.510. .

See, not a big difference at all.

A 2% difference between players is not a big enough gap to justify classifying one player as consistent and the other as inconsistent.

[Jordan23Forever]

3. Kobe's FG% on 2's - 0.482. Wade's - 0.503. LeBron's - 0.512. Still not as efficient. Jordan's was 0.510. .

See, not a big difference at all.

A 2% difference between players is not a big enough gap to justify classifying one player as consistent and the other as inconsistent.

To those who assert that, when looking at 2-point FG% between Kobe and Jordan, the comparison is very close (he posted 48% 2FG% for Kobe vs 51% for MJ), this is not the case. This data took me quite a while to calculate just now, so I didn't want it to go to waste:

This is a stupid argument since Jordan was doing so on higher ppg volume (by about 5-6 ppg, which is not trivial with players at this level; data below). That means he was generating significantly more good 2-point opportunities.

Lastly, your numbers for Jordan aren't accurate, or at least not complete. Here are accurate numbers:

MJ's 2FG%, age 21-30: 53.2% (+4.2% above league average)
KB's 2FG%, age 21-30: 48.3% (+1.1% above league average)

MJ's 2FG PPG, age 21-30: 32.1 ppg (+5.2 ppg above Kobe)
KB's 2FG PPG, age 21-30: 26.9 ppg


As you can see, there's a significant difference there both in terms of ppg volume as well as raw FG% and also how well each fared as compared to their peers on 2-point FG's. And here are their respective prime numbers:

Kobe '06-'09 2FG%: 49.1% (league average: 48.3%; Kobe's 2FG% above league average: .8% ; Kobe's peak 2FG% above league average: 1.2% in 2007)

Jordan's '90-'93 2FG%: 53.7% (league average: 48.8%; Jordan's 2FG% above league average: 4.9% ; Jordan's peak 2FG% above league average: 6.3% in 1991)


As you can see, not really close.

.

[ElGee]

Why is a players shooting percentage when he shoots over 30 shots your measure to determine whether a player is consistent or not?

Seems very arbitrary.

1. He used the players' FG% when shooting more than 30 FGA as another part of the argument, not the only one. He also gave you the percentage of games each of the players shot under 40% from the field, and over 50%, and that showed Bryant's not only shoots over 50% the least, but also under 40% the most

So whats this argument about?

That Bryant doesnt shoot as high a percentage as players like Wade and Lebron?

No - it's about his propensity to simply shoot more than comparable players, which raises his raw ppg, and what happens in games when he shoots a lot. It's an extension of NO-KG's point about taking 5 extra shots to score 6 extra points, which some people seem to hold as a good thing because of the raw ppg output.

Why not have it be percentage in games where he scores 40 or something else?

That wouldn't answer the question "what happens when he shoots a lot?"

Anyway, Ive seen a ton of games of Bryant where he goes into chucker mode after his team is down and playing like crap.

Really thats what happened in the 81 point game.

A lot of the time it would look bad for the box score fans because they see the stat sheet as lakers losing with Kobe taking a ton of shots without really analyzing the context and flow of the game.

Sounds like a bit of availability bias. Even when that is the case, that's still a bad thing. Why would you want a player switching to a suboptimal style of play simply because he's behind by 12 points?

[Warspite]

Awsome post. Thankyou for breaking it down and explaining things for everyone. A truely impressive and informitive contribution to RealGm.


2 pages back a Kobe fanboy claimed that Kobe>Wilt I will forward to that post for many yrs to come and hope it is as incitefull and the one above. I pray that in any Kobe vs Wilt post that Kobes 81 pt game is used in Kobes defense. Nevermind that Wilt avged 81pts for a week or 70pts in a month in 1962.

IMHO Kobe will never get his due nor be ranked properly for 2 basic reasons

1. Kobe homers/fanboys for the most part cant make an argument that makes sense.

2. Kobe homers/fanboys insist on raising there Kobe up only by attempting to tear everyone else down.

Kobe is maybe the greatest NBA historian of his generation yet his fans are the most ignorant on NBA history I have ever encountered. Thats the paradox that has to change or Kobe simply will never recieve his rightful place.

Oh please as if the haters are any better


This is you earlier in the thread

Players I would sign/draft over Kobe

Wilt, KAJ, Russell, Shaq, Hakeem, Moses, Walton, DRob, Ewing, Duncan, Pettit, Bird, DrJ, LBJ, Hondo, Oscar, Magic, MJ, KG, Lanier, McAdoo, CP3, Isiah, Frazier, K Malone, Thurmond.

I favor bigmen its a personal choice. I said I wouldnt take MJ in the 1st 10 picks of alltime draft. I simply dont value volume scoring wing players nor would I build a team around one. I dont expect you to agree with me at all and it has no bearing on whos better. If I added any bigman on that list to todays league I would have the best C or PF in the NBA. Even a player like Parish, Bellamy, Laimbeer, Zo or Ruland would be the best bigman in the NBA if they played today.
The PG is the 2nd most important spot and in todays rules many former greats would be unstoppable. I also love a great defensive wing player that also happens to avg a near triple double and won 8 rings.
Does that make me a hater or maybe a guy who knows that w/o Phill Jackson or paying off the refs a SG hasnt been able to lead his team to a title while the 5 best bigs have 25 rings.

[Vincent 666]

Does that make me a hater or maybe a guy who knows that w/o Phill Jackson or paying off the refs a SG hasnt been able to lead his team to a title while the 5 best bigs have 25 rings.

Your true colors are showing.

[Tim_Hardawayy]

This is what sucks about the internet. ElGee just made an awesome post that probably will not get truly refuted in this thread. It was full of great statistical data, extremely relevant, and fair to both sides of the argument.

But all another poster has to do is change the subject, and make 10 more posts til its bumped far back enough, and it becomes all but forgotten. And we start arguing in circles again.

[Bruh Man]

Awsome post. Thankyou for breaking it down and explaining things for everyone. A truely impressive and informitive contribution to RealGm.


2 pages back a Kobe fanboy claimed that Kobe>Wilt I will forward to that post for many yrs to come and hope it is as incitefull and the one above. I pray that in any Kobe vs Wilt post that Kobes 81 pt game is used in Kobes defense. Nevermind that Wilt avged 81pts for a week or 70pts in a month in 1962.

IMHO Kobe will never get his due nor be ranked properly for 2 basic reasons

1. Kobe homers/fanboys for the most part cant make an argument that makes sense.

2. Kobe homers/fanboys insist on raising there Kobe up only by attempting to tear everyone else down.

Kobe is maybe the greatest NBA historian of his generation yet his fans are the most ignorant on NBA history I have ever encountered. Thats the paradox that has to change or Kobe simply will never recieve his rightful place.

Oh please as if the haters are any better


This is you earlier in the thread

Players I would sign/draft over Kobe

Wilt, KAJ, Russell, Shaq, Hakeem, Moses, Walton, DRob, Ewing, Duncan, Pettit, Bird, DrJ, LBJ, Hondo, Oscar, Magic, MJ, KG, Lanier, McAdoo, CP3, Isiah, Frazier, K Malone, Thurmond.

I favor bigmen its a personal choice. I said I wouldnt take MJ in the 1st 10 picks of alltime draft. I simply dont value volume scoring wing players nor would I build a team around one. I dont expect you to agree with me at all and it has no bearing on whos better. If I added any bigman on that list to todays league I would have the best C or PF in the NBA. Even a player like Parish, Bellamy, Laimbeer, Zo or Ruland would be the best bigman in the NBA if they played today.
The PG is the 2nd most important spot and in todays rules many former greats would be unstoppable. I also love a great defensive wing player that also happens to avg a near triple double and won 8 rings.
Does that make me a hater or maybe a guy who knows that w/o Phill Jackson or paying off the refs a SG hasnt been able to lead his team to a title while the 5 best bigs have 25 rings.

Well then me and you see the game differently,I rank players based on talent not position, I don't see how you can take 5 players over MJ let alone 10. Does that mean you would take bigs like Drob, Ewing, Malone, and KG over MJ? I also don't agree that PG is 2nd most important spot, last PG to lead his team to a title was Magic. Your last comment is funny, when a SG leads his team to a title it's either because the refs or Phil Jackson
I would guess you mean
Kobe/MJ - Phil
Wade - Refs
SMH if you actually believe that.

[Vincent 666]

3. Kobe's FG% on 2's - 0.482. Wade's - 0.503. LeBron's - 0.512. Still not as efficient. Jordan's was 0.510. .

See, not a big difference at all.

A 2% difference between players is not a big enough gap to justify classifying one player as consistent and the other as inconsistent.

To those who assert that, when looking at 2-point FG% between Kobe and Jordan, the comparison is very close (he posted 48% 2FG% for Kobe vs 51% for MJ), this is not the case. This data took me quite a while to calculate just now, so I didn't want it to go to waste:

This is a stupid argument since Jordan was doing so on higher ppg volume (by about 5-6 ppg, which is not trivial with players at this level; data below). That means he was generating significantly more good 2-point opportunities.

Lastly, your numbers for Jordan aren't accurate, or at least not complete. Here are accurate numbers:

MJ's 2FG%, age 21-30: 53.2% (+4.2% above league average)
KB's 2FG%, age 21-30: 48.3% (+1.1% above league average)

MJ's 2FG PPG, age 21-30: 32.1 ppg (+5.2 ppg above Kobe)
KB's 2FG PPG, age 21-30: 26.9 ppg


As you can see, there's a significant difference there both in terms of ppg volume as well as raw FG% and also how well each fared as compared to their peers on 2-point FG's. And here are their respective prime numbers:

Kobe '06-'09 2FG%: 49.1% (league average: 48.3%; Kobe's 2FG% above league average: .8% ; Kobe's peak 2FG% above league average: 1.2% in 2007)

Jordan's '90-'93 2FG%: 53.7% (league average: 48.8%; Jordan's 2FG% above league average: 4.9% ; Jordan's peak 2FG% above league average: 6.3% in 1991)


As you can see, not really close.

.

I was speaking more about the 2 point difference between Kobe and Wade not Jordan.

MJ's 2FG PPG, age 21-30: 32.1 ppg (+5.2 ppg above Kobe)
KB's 2FG PPG, age 21-30: [b]26.9 ppg[/b ]

whats was their average shots per game for 2fg%?

[rrravenred]

Nice post, ElGee!

Could you do the same for TS% variation? Be interested to see if it (essentially the quality of his 3 point shooting) varies with volume. The last season was unusually poor for Kobe (injury is certainly one explanation for this) from range, but he's generally MOR or slightly better from there.