Retro POY '70-71 (Voting Complete)

ElGee · Post #21 » by **ElGee** » Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:38 pm

JordansBulls wrote:
Sedale Threatt wrote:He didn't deserve Finals MVP.

Irrelevant. Magic didn't in 1980 but still got it.

Anyway, how can you argue against a guy who won league mvp and the title the same year?

To me those are the easy years to determine the #1 guy. League MVP and the Title.

Because the person selected MVP isn't automatically the best player in the league? Furthmore, even if he were, it would be possible for him to play *horrendously* and his team still win. (We almost just saw that with Jerry West, 1972). Do you not see this?

JordansBulls · Post #22 » by **JordansBulls** » Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:43 pm

Jerry West didn't win MVP in 1972.

Sedale Threatt · Post #23 » by **Sedale Threatt** » Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:23 pm

JordansBulls wrote:
Sedale Threatt wrote:He didn't deserve Finals MVP.

Irrelevant. Magic didn't in 1980 but still got it.

Anyway, how can you argue against a guy who won league mvp and the title the same year?

To me those are the easy years to determine the #1 guy. League MVP and the Title.

I've seen you do the hypothetical thing plenty of times.

ThaRegul8r · Post #24 » by **ThaRegul8r** » Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:36 pm

ElGee wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:
Sedale Threatt wrote:He didn't deserve Finals MVP.

Irrelevant. Magic didn't in 1980 but still got it.

Anyway, how can you argue against a guy who won league mvp and the title the same year?

To me those are the easy years to determine the #1 guy. League MVP and the Title.

Because the person selected MVP isn't automatically the best player in the league?

Or also because the person selected MVP isn't always the correct choice. Speaking for myself, for me, this project is about taking a deeper look at what happened in the years we're looking at. Hence why I—and others have—post articles for support to try to get a clearer picture of what was actually going on at the time. Speaking again, for myself, I don't take the brute fact that someone won an award at face value. If I look at the season and agree with the choice, then all is good. However, there have been choices I don't agree with. For instance, I didn't agree with Dave Cowens' MVP selection in 1972-73. I think Rick Barry should have been MVP in 1974-75. So I will look at the season on my own and see if it was the right choice.

Magic winning Finals MVP in 1980 doesn't mean anything to me, because he didn't actually deserve it. Kareem did. I couldn't care less that he got it, and I've said this for years. Likewise, I couldn't care less that Reed won Finals MVP in 1970, because he didn't deserve it. He literally did nothing the last three games: his total output was 11 points, three rebounds. That did nothing toward helping New York win. I don't want to hear about "inspiration" in Game 7, because he didn't do anything on the court, and that's where titles are won. Four points, three rebounds. MVP? GTFO.

Re: Reed being 1969-70 MVP, I said this in the "Retro Player of the Year Project" thread. If you're going by advanced metrics, Frazier beats Reed in virtually every one you choose to look at:

ThaRegul8r wrote:looking at advanced stats, Frazier was second in the league in win shares with 15.0, to league-leader West's 15.2, while Reed was third at 14.6.

Frazier led the league in win shares per 48 minutes at .236, while Reed was third at .227.

Frazier was fifth in offensive win shares at 8.6, while Reed's was 7.2.

Frazier was fifth in the league in PER at 21.1, while Reed's was 20.3.

Frazier was fifth in the league in true shooting percentage at 57.5%, while Reed's was 55.2%.

Reed did lead the league in defensive win shares at 7.5, but Frazier was second at 6.4, and he also received the most votes of anyone on the All-Defensive Team with 27 of 28, while Reed received 15 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=j5 ... 03,5338422), which was actually the fewest votes of anyone on the '69-70 First Team All-D—Dave DeBusschere finished second to Frazier with 24 votes, Jerry West received 23, and Gus Johnson received 17.

In the playoffs, Frazier led the team in win shares (2.8), offensive win shares (1.3), and led everyone in defensive win shares (1.5). Then of course, stepping up in the Finals when Reed went down and have a legendary Game 7 which is one of the greatest postseason performances in NBA history.

So no, in the next year we're about to cover, a player being league MVP and Finals MVP and winning a title in the same season doesn't make him a slam dunk because upon taking a deeper look, it doesn't hold up. In the year we're currently covering, a player being league MVP, Finals MVP and winning a title IS a slam dunk, because a closer look shows that he deserves it. I evaluate everything on a case-by-case basis.

Re: Mean_Streets wanting to see the boxscores between Reed and Kareem in the next season because he doesn't yet know who he's gonna put at #1, Wes Unseld won Rookie of the Year and MVP in 1968-69 averaging 13.8 points, 18.2 rebounds and 2.6 assists in 36.2 minutes per game in turning the Bullets around from a 36-26 record—fourth worst in the league—to an NBA-best 57-25, an NBA-record 21-game turnaround. The very next season. Kareem takes a team with an even worse record—27-55, second-worst in the league, leads it to a bigger turnaround—29 games, and puts up better stats while doing so. Furthermore, Kareem takes them to the Eastern Conference Finals, while Baltimore becomes the first division leader in NBA history to be swept from the playoffs.

JordansBulls · Post #25 » by **JordansBulls** » Fri Aug 20, 2010 11:06 pm

I think West will need consideration as well for top 2 in 1970 as well for carrying the team without Wilt around. He led the league in WS that season as well.

Post #26 » by **Doctor MJ** » Fri Aug 20, 2010 11:21 pm

JordansBulls wrote:
Sedale Threatt wrote:He didn't deserve Finals MVP.

Irrelevant. Magic didn't in 1980 but still got it.

Anyway, how can you argue against a guy who won league mvp and the title the same year?

The way you phrased this I think should make you reflect a bit.

MVP and Finals MVP are certain people's opinions. If one disagrees with an opinion, it makes sense for one vote in accordance to what one actually believes - not what other people believe.

If you are convinced by the opinions of others on a certain point, then by all means you should vote like they would have.

However, you just indicated that it is irrelevant whether the correct person gets the award, the award winner should get the nod from us regardless. It seems like you're saying you're not confident enough to venture forth with your own opinion on this stuff - and I have to say, if you aren't willing to actually give your own opinion, why be in a project like this?

ThaRegul8r · Post #27 » by **ThaRegul8r** » Fri Aug 20, 2010 11:22 pm

JordansBulls wrote:I think West will need consideration as well for top 2 in 1970 as well for carrying the team without Wilt around.

I agree.

Post #28 » by **Doctor MJ** » Fri Aug 20, 2010 11:43 pm

ThaRegul8r wrote:Re: Mean_Streets wanting to see the boxscores between Reed and Kareem in the next season because he doesn't yet know who he's gonna put at #1, Wes Unseld won Rookie of the Year and MVP in 1968-69 averaging 13.8 points, 18.2 rebounds and 2.6 assists in 36.2 minutes per game in turning the Bullets around from a 36-26 record—fourth worst in the league—to an NBA-best 57-25, an NBA-record 21-game turnaround. The very next season. Kareem takes a team with an even worse record—27-55, second-worst in the league, leads it to a bigger turnaround—29 games, and puts up better stats while doing so. Furthermore, Kareem takes them to the Eastern Conference Finals, while Baltimore becomes the first division leader in NBA history to be swept from the playoffs.

Eh, Unseld isn't going to #1 on any one's list here in '69. I expect he won't be on a lot of people's Top 5 ballots - so Kareem being a stronger candidate than Unseld isn't really saying much.

JordansBulls · Post #29 » by **JordansBulls** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 12:04 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:
Sedale Threatt wrote:He didn't deserve Finals MVP.

Irrelevant. Magic didn't in 1980 but still got it.

Anyway, how can you argue against a guy who won league mvp and the title the same year?

The way you phrased this I think should make you reflect a bit.

MVP and Finals MVP are certain people's opinions. If one disagrees with an opinion, it makes sense for one vote in accordance to what one actually believes - not what other people believe.

If you are convinced by the opinions of others on a certain point, then by all means you should vote like they would have.

However, you just indicated that it is irrelevant whether the correct person gets the award, the award winner should get the nod from us regardless. It seems like you're saying you're not confident enough to venture forth with your own opinion on this stuff - and I have to say, if you aren't willing to actually give your own opinion, why be in a project like this?

My whole point is that if you get MVP and win the title that same season that you have proven that you were certainly worthy of the award and that you also can be said to be the best that year.

ThaRegul8r · Post #30 » by **ThaRegul8r** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 12:50 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
ThaRegul8r wrote:Re: Mean_Streets wanting to see the boxscores between Reed and Kareem in the next season because he doesn't yet know who he's gonna put at #1, Wes Unseld won Rookie of the Year and MVP in 1968-69 averaging 13.8 points, 18.2 rebounds and 2.6 assists in 36.2 minutes per game in turning the Bullets around from a 36-26 record—fourth worst in the league—to an NBA-best 57-25, an NBA-record 21-game turnaround. The very next season. Kareem takes a team with an even worse record—27-55, second-worst in the league, leads it to a bigger turnaround—29 games, and puts up better stats while doing so. Furthermore, Kareem takes them to the Eastern Conference Finals, while Baltimore becomes the first division leader in NBA history to be swept from the playoffs.

Eh, Unseld isn't going to #1 on any one's list here in '69. I expect he won't be on a lot of people's Top 5 ballots - so Kareem being a stronger candidate than Unseld isn't really saying much.

True. I was just saying that if we were looking at what awards people actually won, Unseld won an MVP in actuality for the turnaround, when—again, in actuality—Kareem put up a greater case than Unseld for being the second ROY/MVP. (Especially since Unseld never so much as made an All-NBA team again.)

Post #31 » by **Doctor MJ** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 1:09 am

ThaRegul8r wrote:True. I was just saying that if we were looking at what awards people actually won, Unseld won an MVP in actuality for the turnaround, when—again, in actuality—Kareem put up a greater case than Unseld for being the second ROY/MVP. (Especially since Unseld never so much as made an All-NBA team again.)

Definitely a legit point.

I'll say that right now I'm leaning toward West at #1, Kareem at 2, and the Knick duo at the 3rd & 4th spots. We'll see what happens.

ThaRegul8r · Post #32 » by **ThaRegul8r** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 1:46 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
ThaRegul8r wrote:True. I was just saying that if we were looking at what awards people actually won, Unseld won an MVP in actuality for the turnaround, when—again, in actuality—Kareem put up a greater case than Unseld for being the second ROY/MVP. (Especially since Unseld never so much as made an All-NBA team again.)

Definitely a legit point.

I'll say that right now I'm leaning toward West at #1, Kareem at 2, and the Knick duo at the 3rd & 4th spots. We'll see what happens.

That's how my list looks as well, though I haven't quite decided on the order of the top two yet—between West carrying the Lakers sans Wilt, and Kareem turning around the second-worst team in the league, record-wise. Doing more research. As always, I'm open to any cogent argument that might be made.

ThaRegul8r · Post #33 » by **ThaRegul8r** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 2:00 am

Dr Mufasa wrote:West will be a bit unlucky in this project, his best years he'll likely be left with 3rd place votes behind Russell/Wilt, then in 68-73 when it looks like he could finally rack up some top 2 points, he gets a rash of injuries

Hmm. West has a case for #1 next season, as well as for '68-69, when Russell will finally arrive on the scene. It's problematic that he (West) missed 25% of the season in '68-69, but his postseason was so superlative. And in the Finals he did everything humanly possible to bring the Lakers a championship, and had 42/13/12 in the deciding Game 7. Not his fault they didn't win. There's nothing I could point to and say, "If he had done x, the Lakers would have won." So he has a chance to pick up some points in the next couple years before it turns into the Wilt/Russell show.

shawngoat23 · Post #34 » by **shawngoat23** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 8:03 am

ThaRegul8r wrote:
An NBA championship for the Bucks would embellish Alcindor’s achievement and might prevent him from suffering the fate of Wilt Chamberlain, who won the MVP award as a rookie but has been able to lead a team to only one tainted league championship and never was able to lead a team past Boston when his arch-opponent, Bill Russell, was healthy.

Why was the 1967 championship considered tainted to this writer?

Post #35 » by **tkb** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 2:29 pm

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Jerry West
3. Walt Frazier
4. Oscar Robertson
5. John Havlicek

Post #36 » by **penbeast0** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 4:21 pm

Let me start with the ABA. The best players were Mel Daniels and Zelmo Beaty, Daniels (21/18/2, best rebounder, defender) won the MVP but Beaty (23/16/2, led ABA in true shooting percentage, 3rd in rebounding, dirtiest player in the league) was close and his team won the ring.

Milwaukee was the best regular season team and dominated the playoffs, sweeping the Bullets in the finals. Kareem should be the unanimous MVP choice and Oscar (19/6/8) is a candidate for top 5.

Next best was New York, although they lost the ECF to Baltimore, Baltimore was 10 full games worse in the regular season. The two main MVP candidates are Frazier and Reed. Frazier scored more, was more efficient, played more games, plus he stepped up his game in the playoffs while Reed slipped a bit. Frazier is a clear top 5 candidate.

The next best regular season team was Chicago, although they lost to LA in the 1st round. Their candidate is Bob Love who was 2nd team All-NBa and led the team in scoring at 25ppg although he didn’t start winning All-Defense awards until 72.

LA had Jerry West and Wilt, but West didn’t play in the playoffs (Goodrich stepped up with 25 ppg). This is Wilt’s last year as a 20ppg scorer (and 18.5 reb); as usual Wilt rebounded more (20) and scored less (18 on a mediocre .455fg%). His defensive impact was huge too and he is a clear top 5 candidate too; West’s injury takes him out of the running.

Phoenix had the same regular season record as LA but neither Dick Van Arsdale nor Connie Hawkins really had an MVP candidate season.

Philly was led by Billy Cunningham whose 23/12/5 season is very competitive with that of Bob Love in Chicago.

John Havlicek (29/9/8!) in Boston and Dave Bing (27/4/5) in Detroit had big seasons as those teams developed young centers (Cowens and Lanier).

Finally, although Baltimore had a pretty mediocre regular season (42-40) but went to the Finals despite yet another injury to their second best player, Gus Johnson (18/17/3). Earl Monroe scored 20+ but despite the numbers, Wes Unseld (14/17/4) was clearly the key to the team with his rebounding, passing, and pick settting.

1. Kareem – no one else is close
2. Wilt or Frazier are the main candidates, but Havlicek should also get a look. I give the edge to Frazier for his regular postseason heroics despite his team losing to Baltimore.
3. Wilt – great defense and great numbers for an all-time great is hard to pass by
4. Havlicek – those numbers plus his defense is pretty spectacular
5. My prime NBA candidates are Oscar, Love, Cunningham, and Unseld; in the ABA Zelmo Beaty and Mel Daniels. You can make a case for any of them, but I will cast my vote for Zelmo Beaty of ABA champion Utah, the Bill Laimbeer of the junior league.

Dr Positivity · Post #37 » by **Dr Positivity** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 5:12 pm

nvm ignore this

Dr Positivity · Post #38 » by **Dr Positivity** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 5:31 pm

1. Kareem - One of the most undisputable #1s of the project

2nd best player in the league is West, but my criteria says a playoff injury almost completley diminishes the value of one's season, relegating its value to getting the player's team a good seed. So he's off. Next best players seem to be Frazier, Havlicek, Wilt, Bing, Oscar, Beaty.

Wilt is the most impressive statistically, but I struggle with his impact at this point with the Lakers winning 48 games with Wilt, the league's 2nd best player (West), + Goodrich, Hairston, etc. Because I also prefer Frazier and Havlicek mentally to him at this point... by a lot, I'll put them ahead of him. Frazier vs Hondo, like in 72... I put Frazier ahead of him there due to superior efficiency, this year it's close to even. I'll take Hondo for playing so many minutes and still producing at a similar rate.

Oscar and Wilt... eh, I'll take Oscar. I think he did a great job adapting to a lesser role to help lead a GOAT team. Clearly Oscar with Kareem led to much greater results than Wilt with West. Bucks supporting talent was probably better, but not by that much.

Still taking Wilt over Beaty, Bing. Just a better player

1. Kareem
2. Havlicek
3. Frazier
4. Oscar
5. Wilt

ElGee · Post #39 » by **ElGee** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 9:52 pm

Warspite · Post #40 » by **Warspite** » Sun Aug 22, 2010 12:50 am

shawngoat23 wrote:
ThaRegul8r wrote:
An NBA championship for the Bucks would embellish Alcindor’s achievement and might prevent him from suffering the fate of Wilt Chamberlain, who won the MVP award as a rookie but has been able to lead a team to only one tainted league championship and never was able to lead a team past Boston when his arch-opponent, Bill Russell, was healthy.

Why was the 1967 championship considered tainted to this writer?

I was struck in the same way. I never heard of it. the author also says that Russell is hurt and injured that yr. Thats the 1st I have heard of either.