SoTD: Bargnani's defensive numbers over 4 years

[Basketball_Jones]

While Bargnani is still atrocious in team defense, is one of the better man defenders in this league. You could also look @ the fact that the team in general got worse defensively every year hes been in the league.

TJ Ford to Jose Calderon
Anthony Parker to Demar DeRozan
Rasho Nesterovic to 2 mpg Rasho Nestorovic
Shawn Marion to Hedo Turkoglu

This isn't all on him.

Stuff likes this make it hard to take Bargnani supporters seriously.

[Zarko]

While Bargnani is still atrocious in team defense, is one of the better man defenders in this league. You could also look @ the fact that the team in general got worse defensively every year hes been in the league.

TJ Ford to Jose Calderon
Anthony Parker to Demar DeRozan
Rasho Nesterovic to 2 mpg Rasho Nestorovic
Shawn Marion to Hedo Turkoglu

This isn't all on him.

Stuff likes this make it hard to take Bargnani supporters seriously.

Facts?

[RapsVC15]

This thread gave me a few chuckles.

Haters can hate all they want, fact remains Bargnani is here to stay and is the face of the franchise moving forward. Get used to it.

[wolfv]

Try rooting for 7 foot "WHITE' with an exceptional skill set and you get all bully on me. Oh sure i can cheer on 7 foot black guys with skill but they are a dime a dozen. And besides most fans or paying fans are white anyhow, can't we root for our own kind, or would that be deemed racism comon.

just like I predicted, your hate for Bosh, and undying love for Bargnani the entire season was actually not their on court play, but a racial thing.......... bravo

Seems to be common among bargs fans. Why else would they be so infatuated with a role player

[roundhead0]

Or maybe you are telling me Bosh is a great capable defender but Bargs is so horrid that he brought the team down to last place. If Bargs was injured all year we would be 7th in the league in defence and win 27 games and get the 1st overall pick.

hah

Actually, Bosh does seem to be a capable defender but he expends so much of his energy on offense he sometimes dogs it a bit on the defensive end. It's not that he doesn't try, but he doesn't go out of his way to make some plays that he could have otherwise.

This is why I suspect his defensive may take a major step forward next season with james and Wade to share the offensive load.

[timdunkit]

Don't people ever got bored talking about Bargnani and defense? I mean your all just repeating the same things, the same stats all over again ... Nothing has changed in the last few months .. the stats still stay the same folk so why do we have to have this discussion every 2 weeks ...

[redred9]

Don't people ever got bored talking about Bargnani and defense? I mean your all just repeating the same things, the same stats all over again ... Nothing has changed in the last few months .. the stats still stay the same folk so why do we have to have this discussion every 2 weeks ...

+1000000000000000000000

[OvertimeNO]

Don't people ever got bored talking about Bargnani and defense? I mean your all just repeating the same things, the same stats all over again ... Nothing has changed in the last few months .. the stats still stay the same folk so why do we have to have this discussion every 2 weeks ...

For the lulz. It's a cheap form of entertainment in the boring summer months to post some pseudoscience regarding an already controversial topic, then sit back and watch as the lemmings on either side launch into hilarious tirades about how SRS theirs BSNSS is.

I bet OP does it as a drinking game with his buddies. 1 shot every time someone uses the word 'context'. 1 shot if race becomes an issue. 2 shots when one poster deflects criticism of a certain player by criticizing another player. If Harry Palmer pops in, switch to cough syrup.

But yeah, kudos to OP for a successful troll. Even I failed to recognize the trap. SS, Anonymous salutes you.

I should keep this in mind the next time I have a party. Set up a thread asking 'who was the bigger failure, VC or Bosh?' and then post census figures of the population of India from the years both players were born as evidence. And then hope my booze doesn't run out.

[mihaic]

Don't people ever got bored talking about Bargnani and defense? I mean your all just repeating the same things, the same stats all over again ... Nothing has changed in the last few months .. the stats still stay the same folk so why do we have to have this discussion every 2 weeks ...

For the lulz. It's a cheap form of entertainment in the boring summer months to post some pseudoscience regarding an already controversial topic, then sit back and watch as the lemmings on either side launch into hilarious tirades about how SRS theirs BSNSS is.

I bet OP does it as a drinking game with his buddies. 1 shot every time someone uses the word 'context'. 1 shot if race becomes an issue. 2 shots when one poster deflects criticism of a certain player by criticizing another player. If Harry Palmer pops in, switch to cough syrup.

But yeah, kudos to OP for a successful troll. Even I failed to recognize the trap. SS, Anonymous salutes you.

I should keep this in mind the next time I have a party. Set up a thread asking 'who was the bigger failure, VC or Bosh?' and then post census figures of the population of India from the years both players were born as evidence. And then hope my booze doesn't run out.

+a lot

I think that if Andrea does bad it will be excruciating for these people (imo NBA is rigged and tanking will not help us much unless it is a useless draft), and if he does good it will be even worse

Anywho it will be a fun year to watch realgm. I for one hope that (Please Use More Appropriate Word) Harry Potter guy chimes in throughout. It would be priceless to read his rants

[turnbuckle]

If Bargnani somehow manages to get most of the pieces together this season he could be a pretty impactful player. He's capable of being a 24-9-3-3 player...this year more than ever we'll get to see whether it's possible or not.

In the past decade there have been 2 players put up those numbers (or better than those numbers). BOTH won the league MVP the year they put them up. Their names are Shaq and Tim.

Do you actually believe Bargnani is capable of being the league MVP?

24 points...yes....it may take him a year, but he's capable of 24 ppg without question given the variables
9 rebounds.... that's the toughie...but with Bosh gone I can see him get 8 or 9 per game. we'll see.
3 assists.....without Bosh...definitely a possibility...he can pass. This team is going to be high tempo, and he will get his share of helpers.
3 blocks......more likely to be 2 or 2.5 if the improvement continues, but he's capable of it...

Bargnani is going to be the offensive focus for good or bad - we shall see what he's capable of this season...personally I think the majority of you have been underestimating him...I think he's going to have a "breakout" season offensively... I know BC is hoping that's the case....

23 8 2.5 2.5.....maybe that's more realistic for next season, but still attainable. Bargnani is a higher level basketball player with potential that few big men in the league possess...whether some of you want to admit it or not.

[mihaic]

If Bargnani somehow manages to get most of the pieces together this season he could be a pretty impactful player. He's capable of being a 24-9-3-3 player...this year more than ever we'll get to see whether it's possible or not.

In the past decade there have been 2 players put up those numbers (or better than those numbers). BOTH won the league MVP the year they put them up. Their names are Shaq and Tim.

Do you actually believe Bargnani is capable of being the league MVP?

24 points...yes....it may take him a year, but he's capable of 24 ppg without question given the variables
9 rebounds.... that's the toughie...but with Bosh gone I can see him get 8 or 9 per game. we'll see.
3 assists.....without Bosh...definitely a possibility...he can pass. This team is going to be high tempo, and he will get his share of helpers.
3 blocks......more likely to be 2 or 2.5 if the improvement continues, but he's capable of it...

Bargnani is going to be the offensive focus for good or bad - we shall see what he's capable of this season...personally I think the majority of you have been underestimating him...I think he's going to have a "breakout" season offensively... I know BC is hoping that's the case....

23 8 2.5 2.5.....maybe that's more realistic for next season, but still attainable. Bargnani is a higher level basketball player with potential that few big men in the league possess...whether some of you want to admit it or not.

I think I would be more than happy with 20/7/2.5A/1.3 blocks. I doubt Andrea will improve across the board (especially on blocks and rebounds

[supersub15]

Thanks for going into those - it's more of an apples to apples with supersub's original post. I wasn't posting those numbers to prove or refute anything, just trying to add some additional context to the changes over the 4 year span being discussed. I've said many times that Bargnani's game is incomplete and needs a whole lot of improvement - especially defensively - I just like to see the bigger picture than looking at things in isolation.

What we've both proven is that our team defense has been a **** for years and even our best defensive player is only average when playing alongside better defenders than himself - and when he decided he wants to play. That we're looking at our worst defenders over and over and over without trying to figure out what to change in the bigger overall picture is what I question.

People say that posters are emotionally attached to certain players and that;s why they defend them, but don't the people who attack those same players with an equal zeal also have some sort of emotional motive driving them? Is one worse than the other - and if so - which?

First off - this is a specious argument. He's proven to be average at best, but let's set that aside for a moment. Why is is that Bosh is allowed to be good only when playing alongside other good defenders, but Bargnani somehow has to be good even when playing with poor defenders? Do you not think Bargs would have looked much better defending in FIBA games where his team mates were superstars like James, Wade, Kidd, etc... ? The Olympic Bosh has no relation to the Raptors Bosh, since he changes his game entirely.

Courtside, the numbers don't lie. Really. The team played better defence with Bosh + a big other than Bargnani (104.9 points allowed per 100 possessions) than it did with Bargnani + other big, including Bosh (113.2 points allowed per 100 possessions). This spans 4 seasons, 4000+ minutes in both scenarios, and the same teammates.

We cannot justify it with words like "system", "worse teammates", "haters" (lol), etc. There are 4000+ minutes involved with the same system and teammates, and that's a huge sample size that trumps any other theory, including the "haters" theory.

Look, Bargnani is a good offensive player. He might score 20+ next year and everyone will be on his jock, but unless he figures out where to be on help defence, the lay-up line will continue and we'll be the worst defensive team again.

[A Space Cow]

Blame the system, blame the team mates, and blame Bargs.

[andreafan]

I often wonder why supersub doesn't crunch numbers analyzing jose calderons detriment to the raptor's defense. Ummmmmmmmm.......i ponder .

[KG1585]

I often wonder why supersub doesn't crunch numbers analyzing jose calderons detriment to the raptor's defense. Ummmmmmmmm.......i ponder .

Maybe becuase he is not as a big of a detriment that Bargs is.

[andreafan]

I often wonder why supersub doesn't crunch numbers analyzing jose calderons detriment to the raptor's defense. Ummmmmmmmm.......i ponder .

Maybe becuase he is not as a big of a detriment that Bargs is.

OK, then i guess plugging in a defensive big is going to have the raps smelling championship huh buddy.

[KG1585]

I often wonder why supersub doesn't crunch numbers analyzing jose calderons detriment to the raptor's defense. Ummmmmmmmm.......i ponder .

Maybe becuase he is not as a big of a detriment that Bargs is.

OK, then i guess plugging in a defensive big is going to have the raps smelling championship huh buddy.

Not a championship, but they will be a better team.

[Too Late Crew]

24 points...yes....it may take him a year, but he's capable of 24 ppg without question given the variables
9 rebounds.... that's the toughie...but with Bosh gone I can see him get 8 or 9 per game. we'll see.
3 assists.....without Bosh...definitely a possibility...he can pass. This team is going to be high tempo, and he will get his share of helpers.
3 blocks......more likely to be 2 or 2.5 if the improvement continues, but he's capable of it...

Bargnani is going to be the offensive focus for good or bad - we shall see what he's capable of this season...personally I think the majority of you have been underestimating him...I think he's going to have a "breakout" season offensively... I know BC is hoping that's the case....

23 8 2.5 2.5.....maybe that's more realistic for next season, but still attainable. Bargnani is a higher level basketball player with potential that few big men in the league possess...whether some of you want to admit it or not.

It astounds me that in a stat based thread that someone would give such predictions of Barq's (capabilities) or projections of future stats and completely ignore 4 seasons (or in some cases more) of historical stats that say something very different.

But some different rules must apply to Barges because many people do it. Always looking to the future projecting their hopes and dreams on his "capabilities" even when it flies in the face of historical evidence.

24 PPG? He currently scores 17.7 per 36. How many minutes per game is he going to get? To get to 24 ppg at his current rate would require him to play 49 mpg. Unless the raps are going to let him play every minute plus go to overtime at least 13 times its not very likely now is it.
So maybe he goes up to 38 mpg (still too high IMO due to his size and conditioning but possible) So at his current rate he'd score 18.7.
Well what about him "getting better" well even with the extra 2mpg to get to 24 ppg he'd still need to increase his scoring by 30% ..30%! Name me a player who has shown a 30% increase in scoring per minute at age 24 and beyond? (Other than some injury related thing) Durrant made a huge jump from 23.3 to 27.5 per 36 that's STILL on 17%.

OH and this was an easy one. No player in the NBA scored over 24 ppg without DOUBLE the number of FTa that Bargs got so not only do you suggest he'll increase his scoring rate by 30% but he'll either make some other trend busting imrpvment in FT rate OR he'll but the trend and score 244 ppg with far less FT than almost anyone has ever done?

Barq's getting to 24 would be a historical achievement.

9 RPG? I've covered this so many times its tiresome (to me and probably others to read) That's a 50% increase in his rebound rate. Once again it would a historical accomplishment.

3 apg -Meh its not worth arguing about. Its a bit of an arbitrary stat. Get enough possession 3 apg is not unreasonable. Melo hates to pass but he gets 3. Durrant gets a zillion possession and he gets 2.7 so yeah enough possessions I'll conceded Barq's could reach 3.

3 BPG?_ I Love this one because you try to "qualify" it based on supposed past historical evidence. You say

more likely to be 2 or 2.5 if the improvement continues, but he's capable of it...

So yeah he should go up to 2 or even 2.5 if the improvem (which can only be past improvement continues. What improvement? His block rate per 36 was IDENTICAL last year to the previous year. There was no improvement. But you couln't be bothered to check.

OH but he's improved from his rookie year right? Yeah by a whole 16%. 16% over 4 years. If the improvement continues he WILL reach 2 BPG..in 12 freakin years.

Ridiculous.

[supersub15]

24 PPG? He currently scores 17.7 per 36. How many minutes per game is he going to get? To get to 24 ppg at his current rate would require him to play 49 mpg. Unless the raps are going to let him play every minute plus go to overtime at least 13 times its not very likely now is it.
So maybe he goes up to 38 mpg (still too high IMO due to his size and conditioning but possible) So at his current rate he'd score 18.7.
Well what about him "getting better" well even with the extra 2mpg to get to 24 ppg he'd still need to increase his scoring by 30% ..30%! Name me a player who has shown a 30% increase in scoring per minute at age 24 and beyond? (Other than some injury related thing) Durrant made a huge jump from 23.3 to 27.5 per 36 that's STILL on 17%.

Mike James jumped from 11.8 ppg in 2004-05 to 20.3 ppg in 2005-06 with the Raptors. But to do that, he had free reign to shoot. He went from 10 FGA to 15.5 and almost tripled his FTA from 1.5 to 4.5.

If Bargnani has free reign to shoot, and he takes - and makes - a lot of 3s, there's a chance he gets there.

But this thread is not about offence.

[Local_NG_Idiot]

24 points...yes....it may take him a year, but he's capable of 24 ppg without question given the variables
9 rebounds.... that's the toughie...but with Bosh gone I can see him get 8 or 9 per game. we'll see.
3 assists.....without Bosh...definitely a possibility...he can pass. This team is going to be high tempo, and he will get his share of helpers.
3 blocks......more likely to be 2 or 2.5 if the improvement continues, but he's capable of it...

Bargnani is going to be the offensive focus for good or bad - we shall see what he's capable of this season...personally I think the majority of you have been underestimating him...I think he's going to have a "breakout" season offensively... I know BC is hoping that's the case....

23 8 2.5 2.5.....maybe that's more realistic for next season, but still attainable. Bargnani is a higher level basketball player with potential that few big men in the league possess...whether some of you want to admit it or not.

Again, in the past decade only 3 players have put up such numbers (or better) in a single season.

Shaq (twice 99-00 & 00-01)
Duncan (02-03)
Brand (05-06)

Garnett, Dirk, Mourning, Webber, JO, Howard, Amare, Bosh, Gasol, Ming etc.... ALL have never put up those types of numbers.

Again, are you predicting Bargs to be capable of MVP or MVP cadidate numbers next season?