SoTD: Bargnani's defensive numbers over 4 years

[andreafan]

Just to be fair i never once projected stupid stat lines for andrea this year. I understand saying things like 25 ppg or 9 boards is somewhat laughable.I like gauging a player on feel, dam that didn't sound right.

[andreafan]

Supersub can you please use the same stats in this thread to highlight how calderon fared defensively.Be much appreciated sir.

[Truthrising]

Just a hypothetical question - what if bargnani was born black and had the character of Demar Derozan, IMO i think a lot more fans would support a player that has a unique skillset. Its just unfortunate that he can't relate to the North american culture therefore fans don't really understand him which probably leads destroying his character or looks ie the wassup comments to amir (no social skills) or when he has his mouth wide open..no racism

[sanity]

I think he would be criticized just as much if he had brown skin pigmentation.

Also, his character has absolutely nothing to do with his basketball abilities (or lack thereof).

[andreafan]

Supersub can you please use the same stats in this thread to highlight how calderon fared defensively.Be much appreciated sir.

Oh, i forgot supersub has me on ignore, maybe somebody else can relay this message to him.

[Uncle Hare]

"An unsophisticated forecaster uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts - for support rather than for illumination."

[andreafan]

"An unsophisticated forecaster uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts - for support rather than for illumination."

Good one hare.

[elmer_yuck]

Supersub can you please use the same stats in this thread to highlight how calderon fared defensively.Be much appreciated sir.

Andreafan, are you capable of ending a post with just a period? : roll:

[Undefeated]

Ugh, why are people still arguing?

Look, whether you're a hater or a beloved fan of Bargnani, bottom line is that this upcoming season is boom or bust for Bargnani. It's all up to Bargnani now to succeed without Bosh in his way to hinder his development or success. No more excuses for Bargnani this season. Scoring should be the least of Bargnani's concern. I want Bargnani to improve as much as the next guy, but putting ridiculous expectations like 24-9-3-3 doesn't make the case any better.

[timdunkit]

Supersub can you please use the same stats in this thread to highlight how calderon fared defensively.Be much appreciated sir.

Oh, i forgot supersub has me on ignore, maybe somebody else can relay this message to him.

He's not ignoring much ...

[Ripp]

"An unsophisticated forecaster uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts - for support rather than for illumination."

Lol, excellent. In other words, you've no way to debate the topic intelligently, disagree with the conclusions, and think the above quote is a sufficient rebuttal?

fail.

[Tony_Montana]

"An unsophisticated forecaster uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts - for support rather than for illumination."

LOL you have nothing to input here I see.

[Ripp]

Ugh, why are people still arguing?

Look, whether you're a hater or a beloved fan of Bargnani, bottom line is that this upcoming season is boom or bust for Bargnani. It's all up to Bargnani now to succeed without Bosh in his way to hinder his development or success. No more excuses for Bargnani this season. Scoring should be the least of Bargnani's concern. I want Bargnani to improve as much as the next guy, but putting ridiculous expectations like 24-9-3-3 doesn't make the case any better.

Ah, but this is the point. I want the "beloved fan[s] of Bargnani" to make predictions (say, on rebounding), and then put their signatures on the line. Notice that none of them are doing this...they want to be able to talk cheaply now, but still be able to make up more excuses next year if/when Bargnani fails to improve.

[andreafan]

So in essence using supersub's conclusions we should banish andrea from the nba because he would be a defensive liability to every team. Am i missing anything?

[TMMC]

Supersub can you please use the same stats in this thread to highlight how calderon fared defensively.Be much appreciated sir.

You can't force someone to focus on things they don't feel the urge to focus on, while it would be nice to see the focus on the team collectively thats just never going to happen on forums like these unfortunely... Some fans dislike certain players and some absolutely love certain players and each side appears reluctant to move an inch in their set ways, call it being stubburn, an agenda, racism, personal preference in sports figures whatever... The best thing someone like you could do to change that a little is ignore the posters you feel fit that billing instead of posting fifty times in each of their threads making it appear that the OP did its job in provoking you and a valid debate... If you and that other zeb dude or whatever his name was were not posting in this thread it would probably be on page 10 already with the rest of SS's simular Bargnani sucks and here is why topics...

Stats are not definitive proof of anything, I'm sure everone understands that they just will never admit it because it would destroy the base of all their past arguements... You have to understand that SS provides nothing but stats when discussing Raptor players, he has no take on what is clearly visible to the eye during games, its all stats all the time and so he will never be able to admit that stats are anything but the holy grail in determining each players worth..

With most stats guys and I'm sure SS is no different they often hammer away at the players they dislike but also use stats to prop up the players they do like.. I'm sure at one point the stats said Jose Calderon was destined for greatness, that Kris Humphries was NBA starter material, that Roy Hibbert is the missing piece and a rising tar, that Rasho Nesterovic if given the chance to start would take the raps to another level.... One just has to look at past posts to see that SS and his stat stuffin is highly agenda driven and when it is clear that a player he likes turns out to be trash despite what his numbers said he no longer will look into that player because it would an admisssion of sorts that the stats lied......

Argue until your blue in the face, bin there done that and occasionally still get sucked in by simply being annoyed but the best thing to do moving forward is just laugh and ignore because the history shows that stat guys especially this one ends up wrong more than right....

[Ripp]

So in essence using supersub's conclusions we should banish andrea from the nba because he would be a defensive liability to every team. Am i missing anything?

If you believe that, why not just trade him to a rival team that we want sabotaged?

[andreafan]

So in essence using supersub's conclusions we should banish andrea from the nba because he would be a defensive liability to every team. Am i missing anything?

If you believe that, why not just trade him to a rival team that we want sabotaged?

I guess miami would be a good trading partner huh?

[elmer_yuck]

Supersub can you please use the same stats in this thread to highlight how calderon fared defensively.Be much appreciated sir.

You can't force someone to focus on things they don't feel the urge to focus on, while it would be nice to see the focus on the team collectively thats just never going to happen on forums like these unfortunely... Some fans dislike certain players and some absolutely love certain players and each side appears reluctant to move an inch in their set ways, call it being stubburn, an agenda, racism, personal preference in sports figures whatever... The best thing someone like you could do to change that a little is ignore the posters you feel fit that billing instead of posting fifty times in each of their threads making it appear that the OP did its job in provoking you and a valid debate... If you and that other zeb dude or whatever his name was were not posting in this thread it would probably be on page 10 already with the rest of SS's simular Bargnani sucks and here is why topics...

Stats are not definitive proof of anything, I'm sure everone understands that they just will never admit it because it would destroy the base of all their past arguements... You have to understand that SS provides nothing but stats when discussing Raptor players, he has no take on what is clearly visible to the eye during games, its all stats all the time and so he will never be able to admit that stats are anything but the holy grail in determining each players worth..

With most stats guys and I'm sure SS is no different they often hammer away at the players they dislike but also use stats to prop up the players they do like.. I'm sure at one point the stats said Jose Calderon was destined for greatness, that Kris Humphries was NBA starter material, that Roy Hibbert is the missing piece and a rising tar, that Rasho Nesterovic if given the chance to start would take the raps to another level.... One just has to look at past posts to see that SS and his stat stuffin is highly agenda driven and when it is clear that a player he likes turns out to be trash despite what his numbers said he no longer will look into that player because it would an admisssion of sorts that the stats lied......

Argue until your blue in the face, bin there done that and occasionally still get sucked in by simply being annoyed but the best thing to do moving forward is just laugh and ignore because the history shows that stat guys especially this one ends up wrong more than right....

My vote for dumbest post of the year.
"Stats are not definitive proof of anything" might one of the dumbest things I've read on this board, and I've read most of andreafan's posts.

[Prop]

Ugh, why are people still arguing?

Look, whether you're a hater or a beloved fan of Bargnani, bottom line is that this upcoming season is boom or bust for Bargnani. It's all up to Bargnani now to succeed without Bosh in his way to hinder his development or success. No more excuses for Bargnani this season. Scoring should be the least of Bargnani's concern. I want Bargnani to improve as much as the next guy, but putting ridiculous expectations like 24-9-3-3 doesn't make the case any better.

wishful thinking breh.

[andreafan]

Code: Select all

Year       DRTG ON  DRTG OFF
2006-2007   107.8    105.9
2007-2008   108.7    107.0
2008-2009   113.1    106.2
2009-2010   116.9    108.3

Over 4 years, Bargnani's presence on/off:
DRTG ON: 110.54
DRTG OFF: 104.28

We are 6 points better defensively if Bargnani sits.

On offence though:
ORTG ON: 108.56
ORTG OFF: 106.23

We are 2 points worse off offensively if Bargnani sits.

Basically, Bargnani costs the team 4 points over 100 possessions.

Over 82 games, with Bargnani, the team is a 35.8-win team. Without Bargnani, the team is a 46.3 win team.

From the posts that I did read, the main point that I got was that the defenders around him got worse. The answer is "absolutely". But the numbers posted in the OP take that into account. He doesn't go from 113.1 to 116.9 by himself. He got help, lol. But the point remains the same. Even with those same horrendous defenders, the team - without Bargnani - still posted a DRTG of 108.3 last year.

Basically, as an example, Calderon's weakness becomes exposed big time with Bargnani, but gets masked a bit with Johnson.

I think it was Courtside who posted individual DRTG to prove that the players around him got worse. Unfortunately, you're mixing stats here. You can't use individual DRTG to explain team DRTG. One is derived from the other, and those individual numbers include 2800 minutes of Bargnani, i.e. they're already inflated.

I'll give you here more context:
Bosh and Bargnani played together 4642 minutes over 4 years. The team DRTG with both of them on the court was a horrendous 113.2.

However, the minute Bargnani stepped off the court, and Bosh played with someone else in the frontcourt, the team DRTG (5895 minutes over 4 years) dropped to 104.9. That's with the same crappy defenders that everybody keeps talking about.

Here's the year-over-year breakdown:

Code: Select all

Year       Team DRTG with Bosh/No Bargnani
2006-2007   104.31   
2007-2008   103.07
2008-2009   105.55
2009-2010   106.42

Those same crappy defenders all of a sudden don't look half as bad with Bosh and another big (Johnson, Rasho, O'Neil, Humphries, etc., even Hedo at PF), and Bargnani sitting on the bench.

Discuss.

Ok, so calderon's clap happy defense is deplorable because bargnani is on the court .....HUH?