Retro POY '69-70 (Voting Complete)

[ThaRegul8r]

As legendary as the Knick team was, they played 3 series this post-season, and the only one of those 3 where they had no real worry about getting beat was Kareem's Bucks who they beat in 5 games - a more lopsided result than in their regular season match up. By contrast, the supposedly inferior Bullets took the Knicks to 7 games in the previous round.

That because Willis Reed was utterly destroyed by Wes Unseld in Game 3 of the EDF Semifinals, and outplayed in Game 4 and Game 6, all losses. Here's my research I was doing on the series:

Great stuff. Thanks for sharing Reg.

Glad to contribute.

[ThaRegul8r]

Early ballot:

1. Jerry West. 31.2 points (1st in the league) on 49.7 percent shooting and 57.2 percent true shooting (6th), 4.6 rebounds, 7.5 assists (4th). Led league in PER (24.6), win shares (15.2) and offensive win shares (11.5); finished second in win shares per 48 minutes (.234). Led Lakers to 46-36 record without Wilt Chamberlain, who played only 12 games. Finished second by 41 points in the MVP voting to Willis Reed (498-457).

In the postseason averaged 31.2 points on 46.9 percent shooting and 55.0 percent true shooting, 3.7 rebounds and 8.4 assists (led playoffs) in 46.1 minutes per game. Led playoffs in points (562), field-goals attempted (418) and made (196), free throws attempted (212) and made (170), win shares (3.2) and offensive win shares (2.6).


2. Lew Alcindor. 28.8 points (2nd in the league) on 51.8 percent shooting (7th), 14.5 rebounds (3rd), 4.1 assists in 43.1 minutes per game (2nd). NBA Rookie of the Year. The Milwaukee Bucks were 27-55 the previous season—the second-worst record in the league—with Alcindor they finished 56-26, the greatest single-season turnaround in NBA history. The previous season Wes Unseld was Rookie of the Year and MVP, averaging 13.8 points, 18.2 rebounds and 2.6 assists in 36.2 minutes per game in turning the Bullets around from a 36-26 record—fourth-worst in the league—to an NBA best 57-25, a 21-game turnaround. Alcindor posted better statistics and led the Bucks to a bigger turnaround—29 games. Furthermore, Kareem took Milwaukee to the Eastern Conference Finals, while Baltimore became the first division winner to be swept from the playoffs.

In the postseason averaged 35.2 points (led playoffs) on 56.7 percent shooting (led playoffs), 16.8 rebounds and 4.1 assists in 43.5 minutes per game. Led the playoffs in PER (29.4), effective field goal percentage (56.7), true shooting percentage (60.8), and win shares per 48 minutes (.286).


3. Walt Frazier. 20.9 points on 51.8 percent shooting (9th in the league) and 57.5 percent true shooting, 6.0 rebounds (third on team behind Willis Reed [13.8] and Dave DeBusschere [10.0]) and 8.2 assists (2nd [to Lenny Wilkens (9.1)]) in 39.5 minutes per game (8th). Led league in win shares per 48 minutes (.236); finished second in the league in win shares (15.0 to league-leader West’s 15.2), second in the league in defensive win shares (6.4)—but received the most votes of anyone on the All-Defensive Team with 27 of 28, fifth in the league in PER (21.1), fifth in offensive win shares (8.6), and fifth in true shooting percentage (57.5%). Fourth in MVP voting behind Willis Reed, Jerry West, and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

In the postseason averaged 16.0 points on 53.1 percent true shooting (1st on the team), 7.8 rebounds (third on the team behind Reed [13.8] and DeBusschere [11.6]) and 8.2 assists in 43.9 minutes per game (1st on the team). Led playoffs in defensive win shares (1.5); led Knicks in win shares (2.8) and offensive win shares (1.3). My Retro NBA Finals MVP. Averaged 17.6 points on 54.1 percent shooting and 59.7 percent true shooting, 7.7 rebounds and 10.4 assists in a team-high 43.1 minutes per game, 23.7 points on 62.8 percent shooting from the floor, 89.5 percent shooting from the line and 69.1 percent true shooting, 6.7 rebounds and 12.7 assists in 44.3 minutes per game in the three games after Reed went down, and in the deciding Game 7 had 36 points on 80.8 percent true shooting (12-17 FG, 12-12 FT), seven rebounds, 19 assists, and four steals to lead New York to a 113-99 win.


4. Willis Reed. 21.7 points on 50.7 percent shooting, 13.9 rebounds (6th in the league), 2.0 assists in 38.1 minutes per game. Led league in defensive win shares (7.5). First Team All-NBA, First Team All-Defense, NBA Most Valuable Player.

In the postseason averaged 23.7 points, 13.8 rebounds (6th) and 2.8 assists in 40.7 minutes per game. Led team in PER (20.1) during the playoffs, and was second on the team in win shares (2.6), offensive win shares (1.1), defensive win shares (1.4), win shares per 48 minutes (.168). Undeserved NBA Finals MVP, which does not factor in my ranking.


5. Billy Cunningham. 26.1 points (4th in the league), 13.6 rebounds (7th) and 4.3 assists in 39.4 minutes per game (10th). Improved numbers in second year as a starter. Fifth in MVP voting.

In the postseason averaged 29.2 points on 49.6 percent shooting, 10.4 rebounds and 4.0 assists in 41.0 minutes per game.

My #1 and #2 are still subject to change. Still thinking/research, and open to any compelling argument.

[ElGee]

Estimated Pace Adjusted Satistics 1970

ORtg

Code: Select all

1.  Atlanta       103.0
2.  Milwaukee     102.9
3.  Phoenix       102.1
4.  New York      100.9
4.  Philadelphia  100.9
6.  Detroit       100.5
7.  Seattle       100.1
LEAGUE AVG.       99.2
8.  Baltimore     98.6
9.  Cincinnati    98.0
10. Los Angeles   97.6
11. Chicago       97.3
12. Boston        96.9
13. San Diego     95.7
14. San Francisco 94.1

DRtg

Code: Select all

1.  New York      92.9
2.  Baltimore     96.9
3.  San Francisco 97.4
4.  Philadelphia  98.0
5.  Boston        98.5
6.  Chicago       98.8
6.  San Diego     98.8
8.  Milwaukee     98.9
9.  Los Angeles   99.2
LEAGUE AVG.       99.2
10. Cincinnati    100.4
11. Seattle       102.4
12. Atlanta       102.6
13. Detroit       103.5
14. Phoenix       103.6

Code: Select all

         Pts/75  Reb/75 Ast/75 Rel TS%
======================================
West      23.3   3.4    5.6    6.1%
Alcindor  20.8   10.5   3.0    4.1%
Billy C   19.7   10.3   3.3    1.3%
Hawkins   18.5   7.8    3.6    5.2%
Oscar     18.3   4.4    5.9    6.6%
Reed      18.0   11.5   1.7    4.1%       
Havlicek  17.7   5.7    5.0    2.2%
Frazier   16.7   4.8    6.6    6.4%

[TrueLAfan]

I know this is going to sound horrible, but Lew Alcindor had announced he was Muslim in late 1968, aligned himself with Elijah Muhammed in 1969...and probably didn't do as well in MVP/All-NBA voting as he should have in 1969-70. (Compare how Wes Unseld—a quiet, Christian black man—did in MVP voting in 1969 to Kareem in 1970. Hmmm.) I also think this played a part in Reed outpointing Frazier in MVP voting. I don't think there was a huge group of voters who were racist in the NBA, and it's not that Willis Reed was anything other than a terrific ballplayer. But the undercurrents were there and expressed, if subtly, and I do think there was a large enough minority to make for some bad voting from the late 60s into the early 1970s.

(You might want to have a look at the major story on Lew/Kareem that came out during the season at http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm Do you really think that the NBA was happy about a person with those attitudes leading the dynasty that took over from the Celtics?)

That being said—no, I don't have Kareem at #1 this year.

1. Jerry West. One of the best, if not the best, perimeter defenders in the league. 31 points a game on 50% shooting with terrific range. 7.5 assists a game in a league that gave fewer assists. Sacrificed his body to get the points—close to 11 FTA a game this year. Was just as good in the postseason.

A few notes about West in the Finals.

1) West was trying to help everyone out on defense and offense in this series, especially in game 7. Dean Garrett couldn't defend anyone. Elgin was shot (he went from 24 a game during the season to 19 in the playoffs leading up to the finals to 17.5 in the finals). Keith Erickson wasn't much help on D. So West was trying to cover multiple players; too much for anyone. And no one other than Jerry was hitting from the perimeter until the fourth quarter of Game 7, when it was all over 2) Prior to game 7, Frazier had been held to 14.5 ppg in the other six games, one of which West extended with his famous 55 footer. I don't know if anyone could have beaten the Knicks in Game 7—they played a perfect game—but I do think West won or extended games single handedly. 3) West was hurt too—bruised left hand in Game 3, either a badly bruised or broken right hand in Game 5. (This was why West didn't shoot in Game 5, btw.) He received painkilling shots in his each of his hands before both of the last two games. Frazier had the better game 7, but West had the better series and season. He's number one for me.

2. Lew Alcindor. The Bucks basically exchanged Len Chappell for a rookie Bob Dandirdge (close to a push), and Wayne Embry for Kareem. The other changes were minor...but, for the sake of argument, I'll say that the players other than Kareem improved the Bucks by 7-10 games between 1969 and 1970...which is a lot. The Bucks won 29 more games, which means Kareem was responsible for around 20 wins. Which figures, since he was second in the league in scoring, third in rebounding, and seventh in FG%. And he stepped it up in the postseason.

3. Walt Frazier. The difference between statistically dominant and most valuable is not always obvious. Walt Frazier was better than his numbers. Much better. The Knicks were his team, and they won a title. Did everything in whatever degrees were necessary to get his team to win...and win they did. That's my ultimate definition of value

4. Spencer Haywood. Has the eye-popping numbers...but he also had a perfect frontline (Byron Beck and Julius Keye) to support his style of play. As a matter of fact, the Nuggets had a good team that year. Still, Haywood was spectacular, and was a stud in the postseason. His game relied on speed and finesse more than strength, so I think he was probably at least as good in 1970 as he was at his peak in the NBA (and hadn't acquired quite the ego...yet). So I'll take him at #4.

5. Billy Cunningham. Was ona team with virtually no frontcourt; rebounded his a$$ off at SF, scored 26 a game, and passed the ball well. Not a great defender, but as good as Rick Barry—and a nicer guy. Smart player, adjusted his game to help his team.

HM: Reed (A very good player, but slightly overrated), Oscar (good team that didn't go anywhere with Oscar running it), Lou Hudson (a stud; think of a bigger, better Ray Allen), Mel Daniels (a lunch pail type of player; brought toughness every night, won a title)

[Mean_Streets]

OK, I'm moving West to #1 & Kareem to #2. I don't feel comfortable putting a rookie at #1 & I had no idea West played injured during the Finals.

[semi-sentient]

Yeah, lots of good arguments being made in support of West. More than likely, I'll be changing my ballot to put him at #1 and Kareem at #2 as well.

[lorak]

Damn. Wilt was a monster in the playoffs. He missed 70 games in the REG SEA though. I don't know. 70 games is a bit much, even for me. I don't think he can make a list. haha

Well, if Wilt had totally dominated everybody on the way to winning the championship, I'd consider him. However, Wilt's inability to consistently dominate the Knicks even when Reed was injured or absent, .

45 pts (20/27FG), 27 rbs... I would say it's as dominant as could be.

[Doctor MJ]

Damn. Wilt was a monster in the playoffs. He missed 70 games in the REG SEA though. I don't know. 70 games is a bit much, even for me. I don't think he can make a list. haha

Well, if Wilt had totally dominated everybody on the way to winning the championship, I'd consider him. However, Wilt's inability to consistently dominate the Knicks even when Reed was injured or absent, .

45 pts (20/27FG), 27 rbs... I would say it's as dominant as could be.

Game 5, Reed plays 8 minutes, Wilt goes for 22 points, and the Knicks sans Reed easily outscore the Lakers.

Game 7, Reed plays 27 minutes just hobbling around, contributing essentially nothing on offense or in rebounding, Wilt scores 21.

This is why I said "consistently dominate". 1 dominant game in 3 in the 3 most important games of the season against a team that does not have ANYONE at his position that could be considered average quality is nothing close to "forget about the rest of the season, he's gotta be #1!" material.

[Manuel Calavera]

Whose fault is it that Wilt didn't score more? Unless the coaching staff were making a concerted effort to make Wilt the focus of the offense and Wilt deliberately passed shots off because he felt like throwing a championship or was taking shots but at an extremely low percentage (and I don't think he did - he shot 63% for the series) then I fail to see how it's a valid point.

Also, how do you know if Wilt scored more they'd have won? What if he didn't score and they still won because certain players played slightly better (or worse on the Knicks, like say Dick Barnett misses the game winning jumper in game 3 of OT and the Lakers go up 2-1). I'd think if we redid the finals and the Lakers won, Wilt plays the exact same the people arguing against Wilt would suddenly be heralding his play in the finals and saying how amazing it was for him to completely change how he played the game even just 2 years prior.

It just seems like a rehash of the 1973 thread logic.

[drza]

Honestly, just from what I've seen in this thread, it seems to me that Alcindor was pretty solidly better than West even as a rookie. In the regular season their stats were relatively close, but when in doubt doesn't a big usually have a bigger non-statistical impact on a game than a wing? I recognize that West was a good perimeter defender, but big men defenders just have a bigger effect than wing defenders and Alcindor (even then) was recognized as an excellent defensive big that dominated the glass. Even if it we were just voting on the regular season I'd have Alcindor edging out West.

But in the postseason, it seems like Alcindor blew West out of the water. I mean, 35 points on 61% TS with 17 boards and 4 assists with a PER over 29? And he outplayed Reed, the MVP, head-to-head in their series? Even if Reed was forced to defend him 1-on-1 as opposed to receiving help as some type of "let him get his" strategy...the fact that he could explode all over the reigning MVP 1-on-1 is still a pretty big statement.

Even if West was injured for a part of the Finals, his postseason just doesn't even look comparable to Alcindor's. In fact, Alcindor's postseason was up several notches even from West's regular season.

I guess I'm just not seeing how West is winning by such a consensus in the votes so far. Am I missing something?

[JordansBulls]

Honestly, just from what I've seen in this thread, it seems to me that Alcindor was pretty solidly better than West even as a rookie. In the regular season their stats were relatively close, but when in doubt doesn't a big usually have a bigger non-statistical impact on a game than a wing? I recognize that West was a good perimeter defender, but big men defenders just have a bigger effect than wing defenders and Alcindor (even then) was recognized as an excellent defensive big that dominated the glass. Even if it we were just voting on the regular season I'd have Alcindor edging out West.

But in the postseason, it seems like Alcindor blew West out of the water. I mean, 35 points on 61% TS with 17 boards and 4 assists with a PER over 29? And he outplayed Reed, the MVP, head-to-head in their series? Even if Reed was forced to defend him 1-on-1 as opposed to receiving help as some type of "let him get his" strategy...the fact that he could explode all over the reigning MVP 1-on-1 is still a pretty big statement.

Even if West was injured for a part of the Finals, his postseason just doesn't even look comparable to Alcindor's. In fact, Alcindor's postseason was up several notches even from West's regular season.

I guess I'm just not seeing how West is winning by such a consensus in the votes so far. Am I missing something?

Well I've seen people leave off Willis Reed from the ballot. No way a guy who wins both League/Finals MVP shouldn't be considered the best that year as he didn't fail at anything.

[ronnymac2]

West is looking like a solid number one.

Jabbar wasn't Jabbar yet. Yes, he was arguably the GOAT college player, more hyped than Bron or Big Red. That doesn't mean he's totally prepared for the real NBA. I don't care what era it is. The pros are still the pros. That 22 year old is still going up against people who have ten year old children of their own.

I believe Jabbar even admitted that he improved from his first season to his second season. He gained weight and was better on the glass and defensively. Keep in mind that he was all-defense second team this year, a year when Wilt and Thurmond missed a buttload of games and couldn't really qualify. Write off the Reed selection as a result of racial prejudice. Jabbar still is not even a true top two C in the league defensively.

Jabbar also shot 65% on his free throws this year, the worst percentage of his career.

He wasn't Kareem Abdul-Jabbar yet (Cue the Alcindor/Jabbar jokes). Not the Jabbar that ripped everybody apart. I don't even think 71 and 72 were his peak. 76 and 77 were. He just put up gaudier scoring numbers in 71 and 72.

I have to say though....Jabbar tearing into Reed like that in the playoffs is mighty impressive. Also, Reed had some major injury issues it seems.

I've watched that game 7 vs. LA, and Reed wasn't just an emotional lift and two jumpers for his team. He contributed on the glass, took Wilt away from the hoop for about 20 minutes (Seriously....I believe Wilt only blocked one shot the whole game and wasn't a factor defensively, as the Knicks did whatever they wanted), and played physical, though mostly stationary defense.

Frazier vs. Reed is still going to be tough for me. I think this will turn into Jabbar vs. Reed vs. Frazier.


BTW, Frazier's amazing game seven shouldn't be a knock on Jerry West. Frazier surely outplayed him, but this wasn't a mano vs. mano thing where West was exposed in a direct matchup. He was simply outplayed in this game by an amazing player. IIRC, West played well.

[andykeikei]

Well I've seen people leave off Willis Reed from the ballot. No way a guy who wins both League/Finals MVP shouldn't be considered the best that year as he didn't fail at anything.

Didn't you see those good reasons that multiple posters posted? Reed was repeatedly destroyed in the playoff against rookie Kareem and 2nd year Wes Unseld. It could be argued that he was not even the most valuable player on his own team...

So, other than Reed winning awards and fitting your criteria, do you have any other arguments against them? I think they have a pretty good case to be honest.

[ronnymac2]

Oh yeah, Unseld! I knew Wes had outrebounded the Knicks in a game before, but I didn't know it was in such an important spot in the playoffs. That's **** awesome. Unseld definitely gets an HM.

[Doctor MJ]

Whose fault is it that Wilt didn't score more? Unless the coaching staff were making a concerted effort to make Wilt the focus of the offense and Wilt deliberately passed shots off because he felt like throwing a championship or was taking shots but at an extremely low percentage (and I don't think he did - he shot 63% for the series) then I fail to see how it's a valid point.

Also, how do you know if Wilt scored more they'd have won? What if he didn't score and they still won because certain players played slightly better (or worse on the Knicks, like say Dick Barnett misses the game winning jumper in game 3 of OT and the Lakers go up 2-1). I'd think if we redid the finals and the Lakers won, Wilt plays the exact same the people arguing against Wilt would suddenly be heralding his play in the finals and saying how amazing it was for him to completely change how he played the game even just 2 years prior.

It just seems like a rehash of the 1973 thread logic.

First off, in game 6, when Wilt scored 45 the Lakers won by 22. You're bringing up a bunch of hypotheticals here of "how do we know?", but it just seems quite clear that the Lakers in game 7 would have liked Wilt shooting more, and that if he could have done so effectively the Lakers would have won.

Now second point I want to make is a rehash of what we talked about before but I want to bring it up any way. In game 7, the Lakers' TS was 49.6% (Knicks was 55.3%), and the Lakers committed a ton of turnovers (as they did all series, with game 5 being the worst). This was an offense getting shutdown. I'm not saying in this paragraph how the blame should be passed around, but the idea that Wilt shouldn't get part of the blame when he was the one guy with the crazy match up advantage, and he'd just proven he was capable of scoring 40+ in the right circumstances just doesn't make sense to me. I think it just clearly says something about his limitations in one way or another.

Last, as far as proportions of blame go for the Lakers in this series, I could definitely listen to arguments saying Wilt isn't the biggest culprit. The perimeter players in that series had huge problems getting trapped into bad passes.

[Doctor MJ]

Honestly, just from what I've seen in this thread, it seems to me that Alcindor was pretty solidly better than West even as a rookie. In the regular season their stats were relatively close, but when in doubt doesn't a big usually have a bigger non-statistical impact on a game than a wing? I recognize that West was a good perimeter defender, but big men defenders just have a bigger effect than wing defenders and Alcindor (even then) was recognized as an excellent defensive big that dominated the glass. Even if it we were just voting on the regular season I'd have Alcindor edging out West.

But in the postseason, it seems like Alcindor blew West out of the water. I mean, 35 points on 61% TS with 17 boards and 4 assists with a PER over 29? And he outplayed Reed, the MVP, head-to-head in their series? Even if Reed was forced to defend him 1-on-1 as opposed to receiving help as some type of "let him get his" strategy...the fact that he could explode all over the reigning MVP 1-on-1 is still a pretty big statement.

Even if West was injured for a part of the Finals, his postseason just doesn't even look comparable to Alcindor's. In fact, Alcindor's postseason was up several notches even from West's regular season.

I guess I'm just not seeing how West is winning by such a consensus in the votes so far. Am I missing something?

Well first, read my previous post about Kareem if you haven't. I've made some arguments for why you shouldn't get too excited about Kareem's post-season.

Re: Bigs bigger non-statistical impact than a wing? I wouldn't feel comfortable saying that. I'd say in general, perimeter players have the edge on offense, bigs on defense. I'd say the intangible edge of veterans over rookies is bigger than either edge. And I'd say that in an era with a lot more turnovers, the impact of the most productive thief in history (West) was probably huge. Not Russell huge, but Kareem's defensive impact was not close to Russell's.

[Sedale Threatt]

Honestly, just from what I've seen in this thread, it seems to me that Alcindor was pretty solidly better than West even as a rookie.

Interesting. I actually had the exact opposite impression. I came in with the full intent on voting for Kewreem Albar-Jacindor, and now I'm thinking West would be the better option. The postseason is obviously pretty epic. But Jerry was just great across the board.

Going to be a tough choice. I'm reading some good arguments for both sides. I'll probably end up siding with Kewreem because of the dominant big thing, but Jerry's got about as good a case for a guard as you can make -- points, playmaking, defense.

The TS is off the charts. The fact he outdid the center in question here over the course of an 82-game RS is pretty impressive, in my opinion.

[Manuel Calavera]

First off, in game 6, when Wilt scored 45 the Lakers won by 22. You're bringing up a bunch of hypotheticals here of "how do we know?", but it just seems quite clear that the Lakers in game 7 would have liked Wilt shooting more, and that if he could have done so effectively the Lakers would have won.

I don't see where it's "quite clear" that if Chamberlain scored more they'd have won, one game doesn't prove what you're saying.

Now second point I want to make is a rehash of what we talked about before but I want to bring it up any way. In game 7, the Lakers' TS was 49.6% (Knicks was 55.3%), and the Lakers committed a ton of turnovers (as they did all series, with game 5 being the worst). This was an offense getting shutdown. I'm not saying in this paragraph how the blame should be passed around, but the idea that Wilt shouldn't get part of the blame when he was the one guy with the crazy match up advantage, and he'd just proven he was capable of scoring 40+ in the right circumstances just doesn't make sense to me. I think it just clearly says something about his limitations in one way or another.

Or it says something about the coaching staff not making a concerted effort to get the ball to Wilt, or it says something about the guards who were turning it over, or it says a million other things. You look at the stats and believe what you want to believe but I still don't see that the two arguments I brought up are explained. It's never been established that if Wilt scored more they'd win, in fact that's not even been true in the earlier days in his career when all he did was score. It's also not been established that anyone in the organization even thought Wilt scoring more would be a good idea. I don't recall anyone on the Lakers saying Wilt lost the series because of his shooting or lack thereof.

Last, as far as proportions of blame go for the Lakers in this series, I could definitely listen to arguments saying Wilt isn't the biggest culprit. The perimeter players in that series had huge problems getting trapped into bad passes.

Wilt's legacy should only be improved after this year. He came back from a career ending injury (a broken leg) in record time and carried a 46 win team that he hadn't played on all season to the NBA finals and then brought them to game 7 against arguably the greatest team ever. Even if we discount that the Knicks coasted for much of the season there's still a 14 game gap between the two teams and for Chamberlain to make up that distance is nothing short of amazing.

[Doctor MJ]

First off, in game 6, when Wilt scored 45 the Lakers won by 22. You're bringing up a bunch of hypotheticals here of "how do we know?", but it just seems quite clear that the Lakers in game 7 would have liked Wilt shooting more, and that if he could have done so effectively the Lakers would have won.

I don't see where it's "quite clear" that if Chamberlain scored more they'd have won, one game doesn't prove what you're saying.

That's about the most glaring correlation you'll see in any kind of conversation like this. I don't know what kind of argument could possibly resonate with you if that one can't.

Last, as far as proportions of blame go for the Lakers in this series, I could definitely listen to arguments saying Wilt isn't the biggest culprit. The perimeter players in that series had huge problems getting trapped into bad passes.

Wilt's legacy should only be improved after this year. He came back from a career ending injury (a broken leg) in record time and carried a 46 win team that he hadn't played on all season to the NBA finals and then brought them to game 7 against arguably the greatest team ever. Even if we discount that the Knicks coasted for much of the season there's still a 14 game gap between the two teams and for Chamberlain to make up that distance is nothing short of amazing.

How is this a response to my quote? I gave you a reconciliatory point which you could build on to convince me, and probably a bunch of people, and you totally ignored it.

Just responding to your point though, the notion that he "carried" a weak team to amazing heights is just so weird. This was the 3rd straight year the team made the finals, and they gave a great fight in the finals all 3 years - and this year they arguably didn't do as well in against the Knicks as the Bullets did in the 1st round despite the fact the Lakers got to play their final 3 games against the Knicks without anything like a normal Reed.

[Dr Positivity]

1. Jerry West
2. Lew Alcindor

Tough one, came down to I'd rather go to war with the 10 year vet with just under 100 playoff games and 6 finals (not counting this year for either number) over the rookie.

3. Frazier
4. Reed

Seem like clear 3 and 4. Reed was injured in the playoffs while Frazier put up a historic Game 7. It's not Reed's fault he was less productive in the most important games, but nonetheless it doesn't change the fact that he was.

5. Billy Cunningham - Seems like the Sixers played at the league's fastest pace, but even if he was more of a 23.5/11/3.5 guy on a regular team, that's still awesome. Sixers won 42 games but had 3rd best SRS and 49 W pythagorean, so I can't dock him too much for not winning.

*Almost* put Unseld 5th. He even scored pretty well this year and those rebonding numbers against the Bucks are wow.

Lots of good HMs this year: Unseld, Hudson (Hawks were #1 in the West!), Oscar (statistically #3 player but couldn't adapt to playing with Norm Nixon + missed games), Debusschere (the ultimate glue guy on a GOAT contender team, Knicks fans always say had unbelievable non stats impact), Monroe (best offensive player on team who gave Knicks hard run), Wilt (good PS), Haywood (went god mode on the ABA), Mel Daniels (won ABA title), Barry (27/7/5, NBA success pre and after shows not just a product of ABA)