Retro POY '70-71 (Voting Complete)

[Sedale Threatt]

Yeah, I haven't been dishing out much punishment for missing games, but when you don't play in the playoffs, that's pretty tough to overlook. I don't know, I'm guessing here, but maybe that's why the Lakers didn't win it all?

Honestly, this Buck team was one of the greatest ever, and the Lakers didn't become fantastic until Sharman came in the next year.

Yeah, I don't honestly expect the Lakers to have beaten them. I was just making a facetious comment in response to the Lakers not having won it all, despite the fact one of their best players missed the playoffs. Kind of hard to beat anybody when that is the case.

[ElGee]

Information on the Bulls-Lakers series is hard to come by, but Jim McMillian was certainly regarded as the star of the first two games filling in for West (26 in G1, 20 in G2). The only mention of Wilt was his 18-21 in G1. In G5, Chicago turned it over 22 times and Goodrich had 33 points and 11 assists. Wilt had 8.

For the series, Wilt averaged 15.7 ppg 21.1 rpg 6.1 apg 42% FG

Ran the +/- on LA's last 11 games without West and it was a monstrous +11. (West did miss 2 other games.) The schedule was brutal down the stretch, but at least 7 were at home. I think it's pretty fair to say Jerry West was the second best player in the league in 1971. It's also fair to say that in the long run they probably weren't some dreadful -6 differential team.

From a post by julizaver over at insidehoops:

Wilt v. Kareem 1971 WCF

G1
Chamberlain 22 pts, 20 rebs, 1 as, 8 blocks, 10-19 FG/FGA – 3 blocks against Jabbar
Abdul-Jabbar 32 pts, 22 rebs, 1 as, 1 blocks, 14-30 FG/FGA

G2
Chamberlain 26 pts, 22 rebs, 0 as, * blocks, 10-21 FG/FGA - Wilt blocked many shots
Abdul-Jabbar 22 pts, 10 rebs, 4 as, * blocks, 9-19 FG/FGA

G3
Chamberlain 24 pts, 24 rebs, 3 as, * blocks, 9-19 FG/FGA W
Abdul-Jabbar 20 pts, 19 rebs, 6 as, * blocks, 8-16 FG/FGA L

G4
Chamberlain 15 pts, 16 rebs, 2 as, * blocks, 7-14 FG/FGA
Abdul-Jabbar 31 pts, 20 rebs, 5 as, * blocks, 14-20 FG/FGA

G5
Chamberlain 23 pts, 12 rebs, 4 as, 6 blocks, 10-21 FG/FGA – 5 blocks against Jabbar
Abdul-Jabbar 20 pts, 15 rebs, 5 as, 3 blocks, 7-23 FG/FGA

Series avg:
Wilt 22.0 ppg 18.8 rpg 2.0 apg 49% FG
Lew 25.0 ppg 17.2 rpg 4.2 apg 48% FG

All 4 Bucks wins were senseless drubbings, so I have no idea how much King Lew rested down the stretch and if Wilt played.

Given the competition, his increase in usage and reportedly good defensive play, I think that Wilt "stepped up" in the postseason without West. That version was a top player. But to me, this is like Tim Duncan in 2006. It seemed people weren't rewarding Duncan then for a lackluster regular season + playoff explosion, and here Wilt is being rewarded with his name recognition when his playoffs weren't even as good comparatively.

During G5 of the Bulls series, Jerry West said that this was the best he'd seen Wilt rebound and play defense all year, which struck me as his way of saying "this is what you should always be doing!" (And he did in 1972.) Chicago 's TS% was .493 in that series, well off it's .512% from the regular season. LA's defense wasn't horrible in the RS...it was only right on par with the Detroit Piston's. Chamberlain's rebounding also jumps the next year along with the team's rebounding differential. In other words, what that team is getting from Chamberblain in 1971 doesn't seem close to what they're getting the following year.

[ElGee]

My 1971 POY Ballot:

1. Lew Alcindor
2. Walt Frazier
3. Oscar Robertson
4. Dave Bing
5. John Havlicek

Wasn't sure about Alcindor at No. 1, but no one else really took the spot, so I guess he can have it.

West and Reed had postseason injuries so they were out. Feel pretty comfortable with Frazier at the top of the next group, thanks to his defense, but Clyde doesn't seem to be quite the offensive player he would become the following year. Checked the numbers and his scoring dipped noticeably -- which could be a function of role -- but I'll still give him the edge over the other guards.

Oscar was the trickiest player to place relative to these players. Statistically, he's actually not that far off from 1970. He always ran good offenses with marginal teams, and now that I've ingested all things Milwaukee 1971, it's clear to me that he was a complete and balanced point guard steering a dominant ship. He Scored extremely well and ran the league's best offense. The Bucks offense from 70 to 71 didn't change drastically, but how much better could they get?

The "Big O" was a fitting nickname -- guy was like a mini horse treading up and down the court. He used a massive backside and strength to clear space, and was so deliberate with his movements. But it's a constant barrage of up-fake, jumper, drive, jumper, great pass. He looks like that unstoppable 50 year old in a club league who does whatever he wants. That skill-set and proof of value is enough to give him the nod over the others.

Dave Bing may not be one of the 50 greatest players ever based on career, but in 1971 he had a wail of a season. All-NBA over Oscar and 3rd in MVP, and it's not like he was white...or played in a big city...or his team won 60 games. Great scoring option who could distribute the ball and sparked a really solid Detroit offense. I also think if he were on a team comparable to Havlicek's that the results would be similar. The easy way to go would be Havlicek based on career, but I'm sticking to what seems like a stronger season here from Bing.

I'll take Hondo's all-around game over a down year from Chamberlain (as outlined above), Cunningham (just not really confident of his value) and Thurmond (close, led 2nd best defense but the offense leaves too much to be desired). Someone mentioned the Celtics seem like they should be better -- young White, rookie Cowens cleaning the glass, etc. -- but I think it's hard for Havlicek to impact the game as a lead player like his truly elite peers. Still a heck of a year from him doing what he was doing.

Special Mention to Phil Jackson, for taking over for 2 key minutes in this awesome game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POpLoIvB ... 11#t=4m35s

[shawngoat23]

I adjusted my ballot.

1. Lew Alcindor
2. Walt Frazier
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Jerry West
5. John Havlicek
HM: Oscar Robertson, Billy Cunningham

Some of the posts since my original ballot have convinced me to give Wilt more credit (thanks ElGee), as he played Kareem pretty well. This comes at West's expense because he wasn't available for a lot of time. I'm not terribly impressed with the Lakers' performance this year, but I cannot realistically believe that Billy Cunningham is a superior player to Wilt Chamberlain overall, so he gets bumped for the #5 spot.

Not sure how to gauge Oscar this year, so I left him out.

[drza]

1) Alcindor
2) Wilt
3) Oscar
4) Frazier
5) West

Number one was easy. Actually, so was number two. Wilt was still the other dominant big man in the league, and his performance reminds me of post 2002 Shaq where he wasn't what he once was but was still right at the top of the league barring transcendence in others. I liken the Big O this season to some of the other great 2nd options we've seen on great championship teams that I've comfortably slated into the top-5 even if their numbers weren't what they might have been were they the "man". Frazier seemed clearly to be the best of the rest, barring West, but give West a "minus one" for the injury timing and facing off against a player of similar impact. Hondo almost snuck over West as well, but in the end he didn't have any postseason performance so he couldn't overcome West's better season.

[Manuel Calavera]

1. Lew Alcindor
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Oscar Robertson
4. Walt Frazier
5. John Havlicek

[Doctor MJ]

'70-71 Results

Code: Select all

Player                1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts   POY Shares
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 17   0   0   0   0 170   1.000
2. Walt Frazier         0   5   6   6   0  83   0.488
3. Wilt Chamberlain     0   6   5   0   3  70   0.412
4. Oscar Robertson      0   1   5   3   3  44   0.259
5. Jerry West           0   3   1   3   3  38   0.224
6. John Havlicek        0   2   0   3   5  28   0.165
7. Billy Cunningham     0   0   0   1   1   4   0.024
8. Dave Bing            0   0   0   1   0   3   0.018
9. Zelmo Beaty          0   0   0   0   2   2   0.012


[semi-sentient]

Site updated: www.dolem.com/poy

Kareem is now just behind Jordan by .031 shares. He'll pass him up and probably crack the 10 POY Shares mark after his final voting season. Walt Frazier has a shot of cracking the top 15 as he's just .551 behind Wade. I'm guessing he makes it, but it probably doesn't matter since Wilt will knock him off after a couple more voting seasons.

Code: Select all

1.  Michael Jordan       9.578
2.  Kareem Abdul-Jabbar  9.547
3.  Magic Johnson        7.114
4.  Tim Duncan           6.153
5.  Larry Bird           6.147
6.  Shaquille O'Neal     5.910
7.  Julius Erving        5.046
8.  Karl Malone          4.649
9.  Hakeem Olajuwon      4.380
10. Kobe Bryant          4.326
11. Moses Malone         3.478
12. Kevin Garnett        3.388
13. LeBron James         3.083
14. David Robinson       2.431
15. Dwyane Wade          2.179

[bastillon]

using my brand new combine team WS method to estimate ORTg/DRtg I'm shocked at how awesome Bucks were on offense this year.

70: 29.9 OWS, 20.7 DWS
71: 43.8 OWS, 23.7 DWS

for reference...
87 Lakers: 38.6 OWS, 24.7 DWS
07 Suns: 40.4 OWS, 19.9 DWS

so what this means is that Oscar joins an above average offensive team and they become all-time great offensively. that's Oscar past his prime and playing as a 2nd fiddle. of course Bucks added more players but neither Lucius Allen (48.5 TS, 0.7 OWS) nor Boozer (50.2 TS, 1.7 OWS) were great offensively that year. Kareem went from 51.8 to 57.7 in FG%. that's nasty.

thoughts on Oscar's impact ?

[Doctor MJ]

using my brand new combine team WS method to estimate ORTg/DRtg I'm shocked at how awesome Bucks were on offense this year.

70: 29.9 OWS, 20.7 DWS
71: 43.8 OWS, 23.7 DWS

for reference...
87 Lakers: 38.6 OWS, 24.7 DWS
07 Suns: 40.4 OWS, 19.9 DWS

so what this means is that Oscar joins an above average offensive team and they become all-time great offensively. that's Oscar past his prime and playing as a 2nd fiddle. of course Bucks added more players but neither Lucius Allen (48.5 TS, 0.7 OWS) nor Boozer (50.2 TS, 1.7 OWS) were great offensively that year. Kareem went from 51.8 to 57.7 in FG%. that's nasty.

thoughts on Oscar's impact ?

1) Big.

2) However, Kareem really did take a quantum leap this year, and he put up individual stats at around this level in years post-Oscar.

3) This is the point in Oscar's career where he actually acts like what we now call a point guard, instead of simply as a lead guard (who basically acts as point & shooting guard while the other guard occupies space). Since we know how good teams can be with a stellar point guard and good teammates, I'd say Oscar deserves credit for making clear he can play this role, but I wouldn't treat this as "even decrepit Oscar had huge impact, so peak Oscar must have 5X better!".

[bastillon]

1) Big.

2) However, Kareem really did take a quantum leap this year, and he put up individual stats at around this level in years post-Oscar.

3) This is the point in Oscar's career where he actually acts like what we now call a point guard, instead of simply as a lead guard (who basically acts as point & shooting guard while the other guard occupies space). Since we know how good teams can be with a stellar point guard and good teammates, I'd say Oscar deserves credit for making clear he can play this role, but I wouldn't treat this as "even decrepit Oscar had huge impact, so peak Oscar must have 5X better!".

but how do you know if Kareem himself was better or whether it was Oscar who improved him ? how many times does it happen that one's FG% goes up by 5.9 ? it's simply too much improvement for one year, especially considering 4.3 more pts per36. Kareem almost DOUBLED his OWS (from 9.3 to 17.0) and improved in volumes by 7.7. that's unparalleled for NBA history.

what makes me even more confident is KAJ's assists. (per36) 3.4 in rookie season, 3.0 in 71, 3.7 in 72 and then around 4 for the next decade. it wasn't until 82 that KAJ's assists were so low. usually finishers tend to have less assists than primary initiators and while Kareem created a lot of offense for his teammates, he was clearly having less responsibilities in that area in 71.

to follow up on your point about Kareem duplicating that season offensively...

Code: Select all

year  PtsPer36

 70     24.1
 71     28.4
 72     28.4
 73     25.4
 74     22.2
 75     25.5
 76     24.2
 77     25.7
 78     25.4
 79     21.7
 80     23.3
 81     25.3
 82     24.4
 83     24.3
 84     23.6
 85     23.7
 86     25.3
 87     20.1
 88     18.2
 89     15.9

so really Kareem's best years coincided with Oscar's best years as a Buck. btw it's amazing how Magic helped KAJ... he extended his career by about 5 years. Kareem didn't lose any of his scoring in the late 80s. minutes aside, he was just as effective as in his prime (excluding Oscar years). Magic's scary.

look at OWS - best years again in Milwaukee.

so there you have it: unimaginable rookie-soph improvement, very low APG for those volumes, best scoring years in 2nd and 3rd season... I think it says a lot about Oscar's impact that year.

[Doctor MJ]

A good response bast.

I'd say part of the reason I'm reluctant to treat Kareem in this period as being light years more effective than later years is that we don't see a similar statistical trend in the playoffs.

[bastillon]

A good response bast.

I'd say part of the reason I'm reluctant to treat Kareem in this period as being light years more effective than later years is that we don't see a similar statistical trend in the playoffs.

yeah he screwed up in 73 mainly. he couldn't have done anything in 72 though. Oscar wasn't there and they were swarming him with defensively minded Wilt on him as well. that's as tough as it gets.

what about Oscar's impact though ? (to stay on topic)