Tyreke Evans or Derrick Rose?

[Hold That]

I'll take Tyreke Evans

@ the guy that said Rose has a chance to be top 5.

Top 5 in the NBA, not all time. Rose is already on the cusp of the top 10, it is pretty reasonable to see him having a good chance at being a top 5 player. We know he has the athleticism and skills for it. Who in the year 2017 is a lock to be better than him? Only LeBron and Durant IMO.

i know what you meant...and @ already on the cusp of the top 10...
I can't tell the future to see what happens in 2017, new players might come in and be better than Rose...but as of right now I doubt he will be a top 5 player.

So wait, you can't name any other players when he proves his point, and you mention "players in the future" who have yet to be discovered, and you continue to laugh at him? Name 13 players in the NBA ahead of Rose..

you wont provide a list I'm sure.

[YounG_A]

So wait, you can't name any other players when he proves his point, and you mention "players in the future" who have yet to be discovered, and you continue to laugh at him? Name 13 players in the NBA ahead of Rose..

you wont provide a list I'm sure.

name 13 players in the NBA that are better than Rose now?

[ZzAzZ]

Rose easily.
I don't see Evans style being very conducive to winning basketball games, he's a guy that will put up big pretty stats and maybe be on a 1st round type of playoff team.

Pretty much the way I feel. People seem to be very high on him because of his stats. Granger, Kevin Martin, Bosh, Ellis and guys like that get into a dangerous territory where they put up numbers but can't carry their team to wins and get it in their heads (and others) that they are franchise guys and end up crippling them until they are gone. Not saying this is the same with Evans but it's something I'd be cautious of. All of this of course can be thrown out the window if Cousins becomes a top 3 center which it seems he certainly has the potential to do.

[Winsome Gerbil]

We've done this thread before, and I still say Evans, who IS a guy who has a chance to be Top 5. He's a more complete player than Rose, bigger, physically dominant, with a chance to be a top guy on both sides of the ball. He's just a jumper away from superstardom. I know exactly what he looks like as a superstar. Its that same sort of complete fill up every corner of the stat sheet game that the Kobes, LeBrons, Wades, Pierces, TMacs etc. have had.

Rose...I've never been able to quite find a comparison for "high end Rose". He's obviously a high end player and a guy who's going to be a multiple time All Star at the very least, but who is the superstar who has played like him? His scoring is his biggest thing, yet how many points can you actually score as a score first PG before it actually becomes disruptive? And without the defense or physicality Evans has on the boards and inside, how else is Rose going to make an impact? If he really concentrates on passing and let's say gets up to 21pts 9 assists, then he becomes kind of a Deron figure. A great player, but below the superstar level. If he concentrates on raising his scoring how high before it raises quetions? If he is 25pts 6ast, is that a good thing? It looks like Monta Ellis. A star for sure, but I just have has a hard time plotting out his "superstar" ascent. Maybe he can high end it into a Isiah Thomas sort of figure, but that's a narrow and unlikely target.

[Jvaughn]

Top 5 in the NBA, not all time. Rose is already on the cusp of the top 10, it is pretty reasonable to see him having a good chance at being a top 5 player. We know he has the athleticism and skills for it. Who in the year 2017 is a lock to be better than him? Only LeBron and Durant IMO.

i know what you meant...and @ already on the cusp of the top 10...
I can't tell the future to see what happens in 2017, new players might come in and be better than Rose...but as of right now I doubt he will be a top 5 player.

So wait, you can't name any other players when he proves his point, and you mention "players in the future" who have yet to be discovered, and you continue to laugh at him? Name 13 players in the NBA ahead of Rose..

you wont provide a list I'm sure.

Ignore him Poohdini. He comes into every Rose or Chicago based thread to hate.

[YounG_A]

Ignore him Poohdini. He comes into every Rose or Chicago based thread to hate.

so I'm hating because I said he doesn't have a chance at being a top 5 player and is laughable to say he does and also that I don't think he is "already on the cusp of the top 10."
Is my own opinion..it doesn't mean I'm hating on the guy.

sorry I'm not a Rose dick rider like you.

[RekeHavoc]

Rose easily.
I don't see Evans style being very conducive to winning basketball games, he's a guy that will put up big pretty stats and maybe be on a 1st round type of playoff team.

Pretty much the way I feel. People seem to be very high on him because of his stats. Granger, Kevin Martin, Bosh, Ellis and guys like that get into a dangerous territory where they put up numbers but can't carry their team to wins and get it in their heads (and others) that they are franchise guys and end up crippling them until they are gone. Not saying this is the same with Evans but it's something I'd be cautious of. All of this of course can be thrown out the window if Cousins becomes a top 3 center which it seems he certainly has the potential to do.

All of those guys are finesse guys though who you can't count on for points or #2s/#3s. Tyreke is not a finesse player, he gets to the rim vs anyone, he's physically dominant vs PGs and faster than SGs. He also gets a lot of rebounds and plays good D, which guys like KMart and Ellis don't do. You mentioned a bunch of guys who score but you left out that Tyreke is already much closer to becoming a complete player than any of them(except for maybe Bosh, because he gets boards and scores too). From the guard position which of those guys gives you 20/5/5 with good D? None of them.

As a Kings fan who SAW Martin play for a few years, the problem with him is he was a one dimentional scorer. We always hoped he would come in and add something else to his game, like defense(he had the quickness to do it and was a good defender as a 2nd year player, but not the commitment) or more rebounding but he never was able to do it. He wasn't a good ball handler or passer so he couldn't create shots for anyone else. That's not the case with Tyreke, he can play the 1 or 2 the 2 and he can score vs most players. He can handle well and he's able to pass. How many of those guys had tripple doubles as a rookie like Tyreke did? None of them. Not to mention he was close to doing it in 2 or 3 other games as well. Just because he has somewhat of an ISO game you guys like to rip on him as a guy who is a selfish player who doesn't impact the game a lot but that's a load of crap. He can create for his teammates and he can handle the ball, and he gets rebounds and plays defense well. He's a complete player, and once he adds a jumpshot he's going to be insanely good.

[rpa]

Always amuses me how much of a Ric Bucher clone Cammo101 is. Pre and post draft he states Evans is going to suck, etc. Now that Evans has proven Cammo101 to be an utter failure at his bread and butter (talent evaluation) he pulls a Ric Bucher and does nothing but hate on him until the end of time (see: Bucher on anything Kings related after they resigned Webber and made him look like an idiot).

The hilarious thing is trying to say that Evans doesn't have as high a ceiling? Uhm, excuse me; this guy was borderline unstoppable getting to the hole playing alongside (in other's words) below average to bad players AND without a jumper. Can you imagine what happens when this guy develops a jumper and better teammates that force a defense to stay honest? Not only that but he miles and MILES ahead of Rose as a defender and his size and wingspan isn't likely to change that.

Furthermore, people knock Evans as being not an athlete (he's a mediocre one, not the terrible one people pretend he his) while ignoring that his agility, change of speed/direction, and size for his position are off the charts. Evans may not be able to jump over the big guys like Rose can but he's big enough to go through a lot of them (or at least take a hit and finish) and agile enough to get pretty much anywhere on the floor that he wants.


Anyways, back to the topic....

For their career I'd say Evans because:
a) He and Rose are damn close now and he's a year and a half younger.
b) I think his lack of any kind of a jumpshot gives him a higher ceiling than Rose does.
c) I believe his size and length are going to always make him not only a much more intimidating offensive player than Rose but a better defensive player than Rose. Rose can put on some muscle but there's no telling whether or not he'll lose quickness because of that weight. Evans already has that weight and he's still quick.

That said, I could EASILY see Evans/Rose becoming the new Deron/Paul debate where they're basically equal but both sides will argue their own guy to death.

[-Illmatic-]

Ignore him Poohdini. He comes into every Rose or Chicago based thread to hate.

so I'm hating because I said he doesn't have a chance at being a top 5 player and is laughable to say he does and also that I don't think he is "already on the cusp of the top 10."
Is my own opinion..it doesn't mean I'm hating on the guy.

sorry I'm not a Rose dick rider like you.

Well Derrick is sorry for letting your girlfriend ride his dick, now can you please stop hating on him every chance you get? especially on the Bulls board you are probably one of the worst trolls on the board. Posters like you are the reason why Heat fans are hated on this site.

[Cammo101]

Always amuses me how much of a Ric Bucher clone Cammo101 is. Pre and post draft he states Evans is going to suck, etc. Now that Evans has proven Cammo101 to be an utter failure at his bread and butter (talent evaluation) he pulls a Ric Bucher and does nothing but hate on him until the end of time (see: Bucher on anything Kings related after they resigned Webber and made him look like an idiot).

From my draft site on June 23, 2009 (One day before the draft for those scoring at home)...

Tyreke Evans (6'5'', SG, Memphis, Fresh.)
Extremely talented player with all the skills to be a great NBA player. Evans will need to learn to play off the ball more and to get his teammates involved. He is a solid shooter and a great slasher who can finish at the rim. Excellent defender and a tough competitor. All the skills are there, if the head catches up, he can be an all star.


You were saying?

It just goes to show you how homertastic this board is when this is considered hating. You point out that Evans is not as good as his stats and people start acting like you think he should be in the WNBA.

[Jase]

Rose. He's more dependable, he'll win more, and his ceiling is impressive.

[Cruel_Ruin]

The caveat behind the "inflated numbers on a terrible team" argument is that while Evans did get to dominate the ball, he was:

1. actually very efficient for a rookie
2. opposing teams lined up every defense imaginable to stop Evans from getting to the rim, the same kind of defense that Lebron and Wade see on a daily basis. Very few succeeded
3. The team actually IMPROVED by 8 games (and in actuality improved by much more. The 17 win mark was actually inflated that year because all of veterans were traded halfway through the season. If the team did not have Salmons and Miller the whole year they would have won maybe 12 games, and it is that Salmons and Miller-less team that Evans inherited)

So, its interesting for people to continue bantering the same rehashed arguments when they simply hold no water because they are somehow expecting Evans to lead the least talented and youngest roster in the league to the playoffs in his rookie year.

[Cammo101]

The caveat behind the "inflated numbers on a terrible team" argument is that while Evans did get to dominate the ball, he was:

1. actually very efficient for a rookie
2. opposing teams lined up every defense imaginable to stop Evans from getting to the rim, the same kind of defense that Lebron and Wade see on a daily basis. Very few succeeded
3. The team actually IMPROVED by 8 games (and in actuality improved by much more. The 17 win mark was actually inflated that year because all of veterans were traded halfway through the season. If the team did not have Salmons and Miller the whole year they would have won maybe 12 games, and it is that Salmons and Miller-less team that Evans inherited)

So, its interesting for people to continue bantering the same rehashed arguments when they simply hold no water because they are somehow expecting Evans to lead the least talented and youngest roster in the league to the playoffs in his rookie year.

While that may all be true, it still speaks to why Evans' numbers likely will not rise much. He already is dominating the ball and shooting pretty much every trip, so there is not much room to go up. Add to that the fact that at some point he will be forced to share some of the limelight and ball, and when that happens, his numbers will have to come down.

No one said he dominates the ball so he stinks.

[rpa]

You were saying?

I had no I dea Sacramento was planning on playing Evans as a full time PG, in that case I sure will adjust my grade.

Sacramento - F

Evans was a terrible PG at Memphis. He never got his teammates involved and only played PG because he was killing them as a SG. Evans played PG in college and high school so he could call his own number and shoot all the time. That will not fly in the NBA. The good news here is Sacramento will likely be so bad next year with him at the point that they can draft John Wall.

Immediate post-draft reaction to your draft grades by a fellow poster:

In the months leading up to the draft (i.e. around March Madness time, before we got a good idea of what the GMs were actually thinking), the 2 players who most of the board was very high on, but Cammo was very down on (saying "fans like these 2 more than GMs") were Tyreke Evans and Terrence Williams. They went 4th and 11th, Cammo for the longest time had Tyreke barely in the lottery, and TWill barely in the 1st round. The 2 guys who Cammo was high on, that everyone else on this board didn't really like, were Chase Budinger and Wayne Ellington, who ended up going 44th and 28th. Just saying, take his draft advice with a grain of salt. These grades seem to reflect the basic idea of Tyreke and TWill being garbage, with Budinger being solid, which is an idea that few seem to share outside of Cammo.

It's not just me who remembers your hatred of Evans from pre & post draft.

Evans will be an absolute trainwreck as an NBA point guard. Just because he looked good in workouts against other guards (of which he was a lot taller and stronger) does not make him a point guard. Being a point guard is about controling the flow of a game and getting your teammates involved. Evans can not and will not do these things. Sacramento will be the worst team in the league next year if Evans is their starting point guard, but at least that will allow them to draft a real point guard.

And to answer your forthcoming "he played SG last year" comment: no, on offense (which is what you're referring to in all these posts) he played PG with Udrih playing off the ball most (but not all) of the time.

[Cruel_Ruin]

The caveat behind the "inflated numbers on a terrible team" argument is that while Evans did get to dominate the ball, he was:

1. actually very efficient for a rookie
2. opposing teams lined up every defense imaginable to stop Evans from getting to the rim, the same kind of defense that Lebron and Wade see on a daily basis. Very few succeeded
3. The team actually IMPROVED by 8 games (and in actuality improved by much more. The 17 win mark was actually inflated that year because all of veterans were traded halfway through the season. If the team did not have Salmons and Miller the whole year they would have won maybe 12 games, and it is that Salmons and Miller-less team that Evans inherited)

So, its interesting for people to continue bantering the same rehashed arguments when they simply hold no water because they are somehow expecting Evans to lead the least talented and youngest roster in the league to the playoffs in his rookie year.

While that may all be true, it still speaks to why Evans' numbers likely will not rise much. He already is dominating the ball and shooting pretty much every trip, so there is not much room to go up. Add to that the fact that at some point he will be forced to share some of the limelight and ball, and when that happens, his numbers will have to come down.

No one said he dominates the ball so he stinks.

Not necessarily true. Yeah, he's going to see the ball less but he's still going to be the number 1 option on the team. In addition:

1. An improved jumpshot means he probably will be scoring more
2. Improved teammates will mean he gets assisted more on baskets and more assists
3. The above two in combination mean easier driving lanes to the basket

Its not hard to see Evans averaging 3-5 more points and 1-2 more assists per game in his prime.

[method]

Gonna have to go with Evans on this one there arent many rookies that start off with 20/5/5.

[Neon Black]

13 Players that are better than Rose right now:

Lebron
Kobe
D-will
CP3
Dwight Howard
Wade
Durant
Duncan by a small margin
Chris Bosh
Carmello Anthony
Dirk Nowitzki
Pau Gasol
Brandon Roy

And then some would at least make cases for Nash, Brook Lopez, Even Boozer and Jefferson, but all of that's up in the air.

Oh yeah...one more better player to make is an even 14...Tyreke Evans.

[Nicky Nix Nook]

at Cammo...always hating on Evans...."but wait, I didn't say he stinks!"

Seriously man either a) admit you were wrong about Evans, or b) just admit that you hate him because he proved you wrong.

Watching you relentlessly protect your ego is just humorous to say the least.

[YounG_A]

Well Derrick is sorry for letting your girlfriend ride his dick, now can you please stop hating on him every chance you get? especially on the Bulls board you are probably one of the worst trolls on the board. Posters like you are the reason why Heat fans are hated on this site.

they mad now....no need to get all emotional on me Rose lover.

if "hating" is me saying he is not a top 10 player, a future top 5 player, the future number 1 PG, well then so be it..those are my opinions I don't see him being as the great and special player you Bulls fans try to make him out to be.

Heat fans are hated because of what happened this summer, if I didn't have an account here they would still be hated.

[Winsome Gerbil]

The caveat behind the "inflated numbers on a terrible team" argument is that while Evans did get to dominate the ball, he was:

1. actually very efficient for a rookie
2. opposing teams lined up every defense imaginable to stop Evans from getting to the rim, the same kind of defense that Lebron and Wade see on a daily basis. Very few succeeded
3. The team actually IMPROVED by 8 games (and in actuality improved by much more. The 17 win mark was actually inflated that year because all of veterans were traded halfway through the season. If the team did not have Salmons and Miller the whole year they would have won maybe 12 games, and it is that Salmons and Miller-less team that Evans inherited)

So, its interesting for people to continue bantering the same rehashed arguments when they simply hold no water because they are somehow expecting Evans to lead the least talented and youngest roster in the league to the playoffs in his rookie year.

While that may all be true, it still speaks to why Evans' numbers likely will not rise much. He already is dominating the ball and shooting pretty much every trip, so there is not much room to go up. Add to that the fact that at some point he will be forced to share some of the limelight and ball, and when that happens, his numbers will have to come down.

No one said he dominates the ball so he stinks.

I have often said that guys who average 16.2 shots a game are just murderous ballhogs. I mean, that's shooting every trip! I also often note that you know, once a guy has hit age 20 and is a rookie, I mean, that's it baby. Pretty much don't have to worry about any improvements, extra efficiency, devlopment of thier game. They just are who they are.

Its a brilliant argument, really it is. And don't you let anybody tell you any different. Its especially brilliant when you use it in a debate between that topped out 20yr old taking 16.2 shots a game and a 21yr old who takes 17.6 shots a game. I'm thinking you should just spout it off one more time and add a /thread behind it. Its that good. Really.