Retro POY '69-70 (Voting Complete)

[Doctor MJ]

Also where are you getting the 42 points in 55 possessions stat? Did you count them yourself or is there a boxscore?

Counted the 55 myself.

you mentioned 3 times he was able to score, I don't if that counts Frazier's block of West and Wilt's recover but let's say you did. IIRC he still got more rebounds offensive rebounds then that and if you're just looking at points generated per possession you won't see that.

I did count it.

You're right that offensive rebounds in general are a good thing. I was focusing on Wilt's scoring primarily because of the debate as to whether there was a problem with his scoring. No one debates whether Wilt getting 20+ rebounds is a bad thing, so I take that as a given.

My criticism of Wilt is very specific: That he was made the primary scoring option on offense, and he proved completely incapable of fulfilling that role. His rebounding was fine, and his conversion of offensive rebounds to easy scores was just fine.

I believe the announcers even said Frazier had 10 steals midway through the second (I think 14 TO's is a bit on the light side ElGee but I don't have any stats to argue). Walt Frazier, Bill Bradley and Dave DeBusschere scored their 15 field goals on their first 21 attempts. I really really find it hard to see how this is Wilt's fault.

I don't recall them saying Frazier had 10 steals in the second quarter, and I'd be shocked if that were true. Frazier was great though.

The Knicks' scoring isn't something I'd seek to hang on anyone in particular. They were hitting jumpshot after jumpshot with an efficiency they just can't do consistently. They got hot at the best possible time - and this is why I preface my original post a statement that the Lakers got unlucky, and that more than anything else the game should be viewed in that lens.

It's true though that the focus of my post was on Wilt's scoring, because that was the question I had in my mind. If teammates aren't looking to get him the ball, and he scores 20, that's perfectly fine. If a guy is constantly fed the ball with the intent to have him score, and his coverage is typically a single gimp, that very much speaks to his limitations.

Willis Reed won that Finals MVP because people were shocked at how well he kept Wilt in check. After watching the performance myself, while I still disagree with not giving Frazier the nod, I do understand why people were so shocked.

[lorak]

Times the ball was passed into Wilt in the post in the first half: 21
Made field goals: 2
Missed field goals: 5
Fouled: 4 times, 1-8 shooting
Turnovers: 3

So the tally: 5 points in 14 used possessions.
.

No Lakers offensive rebounds after missed FG or FT? Because you know - even if you miss, but your team get offensive rebounds it's still one possession.

I hope I'll rewatch this game and count this on my own, so we could comapre results.


My votes:
1. West
2. KAJ
3. Big O
4. Reed
5. Frazier

[Manuel Calavera]

My criticism of Wilt is very specific: That he was made the primary scoring option on offense, and he proved completely incapable of fulfilling that role. His rebounding was fine, and his conversion of offensive rebounds to easy scores was just fine.

You're trying to focus on a small part of the game (Chamberlain's scoring, not offense because I've established you're pretty much ignoring his other contributions) and then extrapolating that into saying it's pretty much all his fault or that he played terribly, and then even worse further extrapolating that into blaming him personally on a fundamental level like saying he's mentally weak or lacks a killer instinct.

The Knicks' scoring isn't something I'd seek to hang on anyone in particular. They were hitting jumpshot after jumpshot with an efficiency they just can't do consistently. They got hot at the best possible time - and this is why I preface my original post a statement that the Lakers got unlucky, and that more than anything else the game should be viewed in that lens.

Wilt got unlucky, because somehow even though the Knicks were able to shoot long range jumpers at 72% and were able to force the guards into committing turn-over after turn-over that resulted in easy transition baskets none of which mind you he had any control over the game was still his fault.

Willis Reed won that Finals MVP because people were shocked at how well he kept Wilt in check. After watching the performance myself, while I still disagree with not giving Frazier the nod, I do understand why people were so shocked.

That's simply not true, Reed won the MVP because he played extremely well in the Finals and gave the team an emotional lift in game 7 that sparked one of the all-time great performances from his teammates. I probably would have given it to Frazier as well but Reed was deserving.

[Doctor MJ]

You're trying to focus on a small part of the game (Chamberlain's scoring, not offense because I've established you're pretty much ignoring his other contributions) and then extrapolating that into saying it's pretty much all his fault or that he played terribly, and then even worse further extrapolating that into blaming him personally on a fundamental level like saying he's mentally weak or lacks a killer instinct.

I don't see what the mystery is here. If Wilt disappointed as a scorer in this game, that's worth knowing. I've become fixating on determining whether he disappointed largely because you (and possibly others, I don't remember) were so adamant that he did not disappoint which went against everything I've ever heard about this game.

As to whether I'll seek to use this in my general understanding of Wilt - certainly.

Wilt got unlucky, because somehow even though the Knicks were able to shoot long range jumpers at 72% and were able to force the guards into committing turn-over after turn-over that resulted in easy transition baskets none of which mind you he had any control over the game was still his fault.

Okay dude. Obviously I disagree - can't think of anything else to say I haven't already said.

That's simply not true, Reed won the MVP because he played extremely well in the Finals and gave the team an emotional lift in game 7 that sparked one of the all-time great performances from his teammates. I probably would have given it to Frazier as well but Reed was deserving.

What I meant was that if people hadn't been so impressed by Reed's performance holding Wilt down, he doesn't win the award. Obviously, if he were some scrub who'd done nothing previously, his game 7 wouldn't have been enough to convince anyone to vote for him as Finals MVP.

Just keep in mind, that when people talk about Willis Reed, the first thing they typically talk about is this game. And if Wilt had scored 40 in this game, that would not be the case even if the Knicks had won.

[Doctor MJ]

Times the ball was passed into Wilt in the post in the first half: 21
Made field goals: 2
Missed field goals: 5
Fouled: 4 times, 1-8 shooting
Turnovers: 3

So the tally: 5 points in 14 used possessions.
.

No Lakers offensive rebounds after missed FG or FT? Because you know - even if you miss, but your team get offensive rebounds it's still one possession.

I hope I'll rewatch this game and count this on my own, so we could comapre results.

Good points. I'll admit to be new to box score tracking, and I was really focused on Wilt, and primarily with his success when going up against the defense. What you bring up is relevant to actual usage, I was focused on trying to give a picture of Wilt's effectiveness and probably shouldn't have phrased it like I did.

Incidentally, if people think I'm overreacting to Wilt's efficiency looking so bad, I'd like to hear thoughts. I have to confess I don't know what big men's TS% against a set defense exactly looks like under normal circumstances. Clearly, many big men see their TS% raised due to shots off of offensive rebounds.

I look at those numbers for Wilt though, and it seems clear that a better strategy would have been to only go into Wilt sparingly, and have him focus on getting offensive rebounds. It only makes sense to work to push the ball in to your big man if he can shoot higher from inside than your other guys can do from outside - and in this game - that was absolutely not the case. The Lakers could have shot better, and shot easier with a different strategy. Even if you think the goats of the game are the perimeter guys for their turnovers getting the ball to within 25 feet of the basket, the recognition that then giving the ball to Wilt was an additional mistake seems clear.

[shawngoat23]

1. Jerry West
2. Walt Frazier
3. Lew Alcindor
4. Willis Reed
5. Billy Cunningham

I believe that Jerry West was the best player in the league, and even in a losing effort, I maintain this belief.

Walt Frazier was at least as important to the Knicks' success as Willis Reed was during the regular season, and that Game 7 performance (in my opinion, one of the two greatest playoffs performances ever--I wobble between that and Magic's Game 6 as a rookie) weighs very big in my mind. I know a lot of voters on this panel don't like assigning disproportionate weight to a single game, but in this case, the game is the entire season. Reed gets a nod at #4, but there's no way you can convince me that his inspirational presence was worth more than 36/7/19 on terrific efficiency with smothering defense.

Kareem was an excellent player as a rookie, but he wasn't quite as great as he would later become. He didn't even make 1st team All-NBA this year, although I suspect that there is an inherent bias against younger players compared to more established veterans.

No one really jumped out at me for the #5 spot, but I felt that Billy Cunningham had a better case than the likes of Oscar Robertson, John Havlicek, Lou Hudson, Mel Daniels, etc.

[ThaRegul8r]

My final ballot is unchanged:

1. Jerry West. 31.2 points (1st in the league) on 49.7 percent shooting and 57.2 percent true shooting (6th), 4.6 rebounds, 7.5 assists (4th). Led league in PER (24.6), win shares (15.2) and offensive win shares (11.5); finished second in win shares per 48 minutes (.234). Led Lakers to 46-36 record without Wilt Chamberlain, who played only 12 games. Finished second by 41 points in the MVP voting to Willis Reed (498-457). My Retro Regular Season MVP.

In the postseason averaged 31.2 points on 46.9 percent shooting and 55.0 percent true shooting, 3.7 rebounds and 8.4 assists (led playoffs) in 46.1 minutes per game. Led playoffs in points (562), field-goals attempted (418) and made (196), free throws attempted (212) and made (170), win shares (3.2) and offensive win shares (2.6). In the NBA Finals averaged 31.3 points on 45 percent shooting and 54.9 percent true shooting, 3.4 rebounds and 7.7 assists in 47.9 minutes per game.


2. Lew Alcindor. 28.8 points (2nd in the league) on 51.8 percent shooting (7th), 14.5 rebounds (3rd), 4.1 assists in 43.1 minutes per game (2nd). NBA Rookie of the Year. The Milwaukee Bucks were 27-55 the previous season—the second-worst record in the league—with Alcindor they finished 56-26, the greatest single-season turnaround in NBA history. The previous season Wes Unseld was Rookie of the Year and MVP, averaging 13.8 points, 18.2 rebounds and 2.6 assists in 36.2 minutes per game in turning the Bullets around from a 36-26 record—fourth-worst in the league—to an NBA best 57-25, a 21-game turnaround. Alcindor posted better statistics and led the Bucks to a bigger turnaround—29 games. Furthermore, Kareem took Milwaukee to the Eastern Conference Finals, while Baltimore became the first division winner to be swept from the playoffs.

In the postseason averaged 35.2 points (led playoffs) on 56.7 percent shooting (led playoffs), 16.8 rebounds and 4.1 assists in 43.5 minutes per game. Led the playoffs in PER (29.4), effective field goal percentage (56.7), true shooting percentage (60.8), and win shares per 48 minutes (.286).


3. Walt Frazier. 20.9 points on 51.8 percent shooting (9th in the league) and 57.5 percent true shooting, 6.0 rebounds (third on team behind Willis Reed [13.8] and Dave DeBusschere [10.0]) and 8.2 assists (2nd [to Lenny Wilkens (9.1)]) in 39.5 minutes per game (8th). Led league in win shares per 48 minutes (.236); finished second in the league in win shares (15.0 to league-leader West’s 15.2), second in the league in defensive win shares (6.4)—but received the most votes of anyone on the All-Defensive Team with 27 of 28, fifth in the league in PER (21.1), fifth in offensive win shares (8.6), and fifth in true shooting percentage (57.5%). Fourth in MVP voting behind Willis Reed, Jerry West, and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

In the postseason averaged 16.0 points on 53.1 percent true shooting (1st on the team), 7.8 rebounds (third on the team behind Reed [13.8] and DeBusschere [11.6]) and 8.2 assists in 43.9 minutes per game (1st on the team). Led playoffs in defensive win shares (1.5); led Knicks in win shares (2.8) and offensive win shares (1.3). My Retro NBA Finals MVP. Averaged 17.6 points on 54.1 percent shooting and 59.7 percent true shooting, 7.7 rebounds and 10.4 assists in a team-high 43.1 minutes per game, 23.7 points on 62.8 percent shooting from the floor, 89.5 percent shooting from the line and 69.1 percent true shooting, 6.7 rebounds and 12.7 assists in 44.3 minutes per game in the three games after Reed went down, and in the deciding Game 7 had 36 points on 80.8 percent true shooting (12-17 FG, 12-12 FT), seven rebounds, 19 assists, and four steals to lead New York to a 113-99 win.


4. Willis Reed. 21.7 points on 50.7 percent shooting, 13.9 rebounds (6th in the league), 2.0 assists in 38.1 minutes per game. Led league in defensive win shares (7.5). First Team All-NBA, First Team All-Defense, NBA Most Valuable Player.

In the postseason averaged 23.7 points, 13.8 rebounds (6th) and 2.8 assists in 40.7 minutes per game. Led team in PER (20.1) during the playoffs, and was second on the team in win shares (2.6), offensive win shares (1.1), defensive win shares (1.4), win shares per 48 minutes (.168). Undeserved NBA Finals MVP, which does not factor in my ranking.


5. Billy Cunningham. 26.1 points (4th in the league), 13.6 rebounds (7th) and 4.3 assists in 39.4 minutes per game (10th). Improved numbers in second year as a starter. Fifth in MVP voting.

In the postseason averaged 29.2 points on 49.6 percent shooting, 10.4 rebounds and 4.0 assists in 41.0 minutes per game.

[bastillon]

great posts by the Doc (not so much in regards to Manuel).

re: Reed. I wonder what was his rebound rate though. by my eye, it's about 17 which is pretty good actually and considering his offensive rebounding wasn't particularly strong, I'd imagine he was a nasty defensive rebounder, sort of like Garnett, though to a lesser extent obviously.

I don't recall them saying Frazier had 10 steals in the second quarter, and I'd be shocked if that were true. Frazier was great though.

this guy sees what he wants to see. Frazier had 5 steals in the ENTIRE game and that's been brought up in this thread already. seriously, 10 steals... that's called "homering your way in the debate".

voting:

1.Jerry West. I'm not convinced he's at all better than rookie KAJ, but after putting it all in some context thanks to Elgee's contributions in '69 thread, I can justify taking him over KAJ. normally I'd favor big men with global defensive impact, but I haven't seen any evidence supporting Kareem in that regard. their team defense was actually average and he was much more of an offensive big, where West edges him quite easily anyway.

2.KAJ. solid choice. I don't feel like anyone was quite on his level aside from West.

3.Oscar. 25/8/6 on great efficiency is still awesome. his TS% relative to his team was like 10% better which is something I don't think I've ever seen. looks a lot like KG in mid 00s to me, surrounded by total crap and barely holding this team together. his team not regressing the next year was a combo of several factors and having analysed them somewhat deeply, I can say in confidence that Oscar made some big impact on that team, but they improved outside of him in '71 (meaning they'd be a much better team with Oscar). his impact is more or less reflected in Bucks dominance the next 2 years.

this reminds me of Nash situation. Dallas never really regressed and you could make a case that Nash didn't make much of an impact here. as you go into the details though, his impact on the new team is enormous and Dallas just changed almost everything and them not regressing had nothing to do with Nash's supposedly overrated impact.

4.Reed. shotblocking/rebounding backbone of the best defensive team in the league, while also providing team leading scoring. I feel like he was clearly more valuable to that team than Frazier, who just gained a lot more recognition for his epic G7 performance. he was nowhere to be found in the first 4 games though, when Reed was the only thing keeping them from getting swept. just by the way Knicks played without Reed we can easily tell how big his impact was. losing that G6 to those Lakers is no shame, but losing it by that margin and letting Wilt score 45 clearly is. I liked the way Reed defended him in G7 and then took him out of the paint too, because of his 2 jumpshots he made.

5.Frazier. I don't like his low volume scoring, I love his rebounding and defense and I hate the way others contributions are taken for granted while all the credit goes to him. he wasn't all that important to Knicks. I mean he was great, and that's why he's in my TOP5, but there were players that could fill that role just as well.

I still have some catching up to do and perhaps that'll change my opinion about Frazier. as for now, I don't feel like he's that type of player people here think he is. MVP recognition doesn't seem to be his strength. I heard about this racism/ABA crap, but I'm not sold on this. if so, then why give him all the defensive awards when there are guys that you could easily put in the same sentence (Sloan, West, Hondo). if he was really disrespected it would be on several areas, not just in one. combo of stats and team success are more or less consistent with his MVP Shares, which doesn't make me supicious. if his impact was that much more than his stats suggest, I heard no argument so far to make me believe so.

[Sedale Threatt]

1. West. As usual, did everything he could possibly do to help the Lakers win. Having a better TS% than Lew is pretty ridiculous.

2. Alcindor. I have nothing more to say about one of the two best players in history. Great, and great from the very start.

3. Frazier. Toss-up with Willis. I love his Game 7, one of the most under-appreciated big-game performances in sports history, so that's a tie-breaker for me.

4. Reed. Could have easily gone with him at No. 3. So he loses a spot; big deal. He's probably a player you'd appreciate more the more you got to watch him play.

5. Robertson. Don't see him finishing outside the top five for the rest of the project. Another guy who's only real flaw was that he didn't play for the Celtics.

[Optimism Prime]

1. Jerry West
2. Lew Alcindor
3. Walt Frazier
4. Willis Reed
5. Wes Unseld

HM: Billy Cunningham

EDIT: This ballot brought to you by the letter W.

[ronnymac2]

The Knicks WERE on fire that night. Barnett and Frazier couldn't miss. Barnett's role on that team reminds me of Rip Hamilton. Off-ball scorer who just supplies consistent points. Average at everything else.

Final Rankings:

Jerry West
Kareem Alcindor Jabbar Lew Abdul
Frazier
Reed
Robertson

Giant HM: Cunningham

HM: Unseld

If Frazier hadn't had his game 7, and if I didn't feel Reed and Frazier needed to be tied at the hip, I'd have put Oscar third. Interesting year. Glad I researched earlier in the week, because I couldn't do **** the past couple of days due to moving.

[bastillon]

Barnett's role on that team reminds me of Rip Hamilton. Off-ball scorer who just supplies consistent points. Average at everything else.

Barnes was just a spot-up shooter for 70s standards. Hamilton was a 1st option on 6-time ECF team. in the game played 100poss pace Hamilton would score about 25 vs Barnett's 10 by my eye. so that's kinda big difference.

Hamilton's underrated, man. couple of years ago Pistons had the best backcourt in the NBA and everyone feared them. good times.

[drza]

1) Kareem
2) West
3) Reed
4) Frazier
5) Cunningham

Bastillion made the best counterpoint that I've seen regarding the Kareem/West question, in that Reed did put up good numbers against Kareem in the postseason as well so maybe Kareem wasn't yet a dominant defensive player...not sure it's that big of a sin to give up good numbers to the MVP, even above his average numbers, but point taken. Still, at the end of the day, Kareem still dominated that matchup. When you face the MVP 1-on-1 and in the matchup you go +7 points, +6 boards and +2 assists per game while also shooting at better efficiency from the floor it sure looks to me like you killed it. Whether those numbers were compiled going for 35 and 17 vs 28 points and 11 or 15 and 11 vs 8 and 5, in the end I think you did your job to the highest level. As I've already said, based off the numbers and the team effect I'd have given Kareem the slight nod over West based off the regular season only, and the fact that he stepped up his game big time in the postseason just seals it for me. I don't care if he wasn't as good as he would one day become, to me it still looks like in 1970 Kareem was already the best in the league.

West is the obvious other top-2 player.

Reed and Frazier seems to be the next to logical players. Reed was the best player all season, and from what I can tell was the best in the postseason as well up until the last 3 games of the Finals. Finals MVP are kind of arbitrary anyway, but league MVP is a solid award and even if he's a controversial choice there he was obviously right on top of the league to be up for the award. So on my ballot that gives Reed the advantage over Frazier.

Number five is almost a toss-up. I've seen good arguments for Cunningham, Unseld and even a few shouts out to Oscar. I almost voted for Unseld, but in the end the mass of Cunningham posts swayed me.

[TrueLAfan]

The Knicks WERE on fire that night. Barnett and Frazier couldn't miss. Barnett's role on that team reminds me of Rip Hamilton. Off-ball scorer who just supplies consistent points. Average at everything else.

Barnett was a good player; pretty good ballhandling skills. Barnett moved well without the ball and had a terrific head fake…and that strange jump shot was considered one of the best in the league. (His nickname/catchphrase, “Fall Back Baby,” referred to his teammate, who could just go back on D when Barnett shot the ball.) He was, rightly, considered a valuable player. The comparison with Rip Hamilton is a good one (so is your description), although Barnett was physically a thicker/bulkier guy.

This 1963 article from Time magazine (!) is a nice overview.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,896610,00.html

[Doctor MJ]

Last call.

[ronnymac2]

The Knicks WERE on fire that night. Barnett and Frazier couldn't miss. Barnett's role on that team reminds me of Rip Hamilton. Off-ball scorer who just supplies consistent points. Average at everything else.

Barnett was a good player; pretty good ballhandling skills. Barnett moved well without the ball and had a terrific head fake…and that strange jump shot was considered one of the best in the league. (His nickname/catchphrase, “Fall Back Baby,” referred to his teammate, who could just go back on D when Barnett shot the ball.) He was, rightly, considered a valuable player. The comparison with Rip Hamilton is a good one (so is your description), although Barnett was physically a thicker/bulkier guy.

This 1963 article from Time magazine (!) is a nice overview.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... -2,00.html

The article didn't come up.

My dad said Barnett had one of the weirdest shots he had ever seen. I remember watching that game seven a while back and whole-heartedly agreeing while being in shock that he was on fire. Whatever works. haha


Bast....I miss hating the Pistons. I can dislike teams now and root against them, but Detroit really used to get me mad a few years ago. After Billups got traded, I could finally admit that he was one of my favorite players.

[Doctor MJ]

'69-70 Results

Code: Select all

Player               1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts   POY Shares
1. Jerry West         17   2   0   0   0 184   0.968
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1  15   2   1   0 128   0.674
3. Walt Frazier        0   2   9   6   2  79   0.416
4. Willis Reed         1   0   6  11   0  73   0.384
5. Billy Cunningham    0   0   0   0  13  13   0.068
6. Oscar Robertson     0   0   2   0   2  12   0.063
7. Spencer Haywood     0   0   0   1   0   3   0.016
8. Earl Monroe         0   0   0   0   1   1   0.005
   Wes Unseld          0   0   0   0   1   1   0.005



[semi-sentient]

Site updated: www.dolem.com

Kareem becomes the first player to crack the 10 shares mark, ending with 10.221. No other changes to the top 15, but Jerry West will be making an entrance (knocking off Wade) after the next round of voting.

Code: Select all

1.  Kareem Abdul-Jabbar  10.221
2.  Michael Jordan        9.578
3.  Magic Johnson         7.114
4.  Tim Duncan            6.153
5.  Larry Bird            6.147
6.  Shaquille O'Neal      5.910
7.  Julius Erving         5.046
8.  Karl Malone           4.649
9.  Hakeem Olajuwon       4.380
10. Kobe Bryant           4.326
11. Moses Malone          3.478
12. Kevin Garnett         3.388
13. LeBron James          3.083
14. David Robinson        2.431
15. Dwyane Wade           2.179

[lorak]

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1078623

West's lack of left hand (all these Frazier's steals --> Knicks transition offense) )was one of the main reasons why Lakers lost, not Wilt's play (BTW G6 was also a elimination game and Wilt played great).