Detroit vs. Milwaukee Comparison

[Spider156]

I understand how many games were missed last season, and I see why that hurt us so much. But we need to stop overstating the role of injuries. We actually did have most of these players: Prince (49 games played), Hamilton (46), Gordon (62), CV (78), Bynum (63), and Wallace (69) for the majority of last season. Yes, the fact that they didn't play together is also a big reason for the lack of success.
What I think is interesting is that everyone is saying that Rip and Tay need to be gone for this team to be any good. Well crazy thing is, when they were gone last season, we didn't do to hot. I get that by moving them we hope to pick up an important piece, but that would mean we can't simply do a salary dump with Rip.
To say that the Pistons are capable of winning 45+ games, to me, seems too much of a stretch. The last few years in the Eastern Conference, teams with 45+ wins finished at least in 6th place. If most of us agree, like many have, that the Pistons will be fighting for the 7/8 spots, it won't be with a winning record, but more likely a .500 record or even a few games under .500.

So you're saying what we all are saying. With a little more chemistry and role definition we'll win in the 40s. And no because they were gone our practice didn't work as it should have without them. It's a different situation when you say "he's gone and he'll come back later" then when you say "he's gone and won't come back so I have to step it up"
NONE of those players were the same as when they came into the season. CV's nose was broken and needed a mask (change in play). Bynum never recovered from his TWO ankles. Gordon is STILL recovering and recently said he was "85%". I wonder what he was when he was playing. Hamilton needed 10 games in order to get back to work missing half the season let alone get to how he's supposed to be. And Prince is still recovering from his back. Wallace won't be playing 30mpg this season because of the rookie Monroe. I'd gladly split the two for 24 mpg each.

Not to mention the chemistry never built up because of the injuries. I'd like to see Miami without Lebron for half a season and see what their chemistry becomes with him back at 60%.

[Spider156]

Subtract 15 wins in every scenario and I agree with you. Do you guys realy think Ben Wallace is going to return to 04 form and lay 30mpg? Eventualy hes going to break down with an injury or hes going to lose another step. It reminds me of Brett Favre to be honest. I think the Pistons are on the right path but we are not 20 wins better than last yr in a conferance which has improved.

So you're saying we'll win 20 games without chemistry and fully healthy? Well, unfortunately that's when you're wrong considering we have Rip, Prince, and Wallace together who won a championship. They're not they same as before but I think they can win 20 games alone without our young talent.

[Warspite]

ESPN says they win 18 games but you think 45-50. Ill bet the reality is about halfway and they win 33 games. I see 1 playoff team dropping and the Nets, Knicks, Pacers, Wiz all improving. We get 4 easier games vs the Cavs but games againt the bottom feeders will be tougher.

[epheisey]

They won a championship in 04!!! That was 7 seasons ago now! Please be realistic here. I totally understand the desire as a fan to see them succeed but you're setting yourself up for a broken heart my friend. Like I stated before 31-40 wins is what you'll see this season.

Western Conference Losses
Lakers
Denver
San Antonio
Dallas
Utah
OKC

Western Conference Split Series
Sacramento
Golden State
New Orleans
Portland
Houston

Eastern Conference Losses
Miami
Boston
Orlando
Atlanta
Chicago

Eastern Conference Splits
Charlotte
New York
New Jersey
Philly
Washington


So 2 losses to each of the top West teams=12
1 Loss to each in the next tier=5
3+ Losses to each of the top East teams=15
1+ Losses to each in the next tier=9

That was probably being generous because I only accounted for 3 games a piece for other EC teams, when we play some 4 times.
This is also assuming we sweep every other team in the NBA not listed here. I know that there is always room for error, but in general those errors make up for each other because chances are we may lose a few to bad teams at times.
That accounts for a total of 41 losses and thus 41 wins.
Explain to me how we're going to beat those teams more consistently than that?

[beyond_the_arc]

The Bucks won't win any more than 10 more games than us.

Of course, after winning 19 more than the Pistons last year, Charlie V is going to put it all together.

[Spider156]

When did I say they'll win more than 45+. I keep on repeating 40s. I've always said that. I said 45+ if they gain lots of chemistry which would take 2 seasons to build up. Go read it again, you'll see that I said that.

[Drwho17]

The only thing that separates Milwaukee from Detroit is Skiles. The Pistons are a more talent laden team. Hammond went with an impress the fans move bringing in Skiles, he's the kind of coach that can get a team to over achieve for a couple of years before they get sick of him, see Doug Collins. Pistons won 27 games last year, starting rookie second rounders, 3 rookies on the roster, heavy injuries and a rookie head coach.

They've added a 7 foot skilled big man this year, picked up a veteran with something to prove and subtracted Kwame Brown, and the Eastern conference including their own division has many weaker teams then last year.

[paul]

Also I wouldn't trade Stuckey for Jennings. I believe Stuckey is better because of his defense. Defense is more valuable than offense. Jennings is overrated. He scored his 40 something points because teams haven't figured him out yet. The same happened to Stuckey and the same will happen to Collison.

The fact that anyone in this thread is even mentioning Redd shows that a lot of you guys really know very very little about the Bucks. Redd is done, if Redd was 100% healthy right now he would still never play a game with the Bucks again. The Bucks management kept Redd away from the team last season, he wasn't even in the state during the playoff games while our other injured players watched from the bench, and they are already doing the same this season. Apart from his very valuable expiring insured contract Michael Redd is for all intents and purposes no longer a Buck, nor will he ever be again.

As the the Stuckey being a better defender than Jennings comment, you've either barely ever seen Jennings play or haven't had even a cursory glance at many defensive statistics lately, or maybe you know some other ones that I don't use?
Jennings was the better defender of the two last season by so far they weren't even in the same stratosphere. Jennings had a DRating of 104, Stuckey 112. That's like comparing the DRating of prime Ben Wallace with David Lee.

If there's a GM in basketball who wouldn't trade Stuckey for Jennings right now I'd love to meet him.
If you want to rate your own guy over Jennings just to stick with your own guy that's fine, but you're going to need a better reason than defense if you want it to be credible.

I'm not here to tell you guys your business, but that thread on the Bucks board was a discussion stemming directly from Hollinger's rankings where a few Bucks fans gave negative, but it has to be said legitimate, opinions for the Pistons have a cloudy future - you can disagree of course but getting offended over a legit opinion is kind of silly. No one was talking smack, they were saying the Pistons will be bad moving forward because of factors X & Y, this thread has seen far more ignorant 'smack talking' than that one did and it stemmed from legit national reporting not from one fan crying over his team being ranked lowly by opposing fans. As for the Bucks thinking they are the new Pistons, that's a truly ridiculous comment. There is no doubt Hammond is TRYING his best to emulate the success you guys had with a defense first no star mentality while he was with you, but no one is saying the Bucks are the new championship Pistons, they are saying that's what they a 'trying' to be.

I'm happy to put on the line that the Bucks (assuming health) will win 10 more games than the Pistons this season imo, for reasons mostly that are very obvious to most of the basketball world and have been stated by a small minority in this thread. That doesn't mean I'm gloating about it, the Bucks have been complete crap for several seasons prior to the last one and all Bucks fans know that, we know better than anyone what it's like when your GM signs a couple of guys to horrible contracts and bogs you down for several seasons, most of our fans can definitely empathize.

[ComboGuardCity]

From my little understanding about Drtg, 80% of the rating comes from team defense. Is that correct?

[epheisey]

The only thing that separates Milwaukee from Detroit is Skiles. The Pistons are a more talent laden team. Hammond went with an impress the fans move bringing in Skiles, he's the kind of coach that can get a team to over achieve for a couple of years before they get sick of him, see Doug Collins. Pistons won 27 games last year, starting rookie second rounders, 3 rookies on the roster, heavy injuries and a rookie head coach.

They've added a 7 foot skilled big man this year, picked up a veteran with something to prove and subtracted Kwame Brown, and the Eastern conference including their own division has many weaker teams then last year.

I'm having a hard time finding which teams besides Toronto and Cleveland got worse this offseason. Indiana swapped a PF for a PG, which could possibly make them better, but I'd find it hard to say worse. NJ, Philly, NY, Wizards, and CHI all got better. The other teams that perhaps got worse didn't move enough for me to say that they're going to be easy pickings for the Pistons, i.e. Charlotte.

[pass first]

From my little understanding about Drtg, 80% of the rating comes from team defense. Is that correct?

Actually 100% I believe.

But Jennings is a good defender. He presses the ball handler up the court, his quickness allows him to stay in front of most guys well. His defense is probably better than his offense right now. So the original post was a bit funny. Worst thing about ennings game last year was poor shooting, something that's probably easier to improve than things like court vision, and the physical qualities he has as well as mental are very good.

[swedisheagle74]

Changes don't always make team's better.

Detroit is 1 trade away from 50 wins and leap frogging the Bucks into contention, while the Bucks are 1 injury away from the Lottery.

[DetroitPistons]

Barring injuries, detroit is better than milwaukee. wallace made bogut his bitch last year. im not to scared of him. jennings is good but is a bit of a chucker and turnover prone. maggettee will hurt the team. salmons is good but nothing special. our bench blows theirs out of the water as well. detroit will finish second in the division behind chicago.

[RTM]

You're all overrating our team right now (maybe I am too). I think we're in the 38-42 win range if healthy. Milwaukee should be 48-52, IMO.

But I don't think the Bucks are going to be more than a possible 2nd round team come the postseason. They've got their own lingering health issues, and I'm convinced Maggette will hurt the team as a whole more than he'll help.

[Cowology]

The Pistons have the talent to be a 50 win team, but not the pieces. We're still a quality big-man away and Dumars has a little work to do in terms of rebalancing the roster and consolidating some talent.

[Master Shake]

The Pistons have the talent to be a 50 win team, but not the pieces. We're still a quality big-man away and Dumars has a little work to do in terms of rebalancing the roster and consolidating some talent.

Absolutely, from the looks of it, we need to make a 2 or 3 for 1 trade ASAP.

[DanoMac]

Are you high?

Fixed for Pistons fans in this thread.

Good Lord almighty this has been some of the most comedy I've ever seen on RealGM. You would take Stuckey over Jennings? You put like half our roster out of position.

[Cowology]

The Pistons have the talent to be a 50 win team, but not the pieces. We're still a quality big-man away and Dumars has a little work to do in terms of rebalancing the roster and consolidating some talent.

Absolutely, from the looks of it, we need to make a 2 or 3 for 1 trade ASAP.

Agreed.

And while ideally that would fill a hole (center???), at this point I'm not sure it even matters. If we could consolidate some talent in order to significantly upgrade any starting position I think we should at least take a look at it. It wouldn't exactly kill us to have 1 really really good player on the floor.

[Warspite]

The Pistons have the talent to be a 50 win team, but not the pieces. We're still a quality big-man away and Dumars has a little work to do in terms of rebalancing the roster and consolidating some talent.

Absolutely, from the looks of it, we need to make a 2 or 3 for 1 trade ASAP.

Agreed.

And while ideally that would fill a hole (center???), at this point I'm not sure it even matters. If we could consolidate some talent in order to significantly upgrade any starting position I think we should at least take a look at it. It wouldn't exactly kill us to have 1 really really good player on the floor.

Yeah!!!

Lets make a trade for a 6'8" swingman that can do everything. Then bring in the Teal and relive it all.

[Cowology]

^Right, because that is exactly what I had in mind and the comparison is totally valid.