Dan Haren Vs. Ming Wang

oakfanintheeast · Post #1 » by **oakfanintheeast** » Fri May 11, 2007 4:49 am

who ya got.. yankees fans apparently think on their board, wang is A) better b) an Ace C) not having a strike out pitch doesn't matter

bigboy1234 · Post #2 » by **bigboy1234** » Fri May 11, 2007 5:09 am

Haren is better.

Post #3 » by **Bleeding Green** » Fri May 11, 2007 5:14 am

Dan Haren is better.

Wang is an ace? LOL.

I think it's closer than some suggest, but maybe Wang is just all smoke and mirrors and he'll start getting hit hard all the time now. I doubt it, though. Even if he doesn't strike guys out, he's a groundball god and he doesn't walk anyone. It's really hard to succeed when you can't even strike out 4 guys per nine innings, though.

I think they'll both put up ERAs in the 3.8 to 4.2 range. Haren will pitch more innings, though.

Post #4 » by **FNQ** » Fri May 11, 2007 5:19 am

The debate there actually turned into whether or not Dan Haren has #1 stuff... his splitter is one of the best (if not the best) in the biz, I think this year's incredible start is closer to trend than mirage... I can see a low-mid 3 ERA this season, and turn into a consistent mid/low 3 ERA guy.

His location has improved so much this season... he defenitely has the stuff to be a #1.

oakfanintheeast · Post #5 » by **oakfanintheeast** » Fri May 11, 2007 5:29 am

Bleeding Green wrote:Dan Haren is better.

Wang is an ace? LOL.

I think it's closer than some suggest, but maybe Wang is just all smoke and mirrors and he'll start getting hit hard all the time now. I doubt it, though. Even if he doesn't strike guys out, he's a groundball god and he doesn't walk anyone. It's really hard to succeed when you can't even strike out 4 guys per nine innings, though.

zach duke and jeremy sowers agree.

bigboy1234 · Post #6 » by **bigboy1234** » Fri May 11, 2007 5:35 am

OaklandReggae wrote:The debate there actually turned into whether or not Dan Haren has #1 stuff... his splitter is one of the best (if not the best) in the biz, I think this year's incredible start is closer to trend than mirage... I can see a low-mid 3 ERA this season, and turn into a consistent mid/low 3 ERA guy.

His location has improved so much this season... he defenitely has the stuff to be a #1.

He's not that good though. Haren is a very solid #2. I wouldn't ever expect Haren to have a ERA lower than 3.50. His start is more of a mirage with his 1.89 ERA, because his xFIP is 4.06.

Post #7 » by **FNQ** » Fri May 11, 2007 5:37 am

bigboy1234 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

He's not that good though. Haren is a very solid #2. I wouldn't ever expect Haren to have a ERA lower than 3.50. His start is more of a mirage with his 1.89 ERA, because his xFIP is 4.06.

In the thread in the NY Forum, I addressed that he's still leaving balls in the strike zone, very high in the zone I might add... if theres a way to go game by game with that stat (I dont know if there is) I'd stake the house on him being a lot better with that in May than when he started in April....

Also last I heard, the xFIP is a decent indicator but nothing concrete, due to the fact that there is a # thats kind of arbitrary in the whole equation... but I havent heard an xFIP/FIP quoting in a while

Hoorah for the MLB Board

oakfanintheeast · Post #8 » by **oakfanintheeast** » Fri May 11, 2007 5:42 am

Someone posted:

These are the pitchers I would rather have over Haren at this point in their careers(in no particular order):
Matt Cain.. stretch
Jake Peavy
Felix Hernandez
Rich Harden*
Brandon Webb
John Lackey*
Chris Carpenter
Ben Sheets
Chris Capuano*.. stretch
Fransisco Liriano
Johan Santana
Justin Verlander*.. lol
Jeremy Bonderman*... lol
CC Sabathia*... lol
Carlos Zambrano
Cole Hamels
Dontrelle Willis*.. lol
Roy Halladay
AJ Burnett*.. lol
Chen Ming Wang.. lol
Josh Beckett*.. stretch
Daisuke Matsuzaka* .. do something, then maybe i'll agree.

Post #9 » by **FNQ** » Fri May 11, 2007 5:48 am

I remember that list...

Hamels, Wang, Burnett, Capuano, Bonderman, Verlander, Harden, and even Liriano (I hate slider-oriented pitchers with significant arm problems) I disagreed with... but whatever. Their opinions - I think people are having difficulty distinguishing the old Haren and the new things Haren is doing, specifically, locating the ball much better within the zone. No one's expecting a Bob Gibson-esque season here, but Haren seems to have put it all together so far this year. The only question is if he can keep doing it for the season.

Post #10 » by **Bleeding Green** » Fri May 11, 2007 5:49 am

Jeremy Bonderman is so amazing, dude. You're a homer if you'd rather have Haren. C.C. Sabathia, too. Matt Cain is not very good; Haren is considerably better. Don't LOL at Wang.

Matsuzaka has K'd more than a guy per inning. Maybe it's the homer in me, but he's legit. I don't know what you want him to do. He's had one bad outing in his MLB career. The 18 walks in 45 innings is a concern, but he never showed anything like that in Japan so I wouldn't expect it to continue.

I think you've got the rest right.

oakfanintheeast · Post #11 » by **oakfanintheeast** » Fri May 11, 2007 5:55 am

Bleeding Green wrote:Jeremy Bonderman is so amazing, dude. You're a homer if you'd rather have Haren. C.C. Sabathia, too. Matt Cain is not very good; Haren is considerably better. Don't LOL at Wang.

Matsuzaka has K'd more than a guy per inning. Maybe it's the homer in me, but he's legit. I don't know what you want him to do. He's had one bad outing in his MLB career. The 18 walks in 45 innings is a concern, but he never showed anything like that in Japan so I wouldn't expect it to continue.

I think you've got the rest right.

bonderman needs to post an ERA on the good side of 4.00 before giving him the 'amazing' title.

bigboy1234 · Post #12 » by **bigboy1234** » Fri May 11, 2007 5:58 am

Who LOL at Sabathia, CC is easily better than Haren.

Post #13 » by **FNQ** » Fri May 11, 2007 5:59 am

oakfanintheeast wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

bonderman needs to post an ERA on the good side of 4.00 before giving him the 'amazing' title.

Not quite fair, since Haren has only done it once and it was last season...

My reservations with Bonderman are his control within the zone (same as Haren) and that he throws a lot of pitches in his outings. It seems he's more focused on whiffing batters now than getting batters out... 2 years ago I would have been drooling over re-acquiring Bonderman... this year seems to be more of the 2006 version, which is a lot flashier but slightly less effective. Something he'll learn in time I suppose, but I cant imagine why the DET pitching coach (whoever it is) and Leyland are letting this kind of stuff happen.

Post #14 » by **Bleeding Green** » Fri May 11, 2007 6:41 am

C'mon now. He posted a 3.68 xFIP last year and a 3.42 so far this year. He has a 40/7 K/BB ratio on the year. That's ridiculously good. It's only a matter of time before things even out and his ERA is sitting at about 3.5.

Also, he's going to throw like 220 innings.

For whatever reason, the Tigers have played horrible defense behind Bonderman. Which is odd because they played great defense behind Rogers and Robertson last year and Verlander this year. Maybe this is his fault somehow, but I can't imagine why it would be.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/thtstats/m ... mit=Submit

oakfanintheeast · Post #15 » by **oakfanintheeast** » Fri May 11, 2007 7:10 am

Bleeding Green wrote:C'mon now. He posted a 3.68 xFIP last year and a 3.42 so far this year. He has a 40/7 K/BB ratio on the year. That's ridiculously good. It's only a matter of time before things even out and his ERA is sitting at about 3.5.

Also, he's going to throw like 220 innings.

For whatever reason, the Tigers have played horrible defense behind Bonderman. Which is odd because they played great defense behind Rogers and Robertson last year and Verlander this year. Maybe this is his fault somehow, but I can't imagine why it would be.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/thtstats/m ... mit=Submit

.. no i agree, but i wanna see him on the good side of 4.00 first.

Post #16 » by **Basketball Jesus** » Fri May 11, 2007 12:20 pm

I'd rather see Haren put up a STF above 20 before I even think of mentioning him in the same breath as Bonderman. And that's not even considering that Bonderman's 2 years younger.

cmaff051 · Post #17 » by **cmaff051** » Fri May 11, 2007 1:28 pm

Exactly, Haren doesn't have anything on the likes of Sabathia.

Give me a break, OaklandReggae, stop overrating your team's players. Haren isn't going to keep up this torrid pace. He's not an ace, never will be. :crazy:

Post #18 » by **FNQ** » Fri May 11, 2007 5:40 pm

cmaff051 wrote:Exactly, Haren doesn't have anything on the likes of Sabathia.

Give me a break, OaklandReggae, stop overrating your team's players. Haren isn't going to keep up this torrid pace. He's not an ace, never will be.

Yeah, because everything I've said points to me believing that?

The debate there actually turned into whether or not Dan Haren has #1 stuff... his splitter is one of the best (if not the best) in the biz, I think this year's incredible start is closer to trend than mirage... I can see a low-mid 3 ERA this season, and turn into a consistent mid/low 3 ERA guy.

His location has improved so much this season... he defenitely has the stuff to be a #1.

But I guess the fact that you've seen him extensively the past 3 years, you can tell me about him right? His location in the zone is nearly pinpoint now....

BTW BJ, Haren's STF last year was 21

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/2006OAK-A.php

I personally don't mind all this.. when the A's were playing the Twins last year in the playoffs, I was yelling on my old handle about how Haren will shoot out of the gate next year, as he was keeping most of his pitches down a lot more... and for 1.5 months, has done nothing but prove me right. /selfbackpatting

Post #19 » by **Basketball Jesus** » Fri May 11, 2007 6:07 pm

OaklandReggae wrote:BTW BJ, Haren's STF last year was 21
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/2006OAK-A.php

BP's hoodwinking us:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/harenda01.php

I demand answers.

The point still stands though: Bonderman's putting up better numbers at a younger age. That's no knock on Haren: he's an awesome pitcher. Bonderman's just more awesome-r.

Post #20 » by **FNQ** » Fri May 11, 2007 6:20 pm

Basketball Jesus wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

BP's hoodwinking us:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/harenda01.php

I demand answers.

The point still stands though: Bonderman's putting up better numbers at a younger age. That's no knock on Haren: he's an awesome pitcher. Bonderman's just more awesome-r.

BP's stock is plummeting round here

But about Bonderman... why are they letting him, maybe encouraging him, to be a strikeout pitcher? When he first came into the league, he was getting CGs and a couple SHOs if I remember correctly... now he barely goes 6-7 innings per game, same pitch count... perhaps its the improved bullpen. :dontknow:

BTW is there a place you can get sabermetrics on 2007, thats updated weekly (daily would be great)