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Monta Ellis among most overrated

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Re: Monta Ellis among most overrated 

Post#41 » by Sleepy51 » Fri Sep 3, 2010 10:36 pm

FireNellieQuick wrote:
Sleepy51 wrote:
FireNellieQuick wrote:Monta is a magnet for offball screens too.. I remember seeing that a lot last year as well. As soon as he sees the off ball screen, he just runs into it and stays there for a minute. Its almost as if he concedes defeat at the sight of it...

If he is to get better at that, he definitely needs to bulk up around the shoulders. From what I've seen, people who are afraid of that kind of contact usually have issues w/their shoulders, fearful that a bigger guy can knock it out of place.


My take was that he doesn't know how to get around a screen while maintaining vision on the ball. It's definitely fixable. Unless it is a fear of contact thing like you describe.



I'd think its the latter, only because getting around a screen shouldnt be too hard if you really want to get around it. Curry, by comparison, didnt have that much trouble getting around off-ball screens.

Its a mental thing w/o a doubt. I dont think a least a part of it is the keeping ball vision because thats a step after getting around the screen, and Monta can't even get around the screen to begin with. I'd rather he get around and be lost than just give up, which is what it looks like he does.


Not saying you're wrong, but I think it really is that he panics about breaking vision on the ball to get around the screen . . . just becuase of his body language when he's not being screened but playing off ball. He overdoes the maintaining vision thing to a fault, kind of like it's all he knows and doesn't have a strategy for the occasions where it's not the only priority. He's been backdoored a notable number of times because of it. But it could certainly be a physicality thing. He's a smallish dude. Since he's not going to be a pure point. Adding muscle should be important. He can afford to give up a little speed to get more durable.
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Re: Monta Ellis among most overrated 

Post#42 » by Souvlaki » Sat Sep 4, 2010 12:19 am

Where did all the people go who thought he should be an all-star? It was those morons who were over-rating him. 3rd option maybe, 6th man, definitely. Anything else is over-rating him.
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Re: Monta Ellis among most overrated 

Post#43 » by FNQ » Sat Sep 4, 2010 12:33 am

Says the guy who wanted to keep Buke over him.... think making him a 3rd option or less / 6th man might be underrating him?

He's obviously a NBA starter. Obviously above average, too. But he's spent 2 years proving that he:

1) isn't a #1 option
2) Isn't someone you can really depend on
3) isn't a leader

That doesnt make him a 6th man by default. There is a middle ground.
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Re: Monta Ellis among most overrated 

Post#44 » by and1GS » Sat Sep 4, 2010 12:38 am

Sleepy51 wrote:
RunMCR wrote:Most offensive players struggle with defending off ball players. Look at wade against ray in playoffs. Wade did terrible on chasing allen around.


Yeah, but Monta was getting spanked by the likes of Demarr Derozan. It's something he needs to improve on. But he was not victimized by his size to any significant degree last season. It just wasn't a factor.


It's really remarkable how Monta's small size for a SG doesn't affect his ability to guard 2s. I really can't recall a time where I caught myself saying "wow, if Monta was a couple inches taller he would have stopped that shot/pass/penetration." He's a very solid 2 to have. Less time as the primary ballhandler should do wonders for him as well.
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Re: Monta Ellis among most overrated 

Post#45 » by JimmyTD3 » Sat Sep 4, 2010 1:01 am

how the hell can he be over-rated when all anyone does is talk **** about him?
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Re: Monta Ellis among most overrated 

Post#46 » by Amazing Curry » Sat Sep 4, 2010 4:11 am

FireNellieQuick wrote:He's obviously a NBA starter. Obviously above average, too. But he's spent 2 years proving that he:

1) isn't a #1 option
2) Isn't someone you can really depend on
3) isn't a leader

That doesnt make him a 6th man by default. There is a middle ground.


Nailed it hard FNQ. Except I think 2 and 3 should be a subset of #1. If you're the #1 option for a team, you should also be the team leader. Look at Kobe, Roy, Durant, etc. Monta wasn't the one that spoke on behalf of the team, it was actually Maggette. These are also guys that you want taking the last shot in the 4th quarter. Even though Monta made a few clutch shots in the waning moments of the game, I still don't feel confident enough for him to take a big shot for the team if one is needed. By default, he should be #2 or #3 option.
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Re: Monta Ellis among most overrated 

Post#47 » by Souvlaki » Sat Sep 4, 2010 8:20 am

and1GS wrote:
Sleepy51 wrote:
RunMCR wrote:Most offensive players struggle with defending off ball players. Look at wade against ray in playoffs. Wade did terrible on chasing allen around.


Yeah, but Monta was getting spanked by the likes of Demarr Derozan. It's something he needs to improve on. But he was not victimized by his size to any significant degree last season. It just wasn't a factor.


It's really remarkable how Monta's small size for a SG doesn't affect his ability to guard 2s. I really can't recall a time where I caught myself saying "wow, if Monta was a couple inches taller he would have stopped that shot/pass/penetration." He's a very solid 2 to have. Less time as the primary ballhandler should do wonders for him as well.


He doesn't have problems with big guards per se, he has problems with quick guards that just go right around him. Oh who am I kidding, he has problems with all guards.
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Re: Monta Ellis among most overrated 

Post#48 » by Souvlaki » Sat Sep 4, 2010 8:29 am

FireNellieQuick wrote:Says the guy who wanted to keep Buke over him.... think making him a 3rd option or less / 6th man might be underrating him?

He's obviously a NBA starter. Obviously above average, too. But he's spent 2 years proving that he:

1) isn't a #1 option
2) Isn't someone you can really depend on
3) isn't a leader

That doesnt make him a 6th man by default. There is a middle ground.


Well we had one season with Buike and one season with Monta. Notice a difference? Yeah, me neither (well we lost 3 more games with Monta, but I'm not splitting hairs).

Buike is a sixth man on a good team. Monta is a sixth man on a good team. I really think he's an ideal sixth man because he can change the tempo and do his thing with the bench unit and won't disrupt the offense as much. Also his defense might not get exposed playing the second unit more. That's why I call him a 6th.
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Re: Monta Ellis among most overrated 

Post#49 » by Left*My*Heart » Sat Sep 4, 2010 3:25 pm

I think the Warriors need to be careful hanging on to Ellis too long. The guy is an undersized SG, that relies on his speed, quickness and athletic ability...those attributes will diminish with age. I think his offensive game will still be somewhat productive, but his defensive game will suffer loads...
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Re: Monta Ellis among most overrated 

Post#50 » by Sleepy51 » Sat Sep 4, 2010 3:32 pm

Left*My*Heart wrote:I think the Warriors need to be careful hanging on to Ellis too long. The guy is an undersized SG, that relies on his speed, quickness and athletic ability...those attributes will diminish with age. I think his offensive game will still be somewhat productive, but his defensive game will suffer loads...


Athletic players usually get stronger as they age in addition to losing some of their speed. It's a tradeoff.
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Re: Monta Ellis among most overrated 

Post#51 » by Left*My*Heart » Sat Sep 4, 2010 3:38 pm

But he isn't going to get any taller.
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Re: Monta Ellis among most overrated 

Post#52 » by Visigoth » Sat Sep 4, 2010 3:39 pm

Left*My*Heart wrote:But he isn't going to get any taller.




Maybe he's like Steph and he's still half-way through puberty. A guy can pray.
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Re: Monta Ellis among most overrated 

Post#53 » by Sleepy51 » Sat Sep 4, 2010 4:10 pm

Left*My*Heart wrote:But he isn't going to get any taller.


His height has yet to make any real world difference. Ray Allen is 1 inch taller.
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Re: Monta Ellis among most overrated 

Post#54 » by Visigoth » Sat Sep 4, 2010 4:18 pm

I think the ideal height ranges for positions is (of course this is more of a floor than it is a ceiling, since basketball is a tall mans sport):

1: 6'0-6'3
2: 6'4-6'6
3: 6'6-6'8
4: 6'8-6'11
5: 6'10+
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Re: Monta Ellis among most overrated 

Post#55 » by Left*My*Heart » Sat Sep 4, 2010 4:43 pm

Sleepy51 wrote:
Left*My*Heart wrote:But he isn't going to get any taller.


His height has yet to make any real world difference. Ray Allen is 1 inch taller.


Ray Allen is almost 3 inches taller @ 6'5" without shoes to Monta's 6' 2.25" without shoes...http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-dra ... os=0&sort=

Not sure what kind of wingspan Allen has, but Monta's is roughly his height.
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Re: Monta Ellis among most overrated 

Post#56 » by Sleepy51 » Sat Sep 4, 2010 4:48 pm

Left*My*Heart wrote:
Sleepy51 wrote:
Left*My*Heart wrote:But he isn't going to get any taller.


His height has yet to make any real world difference. Ray Allen is 1 inch taller.


Ray Allen is almost 3 inches taller @ 6'5" without shoes to Monta's 6' 2.25" without shoes...http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-dra ... os=0&sort=

Not sure what kind of wingspan Allen has, but Monta's is roughly his height.


I've stood next to Ray Allen. He's 6'4" exactly.
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Re: Monta Ellis among most overrated 

Post#57 » by SFWarriors62 » Sat Sep 4, 2010 5:23 pm

Monta must be shorter than 6'3, then.
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Re: Monta Ellis among most overrated 

Post#58 » by Sleepy51 » Sat Sep 4, 2010 6:20 pm

SFWarriors62 wrote:Monta must be shorter than 6'3, then.


I haven't stood next to Monta, but that's entirely possible.

Regardless, he's shown he can play bigger than his height, which is what matters.
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Re: Monta Ellis among most overrated 

Post#59 » by Mylie10 » Sat Sep 4, 2010 6:31 pm

Left*My*Heart wrote:
Sleepy51 wrote:
Left*My*Heart wrote:But he isn't going to get any taller.


His height has yet to make any real world difference. Ray Allen is 1 inch taller.


Ray Allen is almost 3 inches taller @ 6'5" without shoes to Monta's 6' 2.25" without shoes...http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-dra ... os=0&sort=

Not sure what kind of wingspan Allen has, but Monta's is roughly his height.


Monta's a better defender than Ray Allen though. Ray is on a team that values defense over offense. So their defensive scheme makes Ray more effective. Plus they have arguably the best PG defender in all of basketball.

I will say that monta looked noticeably stronger last year and I think that allowed him to guard the SG's better.

Monta could be an electric 6th man on certain teams, but really the guy's a starter. I would agree that he's a #2or3 option though.

I really wish Nellie would have called Steph's number on some last second shots. It just never materialized. Hopefully this year we'll see more of it. Whether he shoots it or makes a final pass I'd rather have the ball in Curry's hands.
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Re: Monta Ellis among most overrated 

Post#60 » by Mylie10 » Sat Sep 4, 2010 6:35 pm

Last time I checked, they play the game with shoes on....so barefeet doesn't really matter.

If monta had Rondo's wingspan he'd be a defensive all teamer.
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