Retro Player of the Year Project

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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#921 » by ronnymac2 » Sun Sep 5, 2010 3:45 am

Manuel Calavera wrote:Seems like me and you have very similar criteria.


Not really. You take the most talented (EX: Wilt at number one in 69).


ElGee- Good post. Just want to add that I didn't mean to diminish what Nash does or say that he is only valuable and not good. I think if you replace Amare with prime Kemp and Q-Rich with prime Bell, that 05 PHX team shuns the notion that their problem was they needed to play small-ball to be successful and for Nash to be successful. Nash doesn't need a specific build. He doesn't need a specific situation to be great. After Gentry took over in 09, Nash had that team running at an all-time level even with my favorite player slowing them down and hanging in the paint.

I also agree that Russell is even less reliant on circumstance than Nash- mainly because I think Russ is the better and more effective player. I (and I assume many now) have learned that Russell's ability to impact defense in that era was insanely dominant, and that he affected defense like Magic affected offense in the 80's. Maybe moreso.

Wilt changes his game so much that we really do need to take it year by year to see who played better. Wilt doesn't need to play defense at Russell's level to be more effective imo. All he needs to do is be a legit defensive anchor while being a dominant offensive anchor. He's done that in 67 and 68 so far. Didn't in 69. We'll see what happens next.


Gifted Mind- Good posts regarding Russell and criteria. Definitely agree that Bill will likely be seen as the Most Valuable Player just about every year. He's got a great argument for best as well. I mean, screw his contributions to Boston and the titles- the dude was just a great basketball player. Great talent, smarts, and athleticism. We'll see what Wilt can do. Maybe Oscar or West, too.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#922 » by Jimmy76 » Sun Sep 5, 2010 3:49 am

Going into Nash homer mode for a second what makes him more circumstance dpendent than any pg? Give him the ball sometimes and run some pick and roll like any elite pg except maybe Magic and even he fits half the criteria.

How is Russel circumstancial at all?
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#923 » by ronnymac2 » Sun Sep 5, 2010 4:11 am

Nash doesn't need a specific situation to be great. It's just that his value to a specific team increased when he made the move from Dallas to Phoenix. Really shouldn't reflect poorly on him as an individual imo. Just has to do with team build. Shaq was more valuable to his 1994 Magic than the 00 Lakers, but 00 Shaq was clearly better than 94 Shaq.

Russell? Well, you have to go a bit more extreme I guess, but...What if you placed him on the 94 Rockets? Or the 03 Spurs? (In place of Hakeem/Duncan mind you) Defense improves, but you lose your offensive constant inside. Can those teams get away with that? Probably not. Again, this doesn't mean Russell is worse than Duncan/Hakeem or that he changes as a player. He just wouldn't be as valuable to a certain team as he was to the Boston Celtics.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#924 » by Jimmy76 » Sun Sep 5, 2010 5:04 am

ronnymac2 wrote:Nash doesn't need a specific situation to be great. It's just that his value to a specific team increased when he made the move from Dallas to Phoenix. Really shouldn't reflect poorly on him as an individual imo. Just has to do with team build. Shaq was more valuable to his 1994 Magic than the 00 Lakers, but 00 Shaq was clearly better than 94 Shaq.

Russell? Well, you have to go a bit more extreme I guess, but...What if you placed him on the 94 Rockets? Or the 03 Spurs? (In place of Hakeem/Duncan mind you) Defense improves, but you lose your offensive constant inside. Can those teams get away with that? Probably not. Again, this doesn't mean Russell is worse than Duncan/Hakeem or that he changes as a player. He just wouldn't be as valuable to a certain team as he was to the Boston Celtics.

I see your point
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#925 » by Manuel Calavera » Sun Sep 5, 2010 5:40 am

ronnymac2 wrote:
Manuel Calavera wrote:Seems like me and you have very similar criteria.


Not really. You take the most talented (EX: Wilt at number one in 69).

Not exactly. I take the best player in a season, I'm not even sure what most talented means. Wilt was #1 in 1969 because I didn't hold the circumstantial stuff like his coach hating him against him, he was still the best player.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#926 » by Gifted Mind » Sun Sep 5, 2010 7:02 am

But I'm failing to see why some are purposely voting for who they think is the best player, rather than POY. There are clear differences and I think everyone knows that. Nonetheless, the people focusing on POY rather than best player end up outweighing those focusing on best player.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#927 » by bastillon » Sun Sep 5, 2010 11:29 am

ronny,

Nash needs the ball in his hands to be effective... but so does every offensive player. it's hard to produce offensively without the ball. I mean unless you can score telepathically. would be awesome actually. Nash's value is circumstantial only in that sense: if you already have a great offensive anchor like MJ, Bird, Magic, then Nash's talents become redundant. on the other hand if you put Magic and Bird on the same team, their offensive talents become redundant too, because there's only one ball. I don't know if you can hold that against Nash.

the point is: you give Nash the ball and his impact is there. hardly circumstancial.

Russell is not circumstancial at all. you put him on any team in the 60s and they play dominant defense. hey, they played dominant defense with freaking Heinsohn and almost-all-white team alongside him. you can't do much worse.

your examples about Rockets and Spurs are right, but they're, as you put it, extreme. obviously if you have an imbalanced team, you're gonna suffer unless your player is superb on both ends. if you go by that logic, though, every defensive stopper is extremely circumstancial ito value. if you put Mutombo with Rodman, Battier, Bowen and Lindsay Hunter, they'll suck. you have to come up with extreme situation that won't happen in reality to prove this point.

I don't see why Russell would hard to build around for example. he won't give you iso scoring or outside shooting, but he's epic at every other aspect of basketball. add to that I'd rather have my top offensive player to be a perimeter guy because of historically better results from smalls on offense. I'd say it's hard not to build a contender around him.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#928 » by ronnymac2 » Sun Sep 5, 2010 4:10 pm

Manuel Calavera wrote:
ronnymac2 wrote:
Manuel Calavera wrote:Seems like me and you have very similar criteria.


Not really. You take the most talented (EX: Wilt at number one in 69).

Not exactly. I take the best player in a season, I'm not even sure what most talented means. Wilt was #1 in 1969 because I didn't hold the circumstantial stuff like his coach hating him against him, he was still the best player.


How was he better than Russell though? How was he better than his teammate, Jerry West? He wasn't as dominant on defense as Russell. He wasn't even that great of an offensive anchor that year, so he doesn't gain his usual advantage over Russell. And I can't trust him to change the way he plays.

I know you're going to tell me that he shouldn't change and that he was just following a coach's orders and his coach hated him. My response is that the ten-year veteran, the highest-paid player in the league, the guy with more talent than anybody I've ever seen (who is a smart player in a technical sense, as in reading defenses for passing, etc.), should still be able to switch gears and do what is necessary on the floor for his team. 1969 Wilt didn't do that for me.


Bastillion...What is this Nash stuff? I don't hate Nash. I've repeatedly made the point that he is great regardless of the players around him and that he was the system. It is a reality that his value to a team decreases if, I don't know, say he was on an imbalanced team with a great iso scorer. Oh, like the 04 Mavs.

Put him in the triangle with Kobe or in CLE with LBJ and his value might decrease as well. Hell, put any offensive anchor with any other two or three offensive anchors and their value to that team goes down. In my opinion, Dwyane Wade and Lebron James are the two best players in the league. Neither will deserve REG SEA MVP for the next five years imo. I'm not making a statement against Nash alone.

Regarding Russell? Okay. Put him on the 2010 Bobcats. That is an unbalanced team that happened in reality. What happens then?
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#929 » by bastillon » Sun Sep 5, 2010 5:33 pm

the thing is that if Russell plays today, Bobcats don't make a trade for him and if he's there from the start, they'd build a whole lot differently with him as an anchor. that's why I thought it wasn't real.

I think we're in agreement overall.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#930 » by Jimmy76 » Sun Sep 5, 2010 6:30 pm

Honestly I think Russ makes them contenders

They go from best defensive team in the league to historically amazing and they become a dominant rebounding team. Russel is also huge upgrade offensively over Nazr; his passing out of the high post and initiating the break from all the rebounds he gets could make the bobcats a decent offensive team.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#931 » by Dr Positivity » Sun Sep 5, 2010 7:52 pm

Yeah and as mentioned, you put Russ on the Cats and it opens the door to make offensive sieve trades - like calling up the Cavs for Jamison or the Raptors for Calderon. Add those guys to Russ, Sjax, Wallace and you have an easy contender
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#932 » by Manuel Calavera » Mon Sep 6, 2010 1:07 am

ronnymac2 wrote:
Manuel Calavera wrote:
ronnymac2 wrote:
Not really. You take the most talented (EX: Wilt at number one in 69).

Not exactly. I take the best player in a season, I'm not even sure what most talented means. Wilt was #1 in 1969 because I didn't hold the circumstantial stuff like his coach hating him against him, he was still the best player.


How was he better than Russell though? How was he better than his teammate, Jerry West? He wasn't as dominant on defense as Russell. He wasn't even that great of an offensive anchor that year, so he doesn't gain his usual advantage over Russell. And I can't trust him to change the way he plays.

I know you're going to tell me that he shouldn't change and that he was just following a coach's orders and his coach hated him. My response is that the ten-year veteran, the highest-paid player in the league, the guy with more talent than anybody I've ever seen (who is a smart player in a technical sense, as in reading defenses for passing, etc.), should still be able to switch gears and do what is necessary on the floor for his team. 1969 Wilt didn't do that for me.


We definitely disagree on this, however, the criteria we're using to evaluate players after we've analyzed the situation (like you have above, and that we disagree on) is practically the same. That's all I wanted to point out.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#933 » by ronnymac2 » Mon Sep 6, 2010 6:44 am

^^^All right.

Jimmy- I don't think that offense will be good enough. Just my opinion though.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#934 » by Sedale Threatt » Tue Sep 7, 2010 5:39 pm

So, I posted a pretty decent site for buying old games the other day. And then I found this one:

http://www.nbaondvdbest.com/

Pretty jaw-dropping library of games. Dude's got almost 400 games for Magic Johnson alone.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#935 » by DumbyTheWizard » Wed Sep 8, 2010 2:22 pm

There is a problam with the DOLEM.POY site. the 67/68 season isnt there and the 66/67 is listed as 67/68.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#936 » by semi-sentient » Thu Sep 9, 2010 1:30 pm

^^^ It's been corrected now. I had missed the 67-68 season somehow and when I plugged in the numbers it threw the other seasons out of whack.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#937 » by Jimmy76 » Thu Sep 9, 2010 11:27 pm

When were people thinking of doing the top 100 again? Thanks to this project I'm confident enough in my knowledge of NBA history to participate. Next summer might be a good time since this season could be a big historical perspective impact year especially in Kobe and Lebrons legacy.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#938 » by mopper8 » Sat Sep 11, 2010 1:28 am

Jimmy76 wrote:When were people thinking of doing the top 100 again? Thanks to this project I'm confident enough in my knowledge of NBA history to participate. Next summer might be a good time since this season could be a big historical perspective impact year especially in Kobe and Lebrons legacy.


I had asked a similar question a week or so ago, probably not going to happen until next offseason. I, for one, would love to take part in another top-100, though I also would enjoy doing an all-time draft/tournament thing like we did a few years ago on this board.

That being said, I'd be happy doing either. Still, not happening for another 10 months unfortunately.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#939 » by mopper8 » Sat Sep 11, 2010 2:17 am

Looking at the dolem site, I can't help but thinking that either you guys really love D-Wade or (more likely IMO) he has been criminally underrated in real-life MVP voting. Chris Paul, just for example, has more total award shares than D-Wade does.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#940 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Sep 11, 2010 2:47 am

mopper8 wrote:Looking at the dolem site, I can't help but thinking that either you guys really love D-Wade or (more likely IMO) he has been criminally underrated in real-life MVP voting. Chris Paul, just for example, has more total award shares than D-Wade does.


The big difference is in the Shaq years, where I don't think there's any doubt that Wade was severely underrated. If memory serves, you and I both had Wade as a strong contender for the '06 MVP, but we were in a pretty small minority.
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