Retro POY '66-67 (Voting Complete)

[penbeast0]

BTW, people keep talking about Cunningham and Walker being equal or better than the Celtics frontcourt duo of Havlicek and Howell. They weren't. Cunningham improved into the 70s but at this point he was a great 6th man without the ballhandling/passing he added to his game later; nor was he Havlicek's peer defensively though he was good. As for Walker, I loved his game but look at the numbers from the 60s. Howell consistently scored more, at a higher percentage from the field, drew more foul shots, and gathered more rebounds. Walker was a better defender but offensively, Howell was superior. And, although he isn't as well remembered today, Bailey Howell is in the HOF, Chet walker isn't.

Russell beat Wilt head to head consistently (though not this year which was Wilt's to have and to hold) and Greer was superior to Sam Jones as an overall player, but Havlicek and Howell had the edge on Cunningham and Walker.

[ThaRegul8r]

although he isn't as well remembered today, Bailey Howell is in the HOF, Chet walker isn't.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-142245534.html

“It's was a great comment by Wayne Embry about how so many players are forgotten because they came before ESPN.

Wayne said Chet Walker is another who should be in the Hall, and I agree.”
- Terry Pluto (http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/blog/ind ... o_tal.html, 4th comment)

So many Celtics got in that other players from that time were overlooked.

[Dipper 13]

I guess this is what it comes down to. Greer is allegedly "easily" better than Jones, but when you compare their numbers, they look almost shockingly similar.

Jones - 32.3 mins, 8.9 FGM, 19.5 FGA, .454 FG%, .857 FT%, 4.7 RPG, 3.0 APG, 22.1 PPG
Greer - 38.6 mins, 8.7 FGM, 19.1 FGA, .459 FG%, .788 FT%, 5.3 RPG, 3.8 APG, 22.1 PPG

I'll give Greer the edge because he was three years younger. Don't think either had a rep for playing especially great defense, but I could be wrong. Both were widely admired for their professionalism. So somebody tell me -- what's the major difference between these two?

I think Greer was one of the more underrated players in NBA history. Regardless of the supporting cast, this is a season many consider to be the best of all time, both for the team and individual (Wilt). I'd think changing your game to fit in with a team would be a skill in itself. Of course we know how many times Wilt was asked to do so by his coaches. Would be nice to see the '67 team match up against one of Russell's better Celtic teams with Red on the bench.

The Palm Beach Post


"Greer plays the complete game,' said Hannum, "He's an offensive threat every minute he's in there. He has the perfect disposition, is well liked by everybody. We wouldn't have near the record this team has without Hal. You hear about our powerful front line of Wilt, Luke Jackson, Chet Walker and Billy Cunningham, but Greer's outside shooting helps make this possible."

Greer admits that the toughest guard in the league against him is Boston's K.C. Jones, but denies the rap placed on him by some writers that he gets "K.C.-itus"

"The three best games of my career have been against Boston," he notes. "I scored 50 points against them my first year in the league, 45 against them here, and 38 this season in Boston."

While he is recognized generally as one of the top offensive players in the game, few people are aware that Greer can play defense with the best. Often, Hannum will send Greer after Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, Rick Barry, or Sam Jones, at least until the 76ers' guard gets into foul difficulty.



From Dynasty's End: Bill Russell And the 1968-69 World Champion Boston Celtics


'Entering his eleventh NBA season in 1968-69, Greer had already established himself as one of the deadliest middle-distance shooters in the league, averaging over 20 points a game and climbing to number six on the all-time scoring list with 15,244 points. In 1967-68, he had even managed to overtake the offensively explosive Wilt Chamberlain for the Philadelphia team lead in scoring with a gaudy 24.1 average. "He was one of the finest open-court shooters I ever saw, for he could race down court, stop on a dime twenty feet out on the dead run and bury the shot," teammate Chet Walker later admiringly wrote.

Greer accomplished these feats despite having to endure an array of nagging injuries that might have sidelined a lesser player. "Harold would have his ankles taped," Billy Cunningham later remembered. "Then he'd have a knee brace on and a thigh pad and another pad on his elbow. He never got the attention he deserved, and maybe that was because he was a quiet man who wouldn't sit in the locker room and tell the press how he performed. He let his performance speak for itself." Sometimes, however, his performance was so spectacular that even his unalluring personality could not diminish his on-court achievements. A case in point was the 1968 NBA All-Star Game when Greer went 8 for 8 from the field while scoring a record 19 points in the third quarter. He came away with the Most Valuable Player honors along with the deep respect of his peers. "Hal needs a certain amount of recognition to show people that he's on par with Robertson and West," All-Star teammate Wilt Chamberlain said afterward.

Greer needed no convincing himself. He knew he was the equal of any elite guard in the league, and that included Sam Jones of the Celtics. "He's on a team where they work for him," Greer said. "Our team is balanced. We're a team all the way. We don't work for one guy. Sam doesn't really have to work for his shots. They work for him. He's strictly offense, I'm offense plus I move the ball, too. I move on the fast break." Always intense and demanding of himself as a player, Greer strove for nothing short of basketball perfection in every contest. "After a game," he once revealed, "I think about the mistakes I made on defense that night. Sometimes I stay up all night thinking about defense, like after I've been chasing Oscar all over the court. That's enough to keep any man awake."'

[Dipper 13]

Chet walker isn't.

I might be wrong, but wasn't he blackballed for his work in the union that led to free agency?

[ThaRegul8r]

Chet walker isn't.

I might be wrong, but wasn't he blackballed for his work in the union that led to free agency?

Yeah, he was.

[Sedale Threatt]

Dip, I agree -- Greer was great. But so was Jones. The difference between the two just isn't all that substantial.

And regarding Walker, that appears to have been the case.

A brilliant man who built his own vastly successful business, how is it possible (Oscar) Robertson was denied the chance to coach or manage a team? Because he fought the NBA establishment and won on behalf of the players and was blackballed as a result. The same occurred with one of Robertson’s co-plaintiffs on the suit, the Bulls Chet Walker. These are the men today’s players should be celebrating. They sacrificed so those who came later would have better lives in the game.

http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/smith_091123.html

[ThaRegul8r]

Warriors' record with Barry and without Thurmond: 5-11 (31.3%)

Warriors' record with Thurmond and without Barry: 3-1 (75%)

Just thought this should be noted. (To be fair, there's a larger sample size of games without Thurmond than without Barry. However, the Warriors lost their first four games without Thurmond) And looking at a common opponent: 12/20/66, San Francisco faced the Los Angeles Lakers without Barry and with Thurmond, and won 130-107, led by Thurmond’s game-high 23 points and 37 rebounds. When the Warriors faced LA with Barry and without Thurmond 2/3/67, they lost 129-80 for their worst loss of the season. Putting the facts out there.

[ElGee]

Sam Jones was recovering from an ankle infection on Nov. 4 (AP, The Day) which caused him to miss the first game @Philadelphia Oct. 29 (138-96 loss) He also missed the previous game against the Bulls (123-100 victory).

There is no mention of Jones in the next game again LA (133-108 win at home), but West nor Baylor played for LA.

Jones missed the last week of November and beginning of December with he broken a finger. The Celtics lost 3 times to Detroit in 8 days.

Jones returned to score 31 off the bench to "spark" a Celtics victory. (120-109 victory at New York Dec 3) http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=aK ... %2C4389332

"You can't lose Sam Jones 20 points a game without feeling it, and obviously losing him cuts down on our bench strength," Player-Coach Bill Russell said. "We need more offense. We're averaging just over 100 points against Detroit and that's ridiculous." (AP, Dec. 1, 1966)

I assume he missed the 101-78 win over St. Louis Nov. 24 based on the time of the finger injury and no mention of him in those game recaps, although I can't confirm it.

According to a Dec. 15 in which Siegfried said Jones should be an all-star over Hondo, Sam had missed 4 of Boston's 5 losses: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=iq ... %2C6030880

He missed a game in March against Chicago with an injured hand (117-114 loss).

Also, NBA rules permitted a team from having more than 3 all-stars. I believe Jones early season injuries alleviated the potential controversy over which Celtics to choose to the AS game.

That's 7 games, for sure, that we know Jones missed. Boston went 2-4, averaging 110.3 pgg and giving up 110.3. They averaged 119.3 ppg for the season.

Can't find the other three...

Playoffs
v. New York
G1: 38 pts (led team)
G2: 26 pts (led team)
G3: 19 pts (Hondo 29) -- only loss of series
G4: 51 pts (19-30 FG, 13-17 FT) *Russ played sparingly in second half before fouling out.

Series: 33.5 pgg

v. Phildelphia
G1: 24 pts (led team)
G2: 9 pts (Hondo 26)*
G3: 22 pts (Hondo 33)
G4: 32 pts (led team) -- only victory of series
G5: 19 pts (Hondo 38)

Series: 21.2 ppg

*This was the game in which Russell failed to sub Jones back in in the 4th and the team went cold. Simmons considers it one of his major coaching blunders.

[ThaRegul8r]

v. Phildelphia
G1: 24 pts (led team)
G2: 9 pts (Hondo 26)*
G3: 22 pts (Hondo 33)
G4: 32 pts (led team) -- only victory of series
G5: 19 pts (Hondo 38)

Series: 21.2 ppg

*This was the game in which Russell failed to sub Jones back in in the 4th and the team went cold. Simmons considers it one of his major coaching blunders.

Yep. As, I've said, he had problems balancing coaching and playing this year. I remember someone saying that Russell was an example of just why a player shouldn't try to coach and play at the same time. As was said the next year, he matured as a coach in '67-68.

[ronnymac2]

The real defensive star/offensive disaster was Nate Thurmond who not only shot worse than his guards in many if not most of his seasons, but continued to jack shots at a high pace despite being such a poor shooter. Sort of like prime Jermaine O'Neal falling in love with that weak ass turnaround only worse.

Ouch


I'm going to reward Oscar for his year. Russell doesn't get any of his usual tiebreakers this year against O. Robertson played fantastic all season long- even against the powerful Philly squad.

Russell will get third place. I like him over the Warriors.

Who do I like more, Kevin Durant or Zo (not Zo's package, but Zo's effectiveness overall imo)? Such different players...I guess I'll go with Thurmond though. He was recognized as being better and he wasn't a playoff rookie like Barry was. Although....Barry was phenomenal. 10 FTA's per game in the playoffs. I've heard Rick was more athletic back then, too. 40 ppg in the finals. 55 in one game. Damn....this is really tough.

I'll go with Nate. I am not confident with this decision.

To be honest, Elgin Baylor might belong in fourth this year. As a player. He kind of had a down year overall though.


Final Rankings:

1.) I've made a point to not name the guy I'm voting for this year because it goes without saying....
2.) Oscar Robertson
3.) Bill Russell
4.) Nate Thurmond
5.) Rick Barry

HM: Willis Reed, Elgin Baylor

[ronnymac2]

I feel as though Sam Jones is a bit like Ray Allen ito effectiveness (somewhat similar in offensive style, too). He's got the clutch rep of Reggie Miller. He hit so many huge shots over the years. I don't have the Kalb book with me right now, but IIRC, it has a list of his heroics.

[ThaRegul8r]

I feel as though Sam Jones is a bit like Ray Allen ito effectiveness (somewhat similar in offensive style, too). He's got the clutch rep of Reggie Miller. He hit so many huge shots over the years. I don't have the Kalb book with me right now, but IIRC, it has a list of his heroics.

Since I have the book:

“Sam had so many playoff heroics that I couldn’t even scrape together a complete list. Here are the ones we know for sure: ’62 Philly, Game 7 (27 points, game-winning jumper with two seconds left) . . . ’62 Lakers, do-or-die Game 6 (35 points in L.A.) . . . ’62 Lakers, Game 7 (27 points, 5 in OT) . . . ’63 Cincy, Game 7 (outscored Oscar, 47–43) . . . ’65 Philly, Game 7 (37 points in the “Havlicek steals the ball!” game) . . . ’66 Cincy, Game 5 (34 points in deciding game) . . . ’66 Lakers, Game 7 (22 points) . . . ’68 Sixers, Game 7 (22 points) . . . ’69 Lakers, must-win Game 4 (down by one, Sam hits the game-winning jumper at the buzzer) . . . ’69 Lakers, Game 7 (24 points in LA). Sam and Jerry West were known as the Association’s first two clutch scorers for a reason.”
(Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball: The NBA According to the Sports Guy [New York: Ballantine Books, 2009], p. 440).

[ElGee]

My 1967 POY Ballot:

1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Bill Russell
3. Oscar Robertson
4. Nate Thurmond
5. Rick Barry

Strong year -- I like a lot of these performances. It goes without saying that this is peak Wilt Chamberlain. Since Russell didn't have his best regular season, and dropped slightly with small things like coaching blunders and playoff performance, Chamberlain's performance is easily enough to take the top spot. The better question, which extends beyond this project, is whether 67 Chamberlain was better than Bill Russell's best season. I'm with the majority and lean toward "yes." He brought it defensively and everything I encounter about the way he played offense indicates it was near perfect -- operating as an offensive hub, passing and scoring incredibly efficiency and with volume when needed. Forget the title and the win/loss - that's just a huge year and great way to play. (And no, I don't think this is Wilt playing "Russell" better than Russell. Russ' defense was still a notch better and his offense could never be as good as what Wilt did with his offensive game in 1967.)

Russell has a case for regular season MVP (not best player). Ultimately, I didn't think there was enough to indicate how a team would be better with Oscar or Thurmond. Thurmond's giving up something defensively compared to Russell, and typically, I'd say he's a weaker overall offensive player. But I'm not sure he had a worse offensive season. Still, it's not like Thurmond and Barry + Mullins and co. teamed up to swarm a weak West, which is more of what I'd expect if Thurmond were closer to Russell.

The final spot was between Barry, Sam Jones and Baylor. Baylor didn't have a great season and couldn't throw it in the ocean in the playoffs. My thoughts on Jones are expressed in the thread, and I think later versions of Barry are better than this one despite the scoring explosion. I'm not wild about his 29 FGA's a game, but is there any argument he was the best scorer in the game this year (on a good %) in the regular season? With his skillset, I think teams are better off with Barry than Jones.

[shawngoat23]

I wish I could have spent more time on this, but I appreciate all the articles that everyone else has so diligently pulled up. I went through them, and here's what I came up with:

1. Wilt Chamberlain - Clearly the best player in the league throughout the entire season. Arguably the greatest single regular season of all-time. No one else is close this year.

2. Bill Russell - I was tempted to go with Oscar Robertson here, for his offensive brilliance and his incredible stats, but a 21-win gap was too big for me to ignore, even if Russell's teammates were much better than Robertson's. Oscar's offensive brilliance may be comparable to Russell's defensive prowess, but when I factor in the intangibles, I am inclined to go with the latter.

3. Oscar Robertson - As we move backwards in time, we are entering the seasons in which Robertson--not West--was the preeminent guard in the league.

4. Nate Thurmond - The articles and data that have been pulled up have convinced me of the fact that Thurmond (not Barry) was the most important player on the Warriors.

5. Rick Barry - But Barry was impressive nonetheless.

Honorable mentions go to Hal Greer, John Havlicek, and Sam Jones, who played key roles on the best teams in the league. I was tempted to select one of them, but I passed on them because 1) I couldn't really differentiate their similar resumes and 2) Barry received more accolades this season, and I felt that was enough for me to choose his raw production over theses three players, who nonetheless played important roles on excellent squads.

I passed on Jerry West because he didn't play enough games (66) in the regular season and only managed 18 minutes in the playoffs, where his increased production would convince me to vote him higher. Also, the Lakers were not particularly impressive this year, so Elgin Baylor (70 games played) similarly loses standing. He'll figure more prominently in my ballot in the years to come though.

[ThaRegul8r]

1. Wilt Chamberlain. 24.1 points (5th in the league [behind Rick Barry (35.6), Oscar Robertson (30.5), Jerry West (28.7) and Elgin Baylor (26.6)]) on 14.2 field-goal attempts and 68.3 percent field-goal shooting (1st), 24.2 rebounds (1st) and 7.8 assists (3rd [behind Guy Rodgers (11.2) and Robertson (10.7)]) in 45.5 minutes per game (3rd). Led league in PER (26.5), true shooting percentage (.637), win shares (21.9), offensive win shares (14.8; Phil. had league’s best offense, est. 102.8 ORtg), and win shares per 48 minutes (.285); finished second in defensive win shares (7.0) on the league’s fifth-best defense (est. 95.1 DRtg). NBA Most Valuable Player. Led 76ers to a best-ever 68-13 record.

In the postseason averaged 21.7 points, 29.1 rebounds and nine assists. Averaged 28 points, 26.5 rebounds and 11 assists against Cincinnati in the Eastern Division Semfinals, and 21.6 points, 32 rebounds and 10 assists in the Eastern Division Finals against Boston. NBA Finals MVP had the award existed. Yeah, I don't think I really need to explain this.


2. Oscar Robertson. 30.5 points (2nd [to Rick Barry (35.6)]) on 49.3 percent shooting (4th []), 87.3 percent shooting from the line (4th) and 58.3 percent true shooting (2nd [to Wilt Chamberlain (63.7%)]), 6.2 rebounds and 10.7 assists (2nd [to Guy Rodgers (11.2)]) in 43.9 minutes per game (3rd). Fourth in MVP voting.

In the postseason averaged 24.8 points on 51.6 percent shooting from the floor (7th), 89.2 percent shooting from the line (33 of 37) and 61.7 percent true shooting, 11.3 assists (led playoffs) and 4 rebounds in 45,8 minutes (4th [behind Chamberlain (47.9), Nate Thurmond (46.0) and Hal Greer (45.9)]) against the Philadelphia 76ers.

3. Nate Thurmond. 18.7 points, 21.3 rebounds (second [to Wilt Chamberlain (24.2)]) and 2.6 assists in 42.5 minutes per game (4th). Third in the league in defensive win shares (5.6 [behind Bill Russell (9.2) and Chamberlain (7.0)]) anchoring the league’s second-best defense (est. 92.9 DRtg). Finished second in the NBA MVP voting to Chamberlain. Warriors went 5-11 (41.3%) in the 16 games Thurmond missed, as opposed to 39-26 with him (60%).

In the postseason averaged 15.9 points, 23.1 rebounds and 3.1 assists in 36.0 minutes per game. Led Warriors to NBA Finals, and did best job on Chamberlain of anyone, and the Warriors did better in the postseason against the 76ers than anyone else. “It was a personal thing for us to fight back,” Thurmond said after San Francisco won Game 3. “Boston took only one game from the 76ers and as a matter of pride we want to do better than the Celtics [...].”


4. Bill Russell. 13.3 points, 21.0 rebounds (3rd in the league [behind Chamberlain (24.2) and Thurmond (21.3)]), 5.8 assists in 40.7 minutes per game. Led the league in defensive win shares (9.2) anchoring the league’s best defense (est. 91.2 DRtg); fourth in win shares (12.2 [behind Chamberlain (21.9), Robertson (17.4), and Rick Barry (14.4)]). Third in MVP voting.

Guess I'm in the minority, other than ItsMillerTime, David Stern and ronnymac. Seems like Russell is being auto-selecting for a certain position just because he's Bill Russell, which isn't any more right than auto-selecting Wilt for a certain position just because he's Wilt. Averaged a career-low 10.8 points on a career-low 36.0 percent shooting, 22.0 rebounds—his lowest to that point, and 5.6 assists in 43.3 minutes per game—his lowest since his second season. Averaged 9.5 points, 20.3 rebounds and 5 assists in the four-game series against Detroit, and 11.4 points on 35.8 percent shooting, 23.4 rebounds and 6 assists in the Eastern Division Finals against the Philadelphia 76ers. Wasn't his usual self in the postseason, which drops him. It happens. He's entitled to one in 13 years. He suffered from the dual task of coaching and playing this year, and he was two years away from retiring.


5. Rick Barry. 35.6 points (1st in the league) on 53.1 percent true shooting, 9.2 rebounds and 3.3 assists in 40.7 minutes per game. Fifth in MVP voting. In the postseason averaged 34.7 points (led playoffs) on 40.3 percent shooting and 46.7 percent true shooting, 7.5 rebounds and 3.9 assists in 40.9 minutes per game. Third in PER (20.8).

Comment: The Warriors went 3-1 without Barry (75%), and 5-11 without Thurmond (31.3%). 12/20/66, SF faced the LA Lakers without Barry and with Thurmond, and won 130-107, led by Thurmond’s game-high 23 points and 37 rebounds. “The San Francisco Warriors, who usually resemble a two-man team of Nate Thurmond and Rick Barry, played without Barry last night—and looked like a real team. With Barry, the National Basketball Assn.’s leading scorer out of the lineup with torn ankle ligaments, the Warriors placed five players in double figures as they clobbered the Los Angeles Lakers, 130-107” (Reading Eagle, Dec. 21, 1966). “With Barry, who’s taken almost 300 more shots this season than any other player in the league, absent, the other players took their turn in the firing range as the Warriors snapped a two-game losing streak and stretched their Western Division lead to 7½ games.” When the Warriors faced LA with Barry and without Thurmond 2/3/67, they lost 129-80 for their worst loss of the season. San Francisco also beat Baltimore 12/28/66 138-115 without Barry. Dec. 30 they beat Cincinnati 107-102 without Barry.

HONORABLE MENTION

Hal Greer. 22.1 points (7th in the league), 5.3 rebounds and 3.8 assists in 38.6 minutes per game (10th). Second Team All-NBA. The “Mr. Outside” to Wilt’s “Mr Inside” (The Modesto Bee, Dec. 27, 1966). In the postseason averaged 27.7 points (2nd in the playoffs [to Rick Barry (34.7)]), 5.9 rebounds and 5.3 assists (6th) in 45.9 minutes per game (3rd [behind Chamberlain (47.9) and Thurmond (46.0)]). Second in points (416), assists (79), third in win shares (1.9) and offensive win shares (1.1), fourth in defensive win shares (0.8). Philadelphia’s second-leading scorer in the regular season and leading scorer in the playoffs.

[JordansBulls]

Not much time as I am out of town, but I'd go something like this.

1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Bill Russell
4. Nate Thurmond
5. Rick Barry

[penbeast0]

Interesting that we have two teams that dominated even playing in the same conference with an .840 and .740 win percentage yet it is a team that barely reached .500 playing in a weak western conference that gets 2 of the top 5 MVP votes on the great majority of ballets. I think people underrate team success (possibly including me since I didn't have Greer in my top 5 either).

[lorak]

Greer needed no convincing himself. He knew he was the equal of any elite guard in the league, and that included Sam Jones of the Celtics. "He's on a team where they work for him," Greer said. "Our team is balanced. We're a team all the way. We don't work for one guy. Sam doesn't really have to work for his shots. They work for him. He's strictly offense, I'm offense plus I move the ball, too. I move on the fast break." Always intense and demanding of himself as a player, Greer strove for nothing short of basketball perfection in every contest. "After a game," he once revealed, "I think about the mistakes I made on defense that night. Sometimes I stay up all night thinking about defense, like after I've been chasing Oscar all over the court. That's enough to keep any man awake."'[/i]

This.
IMO Sam Jones = Reggie Miller and Hal Greer = Mitch Richmond.

[semi-sentient]

1) Wilt Chamberlain
2) Oscar Robertson
3) Nate Thurmond
4) Bill Russell
5) Rick Barry

[Sedale Threatt]

Interesting that we have two teams that dominated even playing in the same conference with an .840 and .740 win percentage yet it is a team that barely reached .500 playing in a weak western conference that gets 2 of the top 5 MVP votes on the great majority of ballets. I think people underrate team success (possibly including me since I didn't have Greer in my top 5 either).

Warriors had the third-best record in the league and made the Finals, so it's not like they didn't have any success. They just weren't as good as Philly or Boston.